Stealth counter

[Random dude.5089]

So when is the stealth issues are gonna be adressed ? why does some classes have stealth reveals and others don't ? why not give everyone abilities to reveal but in the exchange of an mount of damage or survivibility , there is a lot of traits that are never used in wvw or pvp , or even pve , why not replace them with some 3 or 5 second of reveal debuff , either it it me that is bad or everyone getting bodied by deadeye and daredevils ? they just stealth burst , stealth burst , even with a trailbrazer build i get bodied with 2.4k armor , i understand that thiefs are very squishy thats why they compensate with their stealth , im not hating on the class , it take skills to be good at what its currently doing , but it feels unfair that not even one trait some classes have that can stand a chance against that , everything i feel have counters , exept stealth , i realy hope anet adress this issues , and maybe you guys tell me what do you guys think about this stealth spam every 2 seconds , not the mention the insane amount of mobility combined with it.

[kash.9213]

Reveal is a bonus and a build choice, not a core necessity. 

Are you sure that's not an unfavorable matchup for you even without the stealth? 

Even auto attack counters people in Stealth. What are you talking about no counter?

Is it an insane amount of mobility compared to what everyone else has access to at this point? 

[Random dude.5089]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

Reveal is a bonus and a build choice, not a core necessity. 

Are you sure that's not an unfavorable matchup for you even without the stealth? 

Even auto attack counters people in Stealth. What are you talking about no counter?

Is it an insane amount of mobility compared to what everyone else has access to at this point? 

how can stealth be so worthless for you in a matchup ? there is a reason why daredevils and deadeye are the best duelers , also you know you can't hit someone if he burst and dash out and does it for a very little amount of time , lets take as an example , deadeye , he got an insane amount of range , have reveal and can stealth so many times , how im i supposed to gap close ? he just stealth reposition perfectly and hit you with a nuke and keep doing the same thing , as a caster i can't realy do much against this , i faced a big amount of good wvw players , but the only classes i struggle to deal with are thiefs , even with my 3 main roamers it doesn't matter , if i go glass canon to one shot him , no chance , if i go tanky to survive longer and analyze what i can slightly do to adapt in that situation also pointless , stealth is a major issue in pvp for some classes and i still wonder why classes have reveal and some don't , it doesn't make any sense tho.

also with the mobility i mentioned its the combination of tons of stealth uptime and mobility , not only mobility , these two combined are insane for giving a thief the advantage of repositioning without me being able to stop him or at least adapt to it, only thing that can work is predicting and thats not a core mechanic in pvp , its just pure luck.

[Sonork.2916]

The design of stealth and any counter play to it has always been terrible in GW2.   Devs don't care if it's a toxic unfun mechanic to fight against, cause they personally don't play pvp/wvw, so it doesn't effect them.

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Random dude.5089 said:

how can stealth be so worthless for you in a matchup ? there is a reason why daredevils and deadeye are the best duelers , also you know you can't hit someone if he burst and dash out and does it for a very little amount of time , lets take as an example , deadeye , he got an insane amount of range , have reveal and can stealth so many times , how im i supposed to gap close ? he just stealth reposition perfectly and hit you with a nuke and keep doing the same thing , as a caster i can't realy do much against this , i faced a big amount of good wvw players , but the only classes i struggle to deal with are thiefs , even with my 3 main roamers it doesn't matter , if i go glass canon to one shot him , no chance , if i go tanky to survive longer and analyze what i can slightly do to adapt in that situation also pointless , stealth is a major issue in pvp for some classes and i still wonder why classes have reveal and some don't , it doesn't make any sense tho.

also with the mobility i mentioned its the combination of tons of stealth uptime and mobility , not only mobility , these two combined are insane for giving a thief the advantage of repositioning without me being able to stop him or at least adapt to it, only thing that can work is predicting and thats not a core mechanic in pvp , its just pure luck.

Is all your stuff single target? As a caster, cast some stuff. You can still hit them while they're in stealth. Cleave or bomb where they should be or where their stealth signs on the ground imply they went. 

Don't go class cannon. They probably want to spend less time where things can go wrong and are probably less equipped for it than you, unless you packed your WvW bags with useless weight. 

Mobility is the mitigation for them and it can cost heavily in resource pools. If you made them spend it then good for you. If they're sustaining mobility, then what are they doing with their life and why are you letting them do that or even sticking around if that's what's up? I'm not going to chip away at some bunker who has a bunch of passive stuff going off to sustain them and counter my sequences, that's not a great way to spend my time as a Specter so I'll bounce or just figure it out. Or I'll get killed but somehow not cry around for an entire class to be gutted.

Edited July 20, 2023 by kash.9213

[Exzen.2976]

6 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Is all your stuff single target? As a caster, cast some stuff. You can still hit them while they're in stealth. Cleave or bomb where they should be or where their stealth signs on the ground imply they went. 

Don't go class cannon. They probably want to spend less time where things can go wrong and are probably less equipped for it than you, unless you packed your WvW bags with useless weight. 

Mobility is the mitigation for them and it can cost heavily in resource pools. If you made them spend it then good for you. If they're sustaining mobility, then what are they doing with their life and why are you letting them do that or even sticking around if that's what's up? I'm not going to chip away at some bunker who has a bunch of passive stuff going off to sustain them and counter my sequences, that's not a great way to spend my time as a Specter so I'll bounce or just figure it out. Or I'll get killed but somehow not cry around for an entire class to be gutted.

Plenty of skills require a target in order to be usable. How do you use them on an enemy in stealth? And any decent thief will just wait for you to waste cooldowns etc.

Also, reveal should 100% be available to all professions, having some able to and some not is a completely unfair design.

With regards to mobility, yes, you can run, but thief's inherent mobility advantage means they will likely catch you in the end and you will need to blow your cooldowns/resources to try and escape anyway. 

Let's also consider that bound daredevil can stealth up with no possible counterplay (and is annoyingly getting way more popular) because its on dodge and DE can also do the same. 

If stealth in general is balanced, then the stupid bandaid fixes of revealed from towers and sentries should then also be removed - I fully appreciate how annoying that is when roaming around. 

[Junkpile.7439]

Stealth counter is run inside tower or keep

[Random dude.5089]

50 minutes ago, kash.9213 said:

Is all your stuff single target? As a caster, cast some stuff. You can still hit them while they're in stealth. Cleave or bomb where they should be or where their stealth signs on the ground imply they went. 

Don't go class cannon. They probably want to spend less time where things can go wrong and are probably less equipped for it than you, unless you packed your WvW bags with useless weight. 

Mobility is the mitigation for them and it can cost heavily in resource pools. If you made them spend it then good for you. If they're sustaining mobility, then what are they doing with their life and why are you letting them do that or even sticking around if that's what's up? I'm not going to chip away at some bunker who has a bunch of passive stuff going off to sustain them and counter my sequences, that's not a great way to spend my time as a Specter so I'll bounce or just figure it out. Or I'll get killed but somehow not cry around for an entire class to be gutted.

I mean i legit explained all the common sense in what i typed before , and im not gonna repeat myself , cause ur clearly entitled to your opinion , also i understand that ur probably a thief main , and i adressed that with respect , yet you bring out the "crying" part , which ofc everytime someone trying to adress a problem in game , its called crying ofc , even tho people complained about stealth being ovepowered since ages , and im clearly stating that we need classes that reveal for a short balanced period not to remove thief stealth so i can have some counterplay and enjoy fighting the class , not stand afk in the middle while hes circling arround me in another multiverse.

also ur replying with "situations" i can do to somehow counter it , you can legit encounter a deadeye that goes melee range and him just being so bad at the game and i promise that you would reply with " SEE ITS FAIR U KILLED HIM ITS NOT THAT BROKEN".

[kash.9213]

1 hour ago, Exzen.2976 said:

Plenty of skills require a target in order to be usable. How do you use them on an enemy in stealth? And any decent thief will just wait for you to waste cooldowns etc.

Also, reveal should 100% be available to all professions, having some able to and some not is a completely unfair design.

With regards to mobility, yes, you can run, but thief's inherent mobility advantage means they will likely catch you in the end and you will need to blow your cooldowns/resources to try and escape anyway. 

Let's also consider that bound daredevil can stealth up with no possible counterplay (and is annoyingly getting way more popular) because its on dodge and DE can also do the same. 

If stealth in general is balanced, then the stupid bandaid fixes of revealed from towers and sentries should then also be removed - I fully appreciate how annoying that is when roaming around. 

So the problem is that you had to blow all of your cooldowns....after they blew all of their cooldowns...chasing you for some reason instead of the usual complaint on here that people can't catch them. Okay.

Shadow Meld was gutted anyway but sure, I think it would be fair if everyone had access to at least one Reveal. But that better be a legit build choice and not a giveaway.

If you can see where they're stealthing with Bound, then you can counter. 

Stealth is balanced. Bring the energy every time Anet guts ancillary core aspects of class over knee jerk reactions. 

24 minutes ago, Random dude.5089 said:

I mean i legit explained all the common sense in what i typed before , and im not gonna repeat myself , cause ur clearly entitled to your opinion , also i understand that ur probably a thief main , and i adressed that with respect , yet you bring out the "crying" part , which ofc everytime someone trying to adress a problem in game , its called crying ofc , even tho people complained about stealth being ovepowered since ages , and im clearly stating that we need classes that reveal for a short balanced period not to remove thief stealth so i can have some counterplay and enjoy fighting the class , not stand afk in the middle while hes circling arround me in another multiverse.

also ur replying with "situations" i can do to somehow counter it , you can legit encounter a deadeye that goes melee range and him just being so bad at the game and i promise that you would reply with " SEE ITS FAIR U KILLED HIM ITS NOT THAT BROKEN".

Why wouldn't a DE be in melee range? The other range skills are good but Death's Judgement shouldn't land unless people aren't paying attention. 

You literally came out of the gate with your ideal situation for your argument. You joking? 

Edited July 20, 2023 by kash.9213

[bq pd.2148]

47 minutes ago, Exzen.2976 said:

If stealth in general is balanced, then the stupid bandaid fixes of revealed from towers and sentries should then also be removed - I fully appreciate how annoying that is when roaming around. 

i am pretty sure the tower/sentry reveal is not a means to balance 1 vs 1 fights that include stealth users, more for larger groups that will stack long stealth with much less resource costs and burst down other larger groups + ofc the fact that marked without reveal used to bug a lot and anet couldn't fix it.

for fighting bound users try using immobilize, that hampers the ability to dodge and usually will require a utility/heal use to break for the thief as you cannot run bound + dash, its either or.

the only reason i would join WvW with thief now is to abuse the shadow portal until Anet will likely one day put the cooldown for it on activation and not on preperation, for most fights are group fights now and any other profession can provide more to that, especially when group size increases.

 

 

15 minutes ago, Random dude.5089 said:

I mean i legit explained all the common sense in what i typed before , and im not gonna repeat myself , cause ur clearly entitled to your opinion , also i understand that ur probably a thief main , and i adressed that with respect , yet you bring out the "crying" part , which ofc everytime someone trying to adress a problem in game , its called crying ofc , even tho people complained about stealth being ovepowered since ages , and im clearly stating that we need classes that reveal for a short balanced period not to remove thief stealth so i can have some counterplay and enjoy fighting the class , not stand afk in the middle while hes circling arround me in another multiverse.

also ur replying with "situations" i can do to somehow counter it , you can legit encounter a deadeye that goes melee range and him just being so bad at the game and i promise that you would reply with " SEE ITS FAIR U KILLED HIM ITS NOT THAT BROKEN".

i dont think you will get to a point that you can reliably kill thieves just because you are more 'skilled' as the class is inherently designed to pick their fights.
without much staying power to trade blows, it has always been: stealth, evade, teleport. neither of those will let you hit them and they are all in their own way annoying to fight against. for what you want thief would have to be reworked from the ground up.

[Exzen.2976]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

So the problem is that you had to blow all of your cooldowns....after they blew all of their cooldowns...chasing you for some reason instead of the usual complaint on here that people can't catch them. Okay.

Shadow Meld was gutted anyway but sure, I think it would be fair if everyone had access to at least one Reveal. But that better be a legit build choice and not a giveaway.

If you can see where they're stealthing with Bound, then you can counter. 

Stealth is balanced. Bring the energy every time Anet guts ancillary core aspects of class over knee jerk reactions. 

Why wouldn't a DE be in melee range? The other range skills are good but Death's Judgement shouldn't land unless people aren't paying attention. 

You literally came out of the gate with your ideal situation for your argument. You joking? 

We are never going to agree on this completely.

I play and used to main thief, so understand how they work. I also play classes that are hardcountered by stealth abusing thief builds without having any reveal options. So I feel like I have a good understanding of both sides. 

I know how to beat thief in general amd what to counter. The problem is some classes/builds literally have 0 counterplay, which shouldn't exist. Stealth however is just one of many unbalanced issues in wvw. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Exzen.2976

[Random dude.5089]

1 hour ago, kash.9213 said:

So the problem is that you had to blow all of your cooldowns....after they blew all of their cooldowns...chasing you for some reason instead of the usual complaint on here that people can't catch them. Okay.

Shadow Meld was gutted anyway but sure, I think it would be fair if everyone had access to at least one Reveal. But that better be a legit build choice and not a giveaway.

If you can see where they're stealthing with Bound, then you can counter. 

Stealth is balanced. Bring the energy every time Anet guts ancillary core aspects of class over knee jerk reactions. 

Why wouldn't a DE be in melee range? The other range skills are good but Death's Judgement shouldn't land unless people aren't paying attention. 

You literally came out of the gate with your ideal situation for your argument. You joking? 

Finaly your talking with common sense and actualy being logical with the whole point of this post , i just need that when i log on into the game and i decide to play pvp , i wanna see myself being able to choose whatever class i want , and have the option to counter stealth since being invisible is something very hard to deal with , im not gonna force myself to play a hunter just for the sic em ability cause i wanna counter thiefs , also i legit typed "why not give everyone abilities to reveal but in the exchange of an amount of damage or survivibility loss" , so yes you legit agreed on my point which i apreciate that u looked at it with a logical intent not just cause you love your class.

also yes the deadeye thing was an entitlement jokes.

[DontPaniC.8740]

Stand near tower or sentry and let Anet do it for you like everyone else.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, DontPaniC.8740 said:

Stand near tower or sentry and let Anet do it for you like everyone else.

Thieves can still stealth there with 40%+ uptime you know.

But if thieves want to argue stealth is fine, we're back to one main point:

Delete the smokefield for pistol 5. That has nothing to do with stealth balance, right? The skill doesnt even apply stealth!

If a thief argues against that well they show their true colors.

[Andy.5981]

16 hours ago, Random dude.5089 said:

why does some classes have stealth reveals and others don't ?

If I recall correctly there are only two classes that do not have any reveal abilities - Elementalist and Mesmer. Everyone else has the ability to use a specialisation, equip a utility skill or press an F skill (Dragonhunter's Spear of Justice or Engineer Detection Pulse). That's hardly some, it is most.
 

14 hours ago, Random dude.5089 said:

how im i supposed to gap close ? he just stealth reposition perfectly and hit you with a nuke and keep doing the same thing , as a caster i can't realy do much against this

So you play a light class? Mesmer, Elementalist or Necromancer? Two of those classes are very mobile, its a case of equipping the right skills. Even Necromancer has a limited port if you equp Summon flesh worm.

Interestingly those two very mobile light or "caster" classes as you call them, are the very ones that don't seem to have reveals. They're also two classes that do very very well in a roaming situation in WvW in the right hands and can put out a massive amount of damage and can disengage easily.

Lastly before you go off on one. I have two Ranger (they are not called Hunters), two Warriors, two Thieves, a Necromancer, an Elementalist, a Mesmer, two Revenants, two Engineers and a Guardian, all of which I play in most game modes to varying degrees of success. I know how frustrating it can be when you cannot counter something, but hey I refer you to the next paragraph.

There shouldn't beone class that should be able to counter everything in the game all of the time. It is rock/paper/scissors. If you are dying to someone its either because your spec isn't right, their spec is better, your skill is lesser or they're a better player.

You have to be strategic with your utility skills and specialisations. If you are running into the same thief time after time after time and you are dying the same way time after time after time, then experiece should tell you to go in a different direction or alter your build/swap characters.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Andy.5981

[Exzen.2976]

13 minutes ago, Andy.5981 said:

If I recall correctly there are only two classes that do not have any reveal abilities - Elementalist and Mesmer. Everyone else has the ability to use a specialisation, equip a utility skill or press an F skill (Dragonhunter's Spear of Justice or Engineer Detection Pulse). That's hardly some, it is most.
 

So you play a light class? Mesmer, Elementalist or Necromancer? Two of those classes are very mobile, its a case of equipping the right skills. Even Necromancer has a limited port if you equp Summon flesh worm.

Interestingly those two very mobile light or "caster" classes as you call them, are the very ones that don't seem to have reveals. They're also two classes that do very very well in a roaming situation in WvW in the right hands and can put out a massive amount of damage and can disengage easily.

Lastly before you go off on one. I have two Ranger (they are not called Hunters), two Warriors, two Thieves, a Necromancer, an Elementalist, a Mesmer, two Revenants, two Engineers and a Guardian, all of which I play in most game modes to varying degrees of success. I know how frustrating it can be when you cannot counter something, but hey I refer you to the next paragraph.

There shouldn't beone class that should be able to counter everything in the game all of the time. It is rock/paper/scissors. If you are dying to someone its either because your spec isn't right, their spec is better, your skill is lesser or they're a better player.

You have to be strategic with your utility skills and specialisations. If you are running into the same thief time after time after time and you are dying the same way time after time after time, then experiece should tell you to go in a different direction or alter your build/swap characters.

It's not about "countering" it's about having some counterplay. It's not the same thing. You see the "Rock/paper/scissors" thing thrown around a lot. You should at least have a chance to outplay someone - even if they have an advantage. It shouldn't be a case of "oh, there is a good d/p thief, I might as well just /sit and wait to die".

And with regards to your point about reveal, 2 whole classes (core + 3 elites) and many of the specs don't have reveals, kinda most imo. That's not fair at all.

The point is, you shouldnt have to swap characters just because a thief is around.

[Random dude.5089]

2 hours ago, DontPaniC.8740 said:

Stand near tower or sentry and let Anet do it for you like everyone else.

so you want me to to hug a tower  the whole time im playing pvp ? alright sounds fair , guess i'll stay afk at base just cause thiefs , i hope you were joking when you said that lol

[Aeolus.3615]

wait til Anet shares stealth for every one as well... cause balance right?

Edited July 21, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Random dude.5089]

46 minutes ago, Andy.5981 said:

If I recall correctly there are only two classes that do not have any reveal abilities - Elementalist and Mesmer. Everyone else has the ability to use a specialisation, equip a utility skill or press an F skill (Dragonhunter's Spear of Justice or Engineer Detection Pulse). That's hardly some, it is most.
 

So you play a light class? Mesmer, Elementalist or Necromancer? Two of those classes are very mobile, its a case of equipping the right skills. Even Necromancer has a limited port if you equp Summon flesh worm.

Interestingly those two very mobile light or "caster" classes as you call them, are the very ones that don't seem to have reveals. They're also two classes that do very very well in a roaming situation in WvW in the right hands and can put out a massive amount of damage and can disengage easily.

Lastly before you go off on one. I have two Ranger (they are not called Hunters), two Warriors, two Thieves, a Necromancer, an Elementalist, a Mesmer, two Revenants, two Engineers and a Guardian, all of which I play in most game modes to varying degrees of success. I know how frustrating it can be when you cannot counter something, but hey I refer you to the next paragraph.

There shouldn't beone class that should be able to counter everything in the game all of the time. It is rock/paper/scissors. If you are dying to someone its either because your spec isn't right, their spec is better, your skill is lesser or they're a better player.

You have to be strategic with your utility skills and specialisations. If you are running into the same thief time after time after time and you are dying the same way time after time after time, then experiece should tell you to go in a different direction or alter your build/swap characters.

yes i play light classes aka memser and eli , i think i said enough about how things should be balanced out against stealth , the point your making is that "There shouldn't be one class that should be able to counter everything in the game" is questionable , like im talking about stealth , like how many times i gotta say that , there is other classes that also perform as good as memser and eli , and they got reveal ? so whats your point here ? that mesmer and eli are the gods of pvp and they should at least have less things to counter ?

I didn't play all classes so i don't know how some classes work in terme of reveal , but i looked up and what do u mean the majority of classes have ? , to break it down for you , here is the list of classes that have reveal , correct me of im wrong :

Core necro /dragonhunter / herald /core warrior /spellbreaker / core ranger / core engi / deadeye.

And most of those are elite specs , so if u use another elite spec i suppose we are back at the whole point of this post.

I also stated the amount of reveal we can get with the trade of damage or survivibility , and i stated a balanced amount of reveal , alright cool 3 to 5 second reveal , guess what the thief gonna do , yes run away unless you got mobility to folow up , so hes forced to use his defensives until it vanishes and go invis again , its so simple , he can play arround it and its not game changing for him , but for me i can't do that , cause i don't have a stealth counter , so i have to wonder where he is gonna pop up and burst me and go invis again , nothing helps in this situation but  to run away , unless ike i said , glass canon and somehow nuke him down , which hes gonna nuke me down before i even react if i go with no vitality.

 

[Random dude.5089]

4 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

wait til Anet shares stealth for every one as well... cause balance right?

yeah the balanced nuclear bomber deadeye that abuse the stealth and rage combo , cause balanced right ?

[senftube.6081]

and the next stealth QQ thread.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Sry bit one simple fact renders this thread moot, when it comes to gw2's pvp modes any class thats overpowered or even just very effective results in severe bandwagon behavior from the pvp community, always has. With this in mind when I'm in wvw I see a estimated 3 guardians,necros,engine,rangers(so many), revs and so on for every 1 thief so that tells me thieves aren't overpowered nor lack any type of counter. The main activity in wvw is zerg combat of which thief is at or close to bottom of the tier list as far as being effective for such, this is ok cuz class due to its archetype lends to a roaming playstyle, u don't see thieves asking to be as effective in zerg type fights as a fb, scrapper, rev or scourge do you?

I agree each class/spec should have access to a build choice that includes a reveal although their are trap reveals all classes can buy. In the end u just need to improve on ur class as thieves are definitely counterable, I have killed many thieves in wvw on almost every class, they usually just run away or die....so wtf cares lol.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Psycoprophet.8107

[DontPaniC.8740]

42 minutes ago, Random dude.5089 said:

so you want me to to hug a tower  the whole time im playing pvp ? alright sounds fair , guess i'll stay afk at base just cause thiefs , i hope you were joking when you said that lol

I'm sorry I thought this was the WvW forums my bad. I should have checked.

[Sirvaleen.1379]

I personally would appreciate if the little reveal skills we do have actually worked consistently and had some appropriate cooldowns.

Having reveal skills that can sometimes not work at all because of latency (or is it because of that rock just there ?) is one thing. But using those skills when they can also - from design - be blocked, evaded, invuln'ed and have 20+s CDs is just making the experience extremely frustrating.

Don't want to rework stealth in WvW ? Rework those skills. Create more, it would add gameplay diversity while you're at it. Thanks.

[flyingplanet.6912]

Sorry to say to you OP but ever since anet nerfed stealth duration to the ground and pretty much removed shadow meld so it can't remove reveal (now it's just a 2 sec stealth duration skill what a joke !), it is completely l2p issue.
There are tons builds that hardcounters stealth w/ reveal and if you want "reveal" to be added to whatever build your are using then i have nothing to say lol.
You see this is the reason why I partly understand anet's standpoint on current balance patches because previously so many people wanted anet to spoonfeed them without exploring other viable counters.
Maybe this is also reason why anet is adding quickness and alac to all classes at the expanse of class identity because there are people who, like you OP, wanted those boons to be added to their favorite skills.
Yes there were some builds that to my eyes were super oppressive but instead of crying at this forum, I actually played the build for myself and see how other good players counter it. 
So how about OP you play this crazy stealth build that you are having difficulty with and see for yourself? If whatever you are saying is right then feel free to post video. That way it is more likely to get nerfed

Edited July 21, 2023 by flyingplanet.6912