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Can someone please explain death's judgement?


RazieL.5684

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First of all i'm writing this in wvw since the people in the thief section actually want to buff thief O.o

Anyway can someone please explain to me how come when I get hit by death's judgement i get crit for absurd numbers but when i reflect it at a thief it hits for 100???? how does that make sense? It doesn't say anything on the wiki that it can't be reflected or blocked?

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First of all, 2 things to have in mind:

  • Reflected projectiles use the crit chance from the player that reflected it, not from the original caster.
  • Reflected projectiles do not trigger sigil hit based effects from the original caster.

So if you only have base crit chance (because you are full condi or minstrel) then the overall damage is likely to be lower than the original Death Judgment.

Then, the reflect target can have dmg reduction boons or skills active, so the damage would be further reduced.

Also, if you look at Death's judgment, there is "dmg to targeted foe" and "dmg to untargeted foe". The later one is not splash dmg, and i interpret it the former being dmg to the initial thief's target and the later being dmg done to a reflected target (ie, untargeted meaning someone not target by the original caster).
Dunno if it's what happened but it sure looks like it.

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Interesting, I did not know that the reflect uses your stats instead of the caster, that's horrible yet anet thus understandable...

The thing is that the caster uses obviously power gear, crits me for ~10k but if i reflect it (it did crit in this case) crit them for 178... we were the only 2 targets, we were targeting each other, the projectile did not pass through other non-targets, i was running cele gear which does have more power and crit damage than minstrel...

how much scaling, damage reduction and other magic has to apply to get from 178 to 10k ? keep in mind the deadeye has glass cannon gear so it doesn't get another set of reduction from toughness or whatever... something is missing this is not right...

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wanting buffs for the thief doesn't mean that thief players cannot explain to you how their skills work.

if you only look for death's judgement in wiki you will get a very lacking entry. the correct one is:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Death's_Judgment

a reflected projectile takes the original targets power, your crit chance and crit damage along with your damage modifiers.

as you usually don't have the deadeye marked yourself, you will get the unmarked damage number. 
further you also do not have 1-7 malice the deadeye would have when shooting (which is usually 7) so you also dont get the massive damage modifier from there.
usually the deadeye will use the hit shortly after an m7 proc to utilize the might from it, but it also comes with protection and from marking you they do gain additionally iron sight

as you can see the power coefficient for marked vs unmarked is already only ~15% of the damage and then missing a 105% damage modifier on top from lacking the malice and then shooting it into a rather protected target at that moment wont do much damage.

 

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I did look at that page and it says nothing about reflecting it or any kind of bugs related to it. Putting aside how weird (read that as "wrong") the reflect calculation works I still don't see how it only reflects 178 damage considering I am not lacking on power.

P.S I made a test just to see how things are in pve and my NAKED deadeye can crit upwards of 8k death's judgement if you remove the malice scaling which you said is 105% ? that should be at least a 4k crit... how is my reflect with full gear only 178? there is clearly something wrong here!

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seems the first post was too much at once so the TLDR:
you are shooting a projectile with 0.165 power scaling into a target with protection + additonal 10% dmg reduction from mark. that base damage is lower than AA hits.

 


death's judgement used to be a single target hit, but because actually hitting your marked target with it is quite important yet a true piercing effect would be too strong, deadeye got half of it:

  • death's judgement can hit up to 5 targets in a line but the bullet stops if it hits your marked target.
  • targets on the way that are not marked take minimal damage only.
    ^ this minimal damage is what you apply with your reflect as you didn't mark the deadeye.

 

 

Edited by bq pd.2148
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51 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

seems the first post was too much at once so the TLDR:
you are shooting a projectile with 0.165 power scaling into a target with protection + additonal 10% dmg reduction from mark. that base damage is lower than AA hits.

 


death's judgement used to be a single target hit, but because actually hitting your marked target with it is quite important yet a true piercing effect would be too strong, deadeye got half of it:

  • death's judgement can hit up to 5 targets in a line but the bullet stops if it hits your marked target.
  • targets on the way that are not marked take minimal damage only.
    ^ this minimal damage is what you apply with your reflect as you didn't mark the deadeye.

 

 

ah now i got it, thanks for the clarification! so this is an oversight that needs immediate attention

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7 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

ah now i got it, thanks for the clarification! so this is an oversight that needs immediate attention

i don't think anet can easily make an exception how reflect is handled for a single skill.
however one could apply normal damage on the 'unmarked' targets without the malice modifier, i would welcome that buff to deadeye, even if reflects hit harder then. for targets with ridiculous reflect uptime like decent eles one should swap to a melee set anyway.

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24 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i don't think anet can easily make an exception how reflect is handled for a single skill.
however one could apply normal damage on the 'unmarked' targets without the malice modifier, i would welcome that buff to deadeye, even if reflects hit harder then. for targets with ridiculous reflect uptime like decent eles one should swap to a melee set anyway.

considering there are things like gunflame with the weird bug that the reflected ability doesn't calculate the range properly, afaik this is the only such ability, they can clearly easily make adjustments to a single ability if the ability is reflected to treat the new target (IE the caster) with the same buffs/debuffs that would apply to the first target including might/prot/malice... that's how good games have been doing it forever...

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46 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

considering there are things like gunflame with the weird bug that the reflected ability doesn't calculate the range properly, afaik this is the only such ability, they can clearly easily make adjustments to a single ability if the ability is reflected to treat the new target (IE the caster) with the same buffs/debuffs that would apply to the first target including might/prot/malice... that's how good games have been doing it forever...

i am not convinced that it is done easily.

pretty sure projectiles usually do not carry all the information with them. the moment you reflect it, you are shooting the projectile and so your stats will go into the damage calculation if it hits.
(the exception about power might even be old news, i just remember way before HoT in experiments to instant kill Lupicus with reflects one would prioritize ferocity over power because it was supposedly like that)

yet even if you are right and it can be done with ease, there would still need to be a good reason to break the behaviour of reflects for only a single skill.  after all why should some minstrel build that doesn't risk going down be able to deal significant damage to a target with a mere reflect?

edit: nvm the amount of fun that would be in some PvE metas and the drama from it would be worth it.

Edited by bq pd.2148
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5 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i am not convinced that it is done easily.

pretty sure projectiles usually do not carry all the information with them. the moment you reflect it, you are shooting the projectile and so your stats will go into the damage calculation if it hits.
(the exception about power might even be old news, i just remember way before HoT in experiments to instant kill Lupicus with reflects one would prioritize ferocity over power because it was supposedly like that)

yet even if you are right and it can be done with ease, there would still need to be a good reason to break the behaviour of reflects for only a single skill.  after all why should some minstrel build that doesn't risk going down be able to deal significant damage to a target with a mere reflect?

edit: nvm the amount of fun that would be in some PvE metas and the drama from it would be worth it.

first of all thank you for entertaining this discussion...

one of the reasons i believe (and also afaik most other games) that the reflect should keep the caster stats and not the reflector is because it actually forces the caster to not completely ignore the mechanic... otherwise there is no reason for reflect to exist just make it block and save your devs some work... usually people that throw reflect fields are the supports, no? so they are bound to do 100 damage if someone doesn't care to look and just free shoots into the reflect and i do not condone the use of less brain power...

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49 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

first of all thank you for entertaining this discussion...

one of the reasons i believe (and also afaik most other games) that the reflect should keep the caster stats and not the reflector is because it actually forces the caster to not completely ignore the mechanic... otherwise there is no reason for reflect to exist just make it block and save your devs some work... usually people that throw reflect fields are the supports, no? so they are bound to do 100 damage if someone doesn't care to look and just free shoots into the reflect and i do not condone the use of less brain power...

while i agree that one should not blindly shoot into reflects, deadeye unlike say a ranger or your above mentioned gunflame user does not have access to an unblockable buff so they do not have any counter play to projectile denial (aside from switching off ranged weapons) , thus they are already easily shut down with the over abundance of projectile hate in the game.
in the case of for example an ele with way too high uptime on reflect, the fact that they can ignore projectiles is already really strong, the bit of extra damage is just bonus.

above i suggested that applying the regular modifier on the passthrough hits 1.11 instead of 0.165 , which would buff the reflects on the skill would be an alright compromise by also giving the deadeye better 'cleave' and it would not be an exception on how the game handles reflects, yet you demand an exception for only death's judgement, i hope you see how that makes you look when you are running a cele ele.

edit:
maybe a compromise can be found elsewhere, lets  see..
from the perspective of the deadeye especially running m7 it is very important to land the sneak attack, much more than how much damage it does. the fact that death's judgement is rifle sneak attack is not that good in competitive modes as it is way too easily avoided and has to be avoided for the damage it does.
because of this i personally would happily trade death's judgement for something more based on the old rifle sneak attack, with higher projectile velocity so it cannot be sidestepped:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cursed_Bullet
 i'd take a lower damage version and as malice scaling the number of boons  corrupted.
and even better if that would be the standing sneak attack while the kneeling one remains death's judgement for PvE purposes.
 

Edited by bq pd.2148
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26 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

while i agree that one should not blindly shoot into reflects, deadeye unlike say a ranger or your above mentioned gunflame user does not have access to an unblockable buff so they do not have any counter play to projectile denial (aside from switching off ranged weapons) , thus they are already easily shut down with the over abundance of projectile hate in the game.
in the case of for example an ele with way too high uptime on reflect, the fact that they can ignore projectiles is already really strong, the bit of extra damage is just bonus.

above i suggested that applying the regular modifier on the passthrough hits 1.11 instead of 0.165 , which would buff the reflects on the skill would be an alright compromise by also giving the deadeye better 'cleave' and it would not be an exception on how the game handles reflects, yet you demand an exception for only death's judgement, i hope you see how that makes you look when you are running a cele ele.

ranger and warrior having unblockable and thief not is not an argument... my FA weaver and scrapper also don't have unblockable...

you are suggesting an insane buff to a class that only needs to be nerfed

9 minutes ago, Androx.8572 said:

Stop depending on your "Reflects" and get good Karen
😂

just like this idiot here...

@Androx.8572 wanna get out of stealth and get good? no? thought so...

this is why I said I don't want to post this in the thief section...

also I did not demand an exception for only death's judgement no idea where you got that from...  what i'm saying is that the reflect mechanic altogether needs to be fixed, not just this ability...

and finally idk what me being in cele in that occasion has to do with anything... I find that fa has better chances to deal with this broken braindead class but in this case I was in cele... so? would me being in zerker change the reflect mechanic? no? then why mention it? trying to take a jab at me right after I was trying to be nice to you? amazing community... of degens...

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1 minute ago, RazieL.5684 said:

ranger and warrior having unblockable and thief not is not an argument... my FA weaver and scrapper also don't have unblockable...

you are suggesting an insane buff to a class that only needs to be nerfed

you said to punish people for hitting into a reflect (specifically calling that a lack of brain power, while you are able to activate a reflect with the projectile already mid air), which is alright if there are options to play around it and the uptime on reflect is not pretty much permanent. your FA weaver has plenty of non projectile damage on the kit if you havent noticed btw.

i did not propose an insane buff, its not like you constantly shoot through other people to hit your target. in a 1 vs 1 its not even a buff at all. but you just read 'buff' and instantly refuse without even considering what is proposed.

3 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

also I did not demand an exception for only death's judgement no idea where you got that from...  what i'm saying is that the reflect mechanic altogether needs to be fixed, not just this ability...

then i suppose i misunderstood this :

6 hours ago, RazieL.5684 said:

considering there are things like gunflame with the weird bug that the reflected ability doesn't calculate the range properly, afaik this is the only such ability, they can clearly easily make adjustments to a single ability if the ability is reflected to treat the new target (IE the caster) with the same buffs/debuffs that would apply to the first target including might/prot/malice... that's how good games have been doing it forever...

my apologies then.

9 minutes ago, RazieL.5684 said:

and finally idk what me being in cele in that occasion has to do with anything... I find that fa has better chances to deal with this broken braindead class but in this case I was in cele... so? would me being in zerker change the reflect mechanic? no? then why mention it? trying to take a jab at me right after I was trying to be nice to you? amazing community... of degens...

yes trying to be nice, by calling deadeyes that you reflect lacking brain power. you having cele does not change the reflect mechanic, but with the high uptime on projectile hate and the sustain from cele, it should be impossible for you to die to a deadeye that remains on rifle, while on zerker you could easily die in a second when there is small gap in your projectile hate.

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😂

1 hour ago, RazieL.5684 said:

ranger and warrior having unblockable and thief not is not an argument... my FA weaver and scrapper also don't have unblockable...

you are suggesting an insane buff to a class that only needs to be nerfed

just like this idiot here...

@Androx.8572 wanna get out of stealth and get good? no? thought so...

this is why I said I don't want to post this in the thief section...

also I did not demand an exception for only death's judgement no idea where you got that from...  what i'm saying is that the reflect mechanic altogether needs to be fixed, not just this ability...

and finally idk what me being in cele in that occasion has to do with anything... I find that fa has better chances to deal with this broken braindead class but in this case I was in cele... so? would me being in zerker change the reflect mechanic? no? then why mention it? trying to take a jab at me right after I was trying to be nice to you? amazing community... of degens...

😂🍿

Edited by Androx.8572
typo
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14 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

you said to punish people for hitting into a reflect (specifically calling that a lack of brain power, while you are able to activate a reflect with the projectile already mid air), which is alright if there are options to play around it and the uptime on reflect is not pretty much permanent. your FA weaver has plenty of non projectile damage on the kit if you havent noticed btw.

what's your point? if a deadeye uses death's judgement i should dodge, but if i reflect his death's judgement he shouldn't? the uptime on reflects is absolutely not "pretty much permanent" unless you are talking about big groups and then deadeyes have enough mobility and stealth to literally flank around more than half of those...

and yes my fa weaver has a few abilities that are not projectile considering ele can't just swap to melee weapons like a thief... again what's your point?

21 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i did not propose an insane buff, its not like you constantly shoot through other people to hit your target. in a 1 vs 1 its not even a buff at all. but you just read 'buff' and instantly refuse without even considering what is proposed.

increase the damage of targets it passes through 7x - "no big deal" imagine me asking the orbs of cata hammer to do only just 1k damage... 1k is not much right? it's not like you have the orbs up all the time, it's only 8 sec in wvw... "no big deal" are you gonna refuse it just because you saw "buff" ?

33 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

then i suppose i misunderstood this :

yes, you did... you stated:

8 hours ago, bq pd.2148 said:

i don't think anet can easily make an exception how reflect is handled for a single skill.

so i responded with a single skill example that works separately from the others...

 

36 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

my apologies then.

your sarcastic apologies do not amuse me...

 

36 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said:

yes trying to be nice, by calling deadeyes that you reflect lacking brain power. you having cele does not change the reflect mechanic, but with the high uptime on projectile hate and the sustain from cele, it should be impossible for you to die to a deadeye that remains on rifle, while on zerker you could easily die in a second when there is small gap in your projectile hate.

yes, trying to be nice by stating i was kinda starting to enjoy the discussion before the brain rot hit the thread...

and do you think it takes more brain power to time a reflect for what you want or just randomly shoot out death's judgements without any thought or fear that it might hit you back because it hits you for 100 damage? really think about your answer here!

can you please teach me about this permanent projectile hate that ele has as i do not know of it

focus has magnetic wave which is a 3 second duration with 25 seconds cd

swirling winds which is a 6 second duration with a 30 seconds cd

cata has elemental epitome a 3 second magnetic aura (which is 2 seconds in pvp and i will not be surprised if they nerf it in wvw too) with a 10 seconds cooldown but this one you have to cast rock barrier on a 15 seconds cd, have enough energy to drop a sphere or combo it with another field which you have to have done preemptively and then cast hurl at a target (which is in stealth so good luck with that) to proc it at the right time unless you proc it with magnetic wave because you have to time it right and you don't have time to waste casting a 1700 shield to absorb a 8k+ crit and then cast hurl to gain the aura

and finally the new cata build with signets has a signet of earth aura for 2 seconds on a 25 seconds cd

so these 2-3 second auras on a 25-30 second cd are what everyone is calling "practically permanent" how exactly am i supposed to stop myself from laughing at you? meanwhile the "skillful" deadeye just goes into actual permanent stealth and heals to full even if i did manage to hit him for that 100...

also while your statement "it should be impossible for you to die to a deadeye that remains on rifle" is empirically wrong, why would the deadeye remain on rifle only? the same deadeye today crit me for 6700 heartseekers while i was above 50% hp so good thing i had all that projectile hate right? right?... alas that was not part of the discussion i wanted to have so i never mentioned that...

you bore me now...

ps. the irony is that deadeye actually has permanent projectile hate with sniper's cover...

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well i answered your question for the thread and i dont think further going down your rant will get us to a productive end and would certainly no longer be on topic, readers bias may decide which of us two is more delusional. have a wonderful night.

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At this point it can be pointed out, a reflected death judgment works exactly as the skill description indicates.
It can only do decent damage against the marked target.

If the reflected death judgement would keep the original damage, then this would be a buff for the skill (to the advantage of the 'reflect' caster). Because that way, any ricochet (other people in projectile trajectory) on the way to the thief would also deal the full damage in favor of the caster (no marked target - no criterion to scale damage for ricochets). That doesn't seem quite fair to me.

Further, how should situations be handled when a DE fights person A and a person B places a reflective wall between DE and person A. What damage is the reflective projectile supposed to do? The damage the marked person A would suffer or the damage the unmarked person B would suffer? This question is related to zerg fights.

So it's really not that easy to find a clear solution for this particular skill.
Actually, you can be happy about every DE that shoots at your reflective bubble. He wastes his stealth attack and may also spend some initiative by continuing to shoot (at this point significant damage is reflected).

 

What really remains from the whole discussion is the question of how reflected projectiles should be handled in the game.
Should the original damage be retained? Physics would clearly say no, because a change in the trajectory also means a loss of energy for the projectile.
Should the projectiles be reflected back to the shooter or bounce off at an angle.

Overall, ANET's implementation seems appropriate to me, that the damage of the reflected projectile is dependent on the stats of the 'reflect' caster.
Thus, the damage of the reflected projectile should ideally always be smaller than the projectile on its original trajectory.

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9 hours ago, Metze.2849 said:

If the reflected death judgement would keep the original damage, then this would be a buff for the skill (to the advantage of the 'reflect' caster). Because that way, any ricochet (other people in projectile trajectory) on the way to the thief would also deal the full damage in favor of the caster (no marked target - no criterion to scale damage for ricochets). That doesn't seem quite fair to me.

what?... you know who the caster is, you know who the target is... if the target was marked then treat the caster as marked, doesn't matter who it passes through... it feels unfair to you that it may do more damage to targets it passes by on the way back but it doesn't feel unfair to you that it does 10k damage but only 100 if it gets reflected... mmmhmmm...

9 hours ago, Metze.2849 said:

Further, how should situations be handled when a DE fights person A and a person B places a reflective wall between DE and person A. What damage is the reflective projectile supposed to do? The damage the marked person A would suffer or the damage the unmarked person B would suffer? This question is related to zerg fights.

So it's really not that easy to find a clear solution for this particular skill.

it's extremely easy to find a clear solution for this particular skill i already stated it several times... the deadeye should suffer the damage the deadeye would suffer from... it's a reflect! you are supposed to hit yourself with it!

9 hours ago, Metze.2849 said:

What really remains from the whole discussion is the question of how reflected projectiles should be handled in the game.
Should the original damage be retained? Physics would clearly say no, because a change in the trajectory also means a loss of energy for the projectile.
Should the projectiles be reflected back to the shooter or bounce off at an angle.

Overall, ANET's implementation seems appropriate to me, that the damage of the reflected projectile is dependent on the stats of the 'reflect' caster.
Thus, the damage of the reflected projectile should ideally always be smaller than the projectile on its original trajectory.

yes, the original damage should be retained as in the other 99% of games that have reflect mechanics... i was shocked to learn the abysmal way it is done in gw2, just shameful...

Physics? O.o ......................................................................

ANET's implementation is on the level of some privet servers of WoW from 10 years ago... a warrior could spell reflect a chaos bolt that hit for 100 because it scaled with the warriors spell damage (0 ofc)... now since then they have fixed that but anet hasn't so right now anet is on a below privet servers level...

it's ok the reflected projectile to do "less" damage than the original for example if it calculates armor twice or something so instead of 10k it would do 8k 6k maybe even? but 100x reduction in damage is absurd nonsense... in that case you don't have a reflect you have a block, which admittedly is also not bad but kinda defeats the purpose of having a reflect on anything that is not exactly the same type of damage as your opponent (IE power vs power and condi vs condi and kitten supports i guess)

thanks for participating in this discussion but it's pretty much over at this point

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