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A possible solution to the Deadeye conundrum: Quickness Daredevil


JaxLeo.7912

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The issue currently with Deadeye is that the balance team placed the quickness generation on a skill that, thanks to how thief is designed, can be used very often; to fix this issue would require going back to the drawingboard and re-locate the quickness source to a much healthier alternative that also offers a damage trade-off, instead of this the balance team decided to hit the entire damage kit on deadeye to try to balance the build because it is unrealistic to solve with just reductions to the quickness output: too little of a reduction won't solve the issue, too harsh of a reduction will make it unviable.

Deadeye as an elite spec is interesting because it sacrifices way to much to be able to do massive damage: it has very little options to cleave enemies, it has very little utility to help your allies, it takes a hit to it's own mobility, so reducing the damage so wildly is not an adequate solution.

Instead, what i propose is returning deadeye to it's previous state and giving the Quickness role to a different elite spec of thief: Daredevil, where it would be easier to balance and it would make more sense thematically

my proposal would be simple: reworking the Pulmonary Impact trait into somethig entirely different, to explore this idea i will re-name the trait "encouraging initiative" this new trait would make use of thief's mechanics to generate Quickness, and the tradeoff would be Havock specialist, which means thief no longer has access to that 15% extra  damage you get from consuming all your endurance.

Personally, in order to tie it to one of thief's mechanics, i would tie it to initiative consumption, since it is part of thief's core mechanics and it is directly related to time, which means it is easy to correlate the quickness output with how much initiative the thief has, and since initiative is not closely affected by alacrity it is simple to balance because reduced skill reload becomes a minor concern; so, as an example, i would make it so every 5 iniciative consumed gives you 3.3 seconds of quickness on a radius around the thief, since iniciative is generated with time this makes it so that daredevil also has to take some boon duration to make quickness last enough to be able to make use of this trait effectively, with my example of 3.3 seconds of quickness it would be necesary to have around 50 ~ 60% boon duration to provide quickness effectively, with most of the gear requiring diviner or ritualist stats, reducing some of the damage the thief can offer, also further reducing the damage potential of the build bit still allowing it to remain on an effective and competent level.

having the trait in this way also allows for more options for thief, since you have access to both Bounding dodger and impaling lotus, meaning a quickness daredevil can be built in both power and condition damage variants, allowing for more freedom of choice, and since initiative is in one of thief's integral mechanics it also allows for freedom of choice in the utility skills as well as the ability to provide quickness both in combat and out of combat scenarios.

Of course, this is simply an exploration of the idea, coming from someone who likes to play thief mostly in instanced content, different scenarios of the game have different requirements, so i assume for WvW and PvP this idea might have different repercussions i didn't consider out of my lack of experience in those modes, regardless of this, with this option it would be easier to balance with tweaks to the values, and it would allow for deadeye to have it's specialty in doing damage, and covering that niche effectively without having to worry about a very strong elite specialization having access to a very strong boon.

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while havoc specialist is a decent tradeoff on power builds, is that enough for condi builds? as it is a 15% strike dmg bonus

6 hours ago, Jormin.2761 said:

As probably the only DaggerDagger DD, I approve this message, especially for WvW.  But srsly that would make Cloak and Dagger absolutely bonkers.

quickness/alacrity traits don't always give those boons in WvW
 

Edited by bq pd.2148
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20 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

while havoc specialist is a decent tradeoff on power builds, is that enough for condi builds? as it is a 15% strike dmg bonus

i think it is still a decent tradeoff for condi Quickness builds but not for the reason you think, ritualist stats entirely lack the power component, which is present in the DPS variant of condi Daredevil via viper stats, so by that alone you are sacrificing a decent percentage of your damage

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Nah, then they will fire a nuke missile at Daredevil too and make every one of their builds weaker than they were prior, whether it uses the Quickness or not. The best solution would be deleting Quickness/Alacrity from all classes so no need to compete with others for those builds anymore and no need to balance around them anymore 😛

 Pulmonary Impact was pseudo-deleted or 'temporarily/permanently disabled' though since it was nerfed into unuseability a long time ago so something needs done with it.

Edited by Doggie.3184
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31 minutes ago, JaxLeo.7912 said:

i think it is still a decent tradeoff for condi Quickness builds but not for the reason you think, ritualist stats entirely lack the power component, which is present in the DPS variant of condi Daredevil via viper stats, so by that alone you are sacrificing a decent percentage of your damage

if there is no trade off in trait but only equipment could you not run 2 condi dps and get the quickness for free?

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26 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

if there is no trade off in trait but only equipment could you not run 2 condi dps and get the quickness for free?

that can also be true for every single other boon build in the game, nothing stops you from running 2 DPS firebrands using mantra of potence, nothing stops you from running 2 DPS renegades both running Righteous Rebel, and so on

nobody does that because it cannibalizes itself, having 2 people providing the same boon will make it so that at moments you will overcap the boon and the cooldowns won't line up to maintain it, and so would be true for this idea, because it is dependant on iniciative, so you would need to wait for your iniciative to build back up

it is way harder to ensure the boon uptime when 2 people have to synchronize their skills to keep it up, so for convenience and reliability you just maximize the uptime of a single person

Edited by JaxLeo.7912
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12 minutes ago, JaxLeo.7912 said:

that can also be true for every single other boon build in the game, nothing stops you from running 2 DPS firebrands using mantra of potence, nothing stops you from running 2 DPS renegades both running Righteous Rebel, and so on

nobody does that because it cannibalizes itself, having 2 people providing the same boon will make it so that at moments you will overcap the boon and the cooldowns won't line up to maintain it, and so would be true for this idea, because it is dependant on iniciative, so you would need to wait for your iniciative to build back up

i dont know enough about firebrand and renegade builds, how much dps the use of the mantra or that trait is, but indeed if your boon is provided by multiple skills that you spamm on cooldown it would require more coordination that is probably less efficient than one person doing it, if it would even be more dps.

however in your proposal you dont give 30 seconds of quickness and then wait a long time for a cooldown until you provide it again. when it is linked to initative spent it will give the quickness much more consistently and not in spikes, thus i  think it unlikely that 2 players would overcap the duration. 

overall i like the idea, i am just not sure that condi daredevil has enough tradeoff within the trait choice

Edited by bq pd.2148
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17 hours ago, JaxLeo.7912 said:

that can also be true for every single other boon build in the game, nothing stops you from running 2 DPS firebrands using mantra of potence, nothing stops you from running 2 DPS renegades both running Righteous Rebel, and so on

nobody does that because it cannibalizes itself, having 2 people providing the same boon will make it so that at moments you will overcap the boon and the cooldowns won't line up to maintain it, and so would be true for this idea, because it is dependant on iniciative, so you would need to wait for your iniciative to build back up

it is way harder to ensure the boon uptime when 2 people have to synchronize their skills to keep it up, so for convenience and reliability you just maximize the uptime of a single person

Two people that each have more than 50% uptime should be able to maintain the boon as easily as one person with double the uptime. The duration stacks to 100% and a bit of overcap (which isn't bad, overcap is leeway for error, mechanics, etc) regardless of whether it's coming from one source or two.

The real reason you don't see double-ups is that it's generally easier for a group to get quick, alac, and 3dps (or double that for a 10-man) then to mess about with partial roles, and because things like the renegade with Righteous Rebel, cdps firebrand with MoP, and so on are still giving up some damage to get to 50% (or three with 33% each, or four with 25%). The speedrunners, however, are quite happy to divide a key boon among multiple players per subsquad if the maths work out, though. ArenaNet has a tendency to smack it down when it does, though (most recently seen with Catalyst about a year ago).

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