Stealth counter

[ilMasa.2546]

You built up initiative either to
1) reduce even more your cds on abilities: so you can have a moments of full burst and spammage
2) stealth opens up when you get above a certain amount of your initiative(60%,70%?)

Like think about having to farm initiative,while you farm inititative you are storing that initiative untill you reach max ini,when you reach max inititive,you  can then use it all as you used .Again im talking when in combat.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[bq pd.2148]

3 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

You built up initiative either to
1) reduce even more your cds on abilities: so you can have a moments of full burst and spammage
2) stealth opens up when you get above a certain amount of your initiative(60%,70%?)

understood the first point, not sure how stealth 'opens up' do i get an f3 for that?

thus far while it does sound interesting i don't see how that will reduce the complains one bit, thief still does gain 0 staying power from your suggestions so far therefor they will remain as slippery along the complains that come with it, potentially dysfunctional so that you see fewer of them but thats about it.

[Chips.7968]

Unsure why re-working thief initiative and it's entire mechanic is supposed to sort out stealth - which is what the thread is actually about. Instead of addressing stealth in the game (from any / all classes, whether traits, runes, etc) it's about thieves and initiative.

Very odd.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Chips.7968

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

12 minutes ago, Chips.7968 said:

Unsure why re-working thief initiative and it's entire mechanic is supposed to sort out stealth - which is what the thread is actually about. Instead of addressing stealth in the game (from any / all classes, whether traits, runes, etc) it's about thieves and initiative.

Very odd.

I am 90% sure "Rework stealth" is just a carrier for the subtext of "Thief is annoying" since only three other classes have stealth and those applications are limited.  People refining their arguments to thief traitlines and initiative reworks instead of global changes is proof of this.

That aside, Thief is the class largely affected by this rework proposition. The other classes have access to the mechanic as a kind of convenience aspect, Thief is built upon it. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[ilMasa.2546]

25 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

understood the first point, not sure how stealth 'opens up' do i get an f3 for that?

thus far while it does sound interesting i don't see how that will reduce the complains one bit, thief still does gain 0 staying power from your suggestions so far therefor they will remain as slippery along the complains that come with it, potentially dysfunctional so that you see fewer of them but thats about it.

Sorry i was editing the previous message.

Quote

When you are in combat autoattacks and weapons skills give inititative, you are storing that initiative untill you reach max ini,when you reach max inititive,you  can then use it all as you used .Again im talking when in combat.

I forgot @bq pd.2148

Quote

understood the first point, not sure how stealth 'opens up' do i get an f3 for that?

Take as an example blinding pownder: when you are not at max initiative you only get the blind,when you use it at max initiative you also get the stealth

 
I see no problems in having huge mobility and being able to spam stealth to engage the target,it's how a stealth class is supposed to operate.The moment you enter in combat tho,you shuld get some restrictions to being able to spam stealth whenever you want.

Edited August 2, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

I see no problems in having huge mobility and being able to spam stealth to engage the target,it's how a stealth class is supposed to operate.The moment you enter in combat tho,you shuld get some restrictions to being able to spam stealth whenever you want.

I'm fine with picking someone to commit to and then using low stealth to fight that person, but I promise if it's done this way I'll never fight anyone I am not going to have a chance to win against and the complaints about not being able to respond to thieves dropping in and mixing people like a fruit salad will remain.

This is basically how I and most thieves worth their salt play already. Are there people using high stealth durations mid fight right now, even with the initiative changes putting a vice grip on how often they can use it? 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[bq pd.2148]

50 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

I see no problems in having huge mobility and being able to spam stealth to engage the target,it's how a stealth class is supposed to operate.The moment you enter in combat tho,you shuld get some restrictions to being able to spam stealth whenever you want.

but i cannot just stealth whenever i want, i still do not have that f3 stealth on/off toggle.  stealth is not free, in fact i am often annoyed especially when on deadeye that i have to waste a dodge just for a slim chance to reset my malice*. i also dont think your suggestion changes anything about the disengage potential but very much about the engage potential of the thief, very unlike what you say the intent of the change is.

*would be a much better trade if i lost malice on a miss.

edit:

51 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

I forgot @bq pd.2148

Take as an example blinding pownder: when you are not at max initiative you only get the blind,when you use it at max initiative you also get the stealth

while that works for this particular skill (tho i already often run without it, not sure i would use it with such a change), how about shadow meld which only gives 2 second stealth on a 45 second cooldown - no other effect. how about cloak and dagger? and what about smoke + leap/blast combo, which are also used by engi/ranger?

if you need to be at max ini to get any stealth effect from yourself, then it will not let you 'spamm stealth to engage target' but only to disengage, as with your suggestion the ini will only be there after annihilating the target.

Edited August 2, 2023 by bq pd.2148

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

43 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I feel like if you cry about stealth for 11 years, the core mechanic doesn't get changed, and the game remains not inundated with thief players, there isn't actually a problem with stealth. 

It may be a frustrating mechanic for some players to interact with, but those players knew (or should have known) how stealth functioned upon starting the game.  Consider also:

• all but three classes have revealed access,
• WvW is full of mechanics that disable stealth that anyone can carry or utilize
• not having access to stealth disables both the thief's damage and their mitigation because stealth is intertwined with their class identity and they are expected to use it
• none of the people consistently angry about stealth offer solutions that that would leave thief in a playable state, show some kind of understanding about how the thief class generally works, or grasp/admit that thief as a class is difficult to get results with. If you are unwilling to do that, your suggestions will continue to be ignored, because Arenanet wants people to play thief. They made the class. I've seen everything proposed from just "Remove the black powder field" to "Give thief skill cooldowns" without any consideration about how damage mitigation or skill damage/functionality would need to change to work in this proposed scenario. The longer you do that, the longer you will be mad when some joker who's been playing thief for years dances on you then leaves because you refuse to learn how it works.

It's fine if you don't like the mechanic, but that's all it is. If it were broken or unhealthy you would be getting jumped far more often by thieves than you currently are (remember what happened with the sunspot glitch?). If you want to remove the mechanic entirely, you should have more understanding of thief (beyond bitter resentment, at least) to suggest changes that allow the people who play that class to continue to play. 

11 years and still no fixes = deletion and full rework from scratch, simple.
Teef roamers jumped on willbender, so it's the same as teef but they changed stealth to boons, woo hoo such changes...
How many times do I have to repeat myself, that tools in WvW that "Marks" people is to kitten show enemies on map so everyone will know that abc blob is kitten xyz place, not to kitten deal with some annoying roaming teefs in middle of nowhere? On top of that you need to use an outside utility(traps) that uses outside source(supplies) to fight a player, where's here a logic? Nowhere.
I wrote it multiple times already: stealth duration maximum 3 seconds after which you gain 3 seconds of revealed which cannot be removed, period. Stealth can't be prolonged beyond these 3 seconds by any means. This will make it more "acceptable" in long run, still will be busted with kitten load of mobility. 
Beside few skills in the game that grant more than 3s skills would need some rework, beyond that there should be no compensation for that change to teef class.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Just now, bq pd.2148 said:

but i cannot just stealth whenever i want, i still do not have that f3 stealth on/off toggle.  stealth is not free, in fact i am often annoyed especially when on deadeye that i have to waste a dodge just for a slim chance to reset my malice. i also dont think your suggestion changes anything about the disengage potential but very much about the engage potential of the thief, very unlike what you say the intent of the change is.

same braincells.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

14 minutes ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

11 years and still no fixes = deletion and full rework from scratch, simple.
Teef roamers jumped on willbender, so it's the same as teef but they changed stealth to boons, woo hoo such changes...
How many times do I have to repeat myself, that tools in WvW that "Marks" people is to kitten show enemies on map so everyone will know that abc blob is kitten xyz place, not to kitten deal with some annoying roaming teefs in middle of nowhere? On top of that you need to use an outside utility(traps) that uses outside source(supplies) to fight a player, where's here a logic? Nowhere.
I wrote it multiple times already: stealth duration maximum 3 seconds after which you gain 3 seconds of revealed which cannot be removed, period. Stealth can't be prolonged beyond these 3 seconds by any means. This will make it more "acceptable" in long run, still will be busted with kitten load of mobility. 
Beside few skills in the game that grant more than 3s skills would need some rework, beyond that there should be no compensation for that change to teef class.

It's a pipe dream, Demigod. They won't rework the whole system from scratch. The game shipped with it.

You thinking that there should be no compensation to thief players despite limiting them to a predictable stealth duration followed by a lockdown on reuse will keep you mad at this interaction forever.

a medium armor, 11k HP class who's sole defense is 3 seconds of not being seen (through which they can still be hit) the expiry of which locks them out of that option with nothing else? Come on man. Wear your resentment on your sleeve less.

If you tried to learn the class earnestly, your viewpoint would be markedly more balanced, and we would probably have grounds to agree, but as long as you're trying to stack iron weights on thief for daring to be invisible you're not going to get much follow through. 

For all your concerns thief remains like... the third least played class across all classes. If you want to make the case that theyre busted, you're going to have to know them better than you do. 

I have no issue with playing fair, personally, but I don't think you know what that means. If you want to learn how to play it so you can temper your expectations for balance a bit and you're on NA, let me know. 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

9 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It's a pipe dream, Demigod. They won't rework the whole system from scratch. The game shipped with it.

You thinking that there should be no compensation to thief players despite limiting them to a predictable stealth duration followed by a lockdown on reuse will keep you mad at this interaction forever.

a medium armor, 11k HP class who's sole defense is 3 seconds of not being seen (through which they can still be hit) the expiry of which locks them out of that option with nothing else? Come on man. Wear your resentment on your sleeve less.

If you tried to learn the class earnestly, your viewpoint would be markedly more balanced, and we would probably have grounds to agree, but as long as you're trying to stack iron weights on thief for daring to be invisible you're not going to get much follow through. 

For all your concerns thief remains like... the third least played class across all classes. If you want to make the case that theyre busted, you're going to have to know them better than you do. 

I have no issue with playing fair, personally, but I don't think you know what that means. If you want to learn how to play it so you can temper your expectations for balance a bit and you're on NA, let me know. 

 

 

Why you're misleading so much with information? Teef have abundant amount of teleports and evades and blinds and interrupts on top of stealth, why you don't mention it in the slightest? You're blatantly lying to defend busted mechanic at this point, that's ridiculous. I gave you the most balanced idea for stealth (which should just get deleted, because game engine can't keep up with it) to make it only last 3s followed by 3s revealed and you go "yadayada", what is wrong with you? In 3 seconds teefs can get out of combat and still have enough time to make sandwich and that's no? Stealth should give time to reposition and opportunity and nothing beyond that. Mind games? You still have a luxury to choose: run away, attack within 1s, attack within 2s, attack within 3s. Do you have slightest idea how much distance you can cover in that time frame? 
They are busted, just because people don't abuse it, doesn't mean it's not busted.

[senftube.6081]

14 hours ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

boons on demand when entering/exiting stealth..
 

?

[joneirikb.7506]

So, since the topic is about having ways to make "reveal" into a more accessible option spread out among more classes. And preferably in a way that isn't completely on/off regarding shutting down stealth completely with no counter-play back from the thief's side.

* One thing to consider is to add the PVP change that Reveal lasts 4 seconds instead of 3

From a quick look over at the wiki, current skills that adds Reveal:
* Warrior - "On My Mark!" (shout)
* Spellbreaker - Sight Beyond Sight (medi)
* Spellbreaker - Magebane Tether (trait)
* Dragonhunter - Lights Judgement (trap)
* Dragonhunter - Spear of Justice (virtue)
* Herald - Gaze of Darkness
* Deadeye - Malicious Death's Judgement
* Deadeye - Binding Shadow (cantrip)
* Ranger - "Sic Em!" (shout)
* Engineer - Detection Pulse (toolbelt)
* Engineer - Controlled Analysis
* Engineer - Invisible Analysis
* Necromancer/Shroud - Tainted Shackles

Misc:
* Arrow Cart - Toxic Unveilling Volley (Mastery5)
* Target Painter Trap
* Target Painter

Now, most classes have some access too reveal, though a lot of them would have to go into specific elite's to get access to them, or change their builds around to fit them in to various degrees.

Personally I don't think locking reveal to specific skills are ideal, as it feels more like a band-aid system tacked onto the combat system, instead of having a system that would allow you to play and counter-play more naturally with your existing build, but that you could build heavier or weaker towards. We have the same issue with conditions to some extent, that you need some condi removal in a build, you can build heavy toward condi removal but usually at the cost of the build as a whole.

----

So I'd like to re-mention the idea I suggested earlier, to tie Reveal to the combo system. The combo system is available to all classes, but not always every combo field.

Here's two different takes on how to use the combo system to apply Reveal:
* If you walk into certain Combo Fields you automatically gain revealed.
* If anyone makes a combo of any type in certain Combo Fields, you automatically apply reveal in X range.

I'd suggest using Fire + Light combo fields as they're both thematic/intuitive, as well as available to the majority of classes (the only one that doesn't have access to one of the two is Thief. This could be remedied by also adding Ethereal). That said, I can't say how much access each class has to each of those, a brief glance through the wiki and there are a lot of access to Fire+Light, but I didn't sit down and double check how even that distribution was.

The majority of builds should likely have access to one of these, through either weapons, utils, profession mechanics or traits etc, so it should be easier to slot in to existing builds or have some available already.

While they're still tied to cool-downs, places an obvious tell on the ground that a thief can try to avoid (counter-play), and should make for a bit more of a "back and forth" play style where you try to line up your reveals or stealth burst against each others.

----

I could also see adding Reveal to all traps in addition to the above. For one thing it feels thematic/intuitive, the other is that again watching a player setting a trap in combat gives a tell, and creates options for counter play/area denial.

If they did add Reveal to the combo system in one of these ways, I'd also assume they removed Reveal from most/all of the existing skills that currently has it.

Would also feel great to see people appreciate the combo system more, it's still one of my favourite mechanics in GW2.

Edited August 3, 2023 by joneirikb.7506

[senftube.6081]

2 hours ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

So, since the topic is about having ways to make "reveal" into a more accessible option spread out among more classes. And preferably in a way that isn't completely on/off regarding shutting down stealth completely with no counter-play back from the thief's side.

* One thing to consider is to add the PVP change that Reveal lasts 4 seconds instead of 3

From a quick look over at the wiki, current skills that adds Reveal:
* Warrior - "On My Mark!" (shout)
* Spellbreaker - Sight Beyond Sight (medi)
* Spellbreaker - Magebane Tether (trait)
* Dragonhunter - Lights Judgement (trap)
* Dragonhunter - Spear of Justice (virtue)
* Herald - Gaze of Darkness
* Deadeye - Malicious Death's Judgement
* Deadeye - Binding Shadow (cantrip)
* Ranger - "Sic Em!" (shout)
* Engineer - Detection Pulse (toolbelt)
* Engineer - Controlled Analysis
* Engineer - Invisible Analysis
* Necromancer/Shroud - Tainted Shackles

Misc:
* Arrow Cart - Toxic Unveilling Volley (Mastery5)
* Target Painter Trap
* Target Painter

Now, most classes have some access too reveal, though a lot of them would have to go into specific elite's to get access to them, or change their builds around to fit them in to various degrees.

Personally I don't think locking reveal to specific skills are ideal, as it feels more like a band-aid system tacked onto the combat system, instead of having a system that would allow you to play and counter-play more naturally with your existing build, but that you could build heavier or weaker towards. We have the same issue with conditions to some extent, that you need some condi removal in a build, you can build heavy toward condi removal but usually at the cost of the build as a whole.

----

So I'd like to re-mention the idea I suggested earlier, to tie Reveal to the combo system. The combo system is available to all classes, but not always every combo field.

Here's two different takes on how to use the combo system to apply Reveal:
* If you walk into certain Combo Fields you automatically gain revealed.
* If anyone makes a combo of any type in certain Combo Fields, you automatically apply reveal in X range.

I'd suggest using Fire + Light combo fields as they're both thematic/intuitive, as well as available to the majority of classes (the only one that doesn't have access to one of the two is Thief. This could be remedied by also adding Ethereal). That said, I can't say how much access each class has to each of those, a brief glance through the wiki and there are a lot of access to Fire+Light, but I didn't sit down and double check how even that distribution was.

The majority of builds should likely have access to one of these, through either weapons, utils, profession mechanics or traits etc, so it should be easier to slot in to existing builds or have some available already.

While they're still tied to cool-downs, places an obvious tell on the ground that a thief can try to avoid (counter-play), and should make for a bit more of a "back and forth" play style where you try to line up your reveals or stealth burst against each others.

----

I could also see adding Reveal to all traps in addition to the above. For one thing it feels thematic/intuitive, the other is that again watching a player setting a trap in combat gives a tell, and creates options for counter play/area denial.

If they did add Reveal to the combo system in one of these ways, I'd also assume they removed Reveal from most/all of the existing skills that currently has it.

Would also feel great to see people appreciate the combo system more, it's still one of my favourite mechanics in GW2.

Sentries and Watchtowers are also there which give perm reveal. 

The problem here is that nothing is given as compensation.
The thief on D/P is already not great to play in Zerg, if all traps etc. would give Reveal this build would be completely unplayable.

Again WvW is not balanced for 1 vs 1 it is a mass PvPvE mode.

Your suggestion would result in the thief having to be buffed in other places or dmg. In the end, people would still cry again.

And honestly traps are already very often PePe skills and for me almost more annoying than stealth spammers. Worst of all are these stealth DH trappers or Condi Ranger Trappers. Uh no. Would be pretty stupid if they would get a Reveal after that. A DH Trapper is already a counter against thieves.

 

Overall for the Topic:

And still i also say, thief has a high skill cap. When you face a good thief it is also because the player behind IS GOOD.  The Confirmation Bias is sadly very strong in many peoples when it comes to Thief or Stealth. They are often players which never played the class at all and because of that have now experience and knowledge how hard it can be as thief.  They think they can go gank a thief with the zerg build because they don't understand the roles of each classes. Same happens alot in Spvp below Plat. Where noob DrD thiefs think they are duellers and that is the average skill of the base players. Burials Video did show insane fails like the two at the sentry but trolling demigod only see Thief OP! Regardless that the two players did play bad -> it is always the thiefs fault.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by senftube.6081

[joneirikb.7506]

42 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Sentries and Watchtowers are also there which give perm reveal. 

The problem here is that nothing is given as compensation.
The thief on D/P is already not great to play in Zerg, if all traps etc. would give Reveal this build would be completely unplayable.

Again WvW is not balanced for 1 vs 1 it is a mass PvPvE mode.

Your suggestion would result in the thief having to be buffed in other places or dmg. In the end, people would still cry again.

And honestly traps are already very often PePe skills and for me almost more annoying than stealth spammers. Worst of all are these stealth DH trappers. Uh no. Would be pretty stupid if they would get a Reveal after that. A DH Trapper is already a counter against thieves.

Right forgot about Sentry/Watchtower since they apply Marked and not Reveal. I wouldn't have minded removing those as well, as there should be enough ways (hopefully) for players to more directly interact with stealth with the above suggestion.

The traps part was an optional part, was just mentioning it since it made thematic sense, and a way to expand upon it or not, depending on how well it worked or not.

And I absolutely agree that the game shouldn't be balanced for 1vs1, and generally think 5vs5 is the point they should balance around. 

And since this would be a systematic change, then yes other things would need to be balanced around it, including Thief. Though it shouldn't drastically affect the balance, but more the timing of things.

The idea was more to tie reveal into the core gameplay mechanics, as something most builds would have access to in some manner, but most shouldn't be able to spam endlessly (Fire field elementalist probably being a big exception...). But something you could also build more or less toward, without too much weird compromises to builds. While still giving stealth users ways to see/react/counter-play to it. 

And if some classes would be better at detecting stealth than others, that would also be good reason to want to bring one along in your havoc squad.

(Makes a note to play some Dragonhunter again...)

[ilMasa.2546]

3 hours ago, senftube.6081 said:

Sentries and Watchtowers are also there which give perm reveal. 

The problem here is that nothing is given as compensation.
The thief on D/P is already not great to play in Zerg, if all traps etc. would give Reveal this build would be completely unplayable.

Again WvW is not balanced for 1 vs 1 it is a mass PvPvE mode.

Your suggestion would result in the thief having to be buffed in other places or dmg. In the end, people would still cry again.

And honestly traps are already very often PePe skills and for me almost more annoying than stealth spammers. Worst of all are these stealth DH trappers or Condi Ranger Trappers. Uh no. Would be pretty stupid if they would get a Reveal after that. A DH Trapper is already a counter against thieves.

 

I dont get your point of view. Reveal on combo field/finisher and traps is actually a very nice idea. So why do you need a compenastion for that? If the thief stays untouched and the changes are only on specific combofields, then the class retains exactly the same functionality and playability it had before the changes.

And since u claim that the thief has a high skill cap, good thieves should not have problems picking fights at a safe distance from towers and/or sentries and they should not have problems resetting fights when they get revealed,by stepping on a trap/combo field,for istance.

Following your logic,why the other classes gets zero compensation and instead they have to pick specific traits and utility skills totally unrelated to the build they are using just to reveal stealth targets?!

 

Also I'm very much in favor of the revail removal from sentries and towers/keeps but i would like to see an increase in the uptime pulse for the warclaw sniff.I think this change could promote the come back of "scout" units that can work directly with a tag via shared participation.

Edited August 3, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

11 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Why you're misleading so much with information? Teef have abundant amount of teleports and evades and blinds and interrupts on top of stealth, why you don't mention it in the slightest? You're blatantly lying to defend busted mechanic at this point, that's ridiculous.  

Thieves always have to make concessions on which of these mechanics they will take. They can't cram them all into one build. The ones they DO take are often expensive or extremely situational (or both), and don't lead to overperformance in most situations. 

Im not ignoring these, I just don't consider them important enough to mention. 

If you disagree and feel they are busted, prove it. Theres only a handful of thieves running around and most of them have resigned themselves to punishing stragglers because constant nerf whine obliterated their ability to skirmish. 

That offer to play a thief or lab how to fight them is still open, btw. That will be available anytime. I will not judge you in any capacity regarding this, either. 

Quote

I gave you the most balanced idea for stealth (which should just get deleted, because game engine can't keep up with it) to make it only last 3s followed by 3s revealed and you go "yadayada", what is wrong with you?

Something about seeing constant arguments to nerf thief in ways that don't take into account combat flow and handwave the need for mitigation jades a person. I'm not here to argue with you, I'm here to offer you a lab partner.

Quote

They are busted, just because people don't abuse it, doesn't mean it's not busted.

Nah. Cap. They don't abuse it because its not busted. You're not seeing infrequent thieves out of the collective goodness of the player's hearts. It requires skill that is beyond what many are willing to express.

This is an mmo. The population is addicted to playing overpowered specs, it draws people with power fantasies at its core. You're not seeing a lot of thieves because the spec is hard, and the thieves you DO see mix you because they learned the hard spec, which probably also included learning how yours works. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[MedievalThings.5417]

The problem with thief isn't stealth, it's Anet.  The biggest outlier to thief is daredevil, and it is a balance outlier because it has 3 dodges.  Anet isn't capable of balancing the class because they don't understand what balance is, and they haven't figured out that 3 dodges on a hyper-mobile class is broken.  Three dodges on any class is broken, more so with mobility.  So, you get nerfs to things that are core, like shortbow, because 3 dodge daredevil with shortbow was broken x10.  To compensate for nerfs to things like stealth, you get perma-superspeed on the hyper-mobile class (that the thief dev managed to get a portal on too).  They are going to continue to break things until they figure that out.  Wait  until the 22nd, when rifle (3 dodge + portal) daredevil is completely unhinged.  The forums will be fun at least.

Edited August 3, 2023 by MedievalThings.5417

[senftube.6081]

37 minutes ago, MedievalThings.5417 said:

The problem with thief isn't stealth, it's Anet.  The biggest outlier to thief is daredevil, and it is a balance outlier because it has 3 dodges.  Anet isn't capable of balancing the class because they don't understand what balance is, and they haven't figured out that 3 dodges on a hyper-mobile class is broken.  Three dodges on any class is broken, more so with mobility.  So, you get nerfs to things that are core, like shortbow, because 3 dodge daredevil with shortbow was broken x10.  To compensate for nerfs to things like stealth, you get perma-superspeed on the hyper-mobile class (that the thief dev managed to get a portal on too).  They are going to continue to break things until they figure that out.  Wait  until the 22nd, when rifle (3 dodge + portal) daredevil is completely unhinged.  The forums will be fun at least.

Okei now we had Stealth, Initivative and mobility, on demand boon spam (?) and now is also 3 dodges broken. Sure thief  has perma superspeed too.......everything is perma it seems. Oh man guys really GO READ the wiki or play the class for kittens sake.

[senftube.6081]

3 hours ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

I dont get your point of view. Reveal on combo field/finisher and traps is actually a very nice idea. So why do you need a compenastion for that? If the thief stays untouched and the changes are only on specific combofields, then the class retains exactly the same functionality and playability it had before the changes.

And since u claim that the thief has a high skill cap, good thieves should not have problems picking fights at a safe distance from towers and/or sentries and they should not have problems resetting fights when they get revealed,by stepping on a trap/combo field,for istance.

Following your logic,why the other classes gets zero compensation and instead they have to pick specific traits and utility skills totally unrelated to the build they are using just to reveal stealth targets?!

 

Also I'm very much in favor of the revail removal from sentries and towers/keeps but i would like to see an increase in the uptime pulse for the warclaw sniff.I think this change could promote the come back of "scout" units that can work directly with a tag via shared participation.

Okey when u don't see that i can't help you. Question i still don't get what you mean with "boons on demand". Can u pls enlight me once what was meant with it? Do you say Thief is a boon spam class?

Edited August 3, 2023 by senftube.6081

[RazieL.5684]

6 hours ago, senftube.6081 said:

The problem here is that nothing is given as compensation.

I kinda gave up on this topic because people like... well, you... comment on it with stuff like... well, this...

The stealth mechanic needs to be reworked (read as "removed") because it's busted beyond all hell... what "compensation" are you even talking about? did they compensate ele when they nerfed it 5 patches in a row? i'm sorry, i meant "bug fixed"... what was the compensation when they nerfed mech to F tier? what was the compensation for shoutsworn when it got literally murdered?

There is no compensation! And great thieves have proved it time and time again with sword/dagger that you don't need perma stealth and shadow arts to kill people...

p.s don't reply to me i'm not reading it...

[ilMasa.2546]

18 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Okey when u don't see that i can't help you. Question i still don't get what you mean with "boons on demand". Can u pls enlight me once what was meant with it? Do you say Thief is a boon spam class?

Mercifull ambush
Shadow's Embrace
Meld with Shadows
Shielding restoration

Just read thief traits...

Quote

Okey when u don't see that i can't help you

how convenient 🙂 uh !?
 

Edited August 3, 2023 by ilMasa.2546

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, senftube.6081 said:

Okei now we had Stealth, Initivative and mobility, on demand boon spam (?) and now is also 3 dodges broken. Sure thief  has perma superspeed too.......everything is perma it seems. Oh man guys really GO READ the wiki or play the class for kittens sake.

This person is correct. Every aspect of thief has been claimed to be broken and yet there's only a handful of thieves in the competitive game modes. 

I'm inclined to believe it's just resentment. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

14 minutes ago, ilMasa.2546 said:

Mercifull ambush
Shadow's Embrace
Meld with Shadows
Shielding restoration

Just read most of thief traits...i dont understand the quote but ok

Literally none of those are boons. 

Quote

There is no compensation! And great thieves have proved it time and time again with sword/dagger that you don't need perma stealth and shadow arts to kill people...

Thieves dont have permastealth, and shadow arts no longer increases stealth duration.

 

Yeah, it's just resentment. Resentment and incomprehension but mostly resentment. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[ilMasa.2546]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Literally none of those are boons. 

A boon is a type of effect that provides a positive buff to the recipient. Each boon provides a different positive effect, from increasing the character's movement speed and damage to reducing the recharge time of their skills. Boons are applied by many skills and traits, as well as some upgrade components. Conditions are the primary negative counterpart to boons' positive effects.

Ohh ok so getting protection when entering and exitin stealth is not a positive buff with a positive effect?
Removing a condition is not a positive effect?
Superspeed is not a potive effect?

Ok.