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Boons should have more hard-counters.


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In the past, boons weren't as easy to apply. Now we've got some really powerful boons being applied constantly within 10 seconds or so of each other. Boons are applied so frequently that the boons basically jump in front of other boons, preventing boon hate from reaching boons that need to be removed at a given moment. Unlike conditions, such as Immobilize, boons don't have that many things that directly target them for removal. Instead we see broad-scale boon hate, which is a bit hard to balance when too many spells have it.

Skills removing specific boons would more strategic and less likely to be as overpowering as a barrage of generalized boon hate. Please consider giving this form of boon removal to underutilized abilities and traits.

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Boons are applied so frequently that the boons basically jump in front of other boons, preventing boon hate from reaching boons that need to be removed at a given moment.

most skills that remove boons  will remove them in a specific order if they are applied to the target;
for example the thief skill LArcenous strike will remove boon in the following order:

this happens regardless of when a boon in appled, certain boons will be removed first

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Wait, are you saying that there are condition cleanses that just remove debuffs? (Cripple, blind) or that there are cleanses which just remove damage over time? (Bleeding, torment)

The only thing that even comes close to a specific cleanse are stun breaks.  The only conditions affected by stunbreaks are conditions that lock a player out of the ability to use combat skills. (Except their skills that are classified as stun breaks)  Fear, taunt, daze, are the only debuffs in this category with a substantial duration.

Which type of boons did you want to counter?  Protection? Stability? Alacrity? 

Edited by Zebulous.2934
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3 minutes ago, Parasite.5389 said:

most skills that remove boons  will remove them in a specific order if they are applied to the target;
for example the thief skill LArcenous strike will remove boon in the following order:

this happens regardless of when a boon in appled, certain boons will be removed first

There are moments where you really got to dig deep with those boon removals for a specific boon within that priority, yet professions are usually only granted a handful of methods for boon stripping. It's great to limit such a broad ability such as stripping any boon. If it's too common, then what is the point of having a boon? However, it's bad that there isn't a moderate alternative that isn't as versatile.

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28 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Wait, are you saying that there are condition cleanses that just remove debuffs? (Cripple, blind) or that there are cleanses which just remove damage over time? (Bleeding, torment)

The only thing that even comes close to a specific cleanse are stun breaks.

There are condition cleanses that specifically target only certain conditions.

  • Utility Goggles removing Blind.
  • Rocket Boots removing Chill, Immobilize, Cripple.
  • Elixir R removing Immobilize.
  • A.E.D. removing all damaging conditions.

Those are some Engineer examples. Some professions are probably lacking in these areas, but they're out there. They tend to get added within balance patches over time.

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43 minutes ago, Zebulous.2934 said:

Which type of boons did you want to counter?  Protection? Stability? Alacrity? 

Admittedly, I have my biases. Stability is something that is often automatically applied on through traits and is given layers of it with active abilities. Might reaches 25 stacks on some specialized Might builds, which requires somebody to counter. Protection gets applied frequently and automatically at times. Those are what often cross my mind. As an Engineer main, I've been on both ends of fighting with and fighting against those boons. They're really great.

However, ArenaNet should just go with whatever seems balanced. If a boon is conquering the meta, introduce a counter play. It feels like they make heads roll instead of doing that. They had an axe to grind against WvW Quickness Scrappers.

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Even with specific boon strip/corrupt skills there pretty much won't be a difference, you'll run into the problem where as with specific condition removals, there won't be many of them.

And even then as you said yourself, we can reapply them in seconds, so it will just create a small window where you can hit through them. 

And if you want that for WvW blobs, forget it, a mere targeted boon strip won't affect a boon ball at all. 

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13 hours ago, cyberzombie.7348 said:

They won't do any of that, trust me. People in the WvW forum has been asking for more counters for at least a year now. Only for them to nerf removal skills while doubling down on the applications.

Is because ppl get what they want, them complain later.

They nerfed boon corruption because wvw forum asked for it "too many condi spam".

If they nerf boon balls, ppl will complain about return of pirate-ship meta: " too many damage".

If they nerf pirate ship meta, reducing damage from ranged nukes like revenant, then the hammer train(i think the first zerga meta of wvw) will be back, people will complain: "too many heavy melee class", or "too many CC reduce CC".

So i think Anet is right direction when not heard "wvw forum" for balance.

Edited by ugrakarma.9416
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5 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

They nerfed boon corruption because wvw forum asked for it "too many condi spam".

Wait you think they read the forums?!

Jokes aside, that's not why boon corruption was nerfed. One or more of the devs are in boonball guilds, every patch seems to favour that style of play in terms of nerfing what can hurt them.

The issue isn't the forums (for once), it's that the devs are hearing feedback from a very specific type of player whilst in game.

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The boon counter was the Spellbreaker but it's nerfed to the ground.Warrior is a constant loop of sacrificing something in order to get another thing while other professions are not that hard leashed.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Winds_of_Disenchantment

In WvW only  on 5 players? Where around 100/server is cap...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Break_Enchantments

Boons removed 1 in WvW xDD normal pvp 4 from 5 targets which is restacked in seconds anyway

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Natural_Healing

Hurts more me than help in most cases...

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enchantment_Collapse

This is somewhat well but -1 boon with a 240 radius to affect others where only 2 buffers outperforms your stripping xD

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dispelling_Force

Well this is good and probably the only 1 good thing spellbreaker brings in boon stripping

So the Anti-Boon hero is good in PvE and let's say PvP but WvW not much.

Maybe there are more boon stripper professions I mostly play with warrior and I cannot bring information on how they work,maybe someone else can bring some light but I am also on that opinion that need more ways to remove boons and remove it properly not for seconds only.

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11 hours ago, psizone.8437 said:

Wait you think they read the forums?!

Jokes aside, that's not why boon corruption was nerfed. One or more of the devs are in boonball guilds, every patch seems to favour that style of play in terms of nerfing what can hurt them.

The issue isn't the forums (for once), it's that the devs are hearing feedback from a very specific type of player whilst in game.

Who can't guarantee same crew don't post on forums?

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Boons could have been momentary special positives for a player or group.  There is a lot of skill and coordination involved in applying buffs at just the right time.  One example would be using a damage intensifier with a long cooldown at the optimal moment (e.g., a burst phase in a boss fight).

Boons in GW2 were more like that at launch.  They never had a huge impact individually, probably because there were a lot of them on shorter cooldowns.  Now, there are so many and the uptime on them is lengthy.

Cumulatively, boons have a huge impact in a fight.  Now, they are the most significant factor in success in competitive modes and in harder instanced content.  Boons are the biggest factor in the power creep GW2 has "enjoyed."  The proliferation of ways to apply boons and the ability to spec for near total boon up-time account for that.

For me, boon balls in WvW are a kitten.  This has been made much worse by the progressive nerfing of boon stripping/corruption.  It's hard to fathom why the devs have based individual and team comp builds around boons, yet have such antipathy to counters for boons.  After all, counter-play is an essential part of game design, and the relative lack of counters for boons makes GW2 a worse game than it could be.

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