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Why is the thief so neglected?


Invecta.5321

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Thief by far has the most boring specs and the weapon-skillsets are mostly useless.

Speaking of PvE, the entire base-weapons are just garbage and stuck in 2012. 

  • Sword? Useless skillset
  • Shortbow? Useless skillset
  • Pistols? No AoE and undertuned
  • Daggers? Boring and awkward to use

 

Every weapon for the thief feels like having five, weak auto-attacks instead of coherent abilities. 

And dont get me started out on those mind-numbing "specializations" putting any reasonable player to sleep. Literally every thief's spec boils down to "spam one single button until a condition is met, press another button, then repeat spamming that single button". 

 

 

And to top it off we're going to get such a boring weapon like an MH axe, which will probably end up being a crappier version of the rangers MH axe.

I just want a fun power-build with lots of cleaving-potential and big numbers, which could've easily been achieved via greatsword, longbow or hammer. But no, a-net wants thief to be a gimmick class which is constantly outperformed by other classes in terms of utility, aesthetic and FUN.

Edited by Invecta.5321
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Such is the nature of the initiative system.  Skills are individually meant to not feel high-impact because they're meant to be used well-timed or in rapid repetition as the situation demands.

If you wanted some big damaging cleave class and are not interested in rapid consecutive attacks, you should be playing a big-damaging-cleave class, such as Reaper.

As to why the class is spammy in PvE, it's because the only actual difficulty in PvE is things largely being big stat-sticks with enough health to justify spamming the highest-hitting skills, rather than dynamic enemies with better AI.

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I'm suspecting that this is a troll thread.  Not only does thief have a power build with a lot of cleave (Staff Daredevil), but the core weapons have a ton of skills that can, and do, get used.  Sword in particular has a massive utility set that includes a teleport, immobilize, evades, boon rip, CC from stealth, and weakness on auto.  

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7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm suspecting that this is a troll thread.  Not only does thief have a power build with a lot of cleave (Staff Daredevil), but the core weapons have a ton of skills that can, and do, get used.  Sword in particular has a massive utility set that includes a teleport, immobilize, evades, boon rip, CC from stealth, and weakness on auto.  

Sword "utility" in pve is useless.

Staff skill 2 is weird and ineffective vs fast moving targets, which leaves you AoE potential to spam skill 5 (no ini after 2 uses) and autoattacks.

It can be good in some situations, but it surely is not a great weapon...

Also counsider that when other classes have their skills interrupted they go on a 4s cd, while thief doesn't get ini back if skill 5 is interrupted at the end, dealing no dmg and consuming almost half ini bar. And nor core thief or daredevil have access to stab to prevent this in CC heavy situations

 

Edited by TheThief.8475
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7 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I'm suspecting that this is a troll thread.  Not only does thief have a power build with a lot of cleave (Staff Daredevil), but the core weapons have a ton of skills that can, and do, get used.  Sword in particular has a massive utility set that includes a teleport, immobilize, evades, boon rip, CC from stealth, and weakness on auto.  

Im suspecting you never set a foot into high-end content. Where the hell does a sword get used there? And where the hell does a sword get used in meta-events?

Also i find staff daredevil extremely clunky. Its supposed to be this highly mobile class but ironically most abilities have way too long animations or lock you while executing. 

8 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

Such is the nature of the initiative system.  Skills are individually meant to not feel high-impact because they're meant to be used well-timed or in rapid repetition as the situation demands.

If you wanted some big damaging cleave class and are not interested in rapid consecutive attacks, you should be playing a big-damaging-cleave class, such as Reaper.

As to why the class is spammy in PvE, it's because the only actual difficulty in PvE is things largely being big stat-sticks with enough health to justify spamming the highest-hitting skills, rather than dynamic enemies with better AI.

My point is, why do i as a thief have to switch class in order to have fun? All other classes have specs or weapon skillsets which feel fun and kind of engaging. 

Edited by Invecta.5321
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sword/dagger: can be good in pvp is not a horrible weapon in meta events and open world because of being survivable.

sword/pistol: bad

shortbow: an actually versatile weapon because it has both a blast and physical projectile finishers and a on demand poison field meaning it can gain access to stealth to allies(blast + smoke field (from utilities)), weakness (poison + blast), blind (projectile + smoke), and poison (projectile + poison) all really help for a thief.

pistol/pistol: dual wield is expensive and as a whole not worth it but it lets people fulfill class fantasy of deadeye.

dagger/pistol: a broken way to stack 9 sec of stealth by comboing heartseeker  into smoke field.

pistol/dagger: offers alternative core condi weapon that is easier to use than shortbow and has a gap opener and is fun to use with dagger/pistol.

dagger/dagger: and overnerfed core condi weapon because of interactions with daredevil

Mainly thief is overnerfed in pvp gamemodes currently because of being able to perma stealth and a lot of people complaining. This may be what you are having trouble with.

as for axe it may be able to give us cleave if it is based more off of mirage's axe than ranger's. I think it will most likely be a condi MH weapon because we already have dagger which besides the aa which nobody uses is a power weapon. I personally was hoping for MH torch, OH sword, or greatsword but anet decided to give us a weapon that no one (at least on the forums) was asking for similar to what they did with catalyst.

Edited by Infinity.2876
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4 hours ago, TheThief.8475 said:

Sword "utility" in pve is useless.

Staff skill 2 is weird and ineffective vs fast moving targets, which leaves you AoE potential to spam skill 5 (no ini after 2 uses) and autoattacks.

It can be good in some situations, but it surely is not a great weapon...

Also counsider that when other classes have their skills interrupted they go on a 4s cd, while thief doesn't get ini back if skill 5 is interrupted at the end, dealing no dmg and consuming almost half ini bar. And nor core thief or daredevil have access to stab to prevent this in CC heavy situations

 

It's really not.  Aside from the personal condi cleanse on demand, one of the other advantages is the safe damage done while evading with black powder + pistol whip.  It renders anything without a breakbar nearly helpless, and I use that combination when I'm soloing dungeons.  S/D isn't to be underestimated as well, since the quick timing in flanking strike means you can avoid almost all attacks, and it comes with a spammable boon rip for situations that demand it.  As somebody that regularly PUGs content, that need arises from time to time.  The dagger off-hand is better at tagging mobs, but it does have the disadvantage of less CC.  I use Sword/Pistol + Rifle as the standard kit on Deadeye, largely because I have the rifle for high single target DPS and would rather have the evades/CC/cleanse/teleport that the sword gives than the raw low% damage that dagger gives.

Staff is the weapon I use to tank the Sand Giant.  The use of Vault for mobility and evades is greatly underrated, and it has the ability to cleave 5.  It's auto attack reflects projectiles, weakening charge is stupidly easy to use and reduces incoming damage for teammates by 25%, and Dust Strike can be used periodically to blind enemies to protect teammates.  The only odd-ball skill IMO is #3, but it does have use for removing immobilize.  If I'm fighting against an enemy that's too mobile for weakening charge, which are quite rare, then I'm either swapping to P/P and spamming Unload at a distance for easy tracking damage, or I'm bringing Deadeye/Specter.  All that is an aside, since Staff is still a high cleaving power weapon.  

 

4 hours ago, Invecta.5321 said:

Im suspecting you never set a foot into high-end content. Where the hell does a sword get used there? And where the hell does a sword get used in meta-events?

Also i find staff daredevil extremely clunky. Its supposed to be this highly mobile class but ironically most abilities have way too long animations or lock you while executing. 

Welcome to the forums.  You may not know me, but I'm known for writing a small guide pre-EoD on the strengths and weaknesses of each spec on every single raid boss.  Post-EoD, specter's lack of forced movement and locking makes it good in  lot of circumstances where previously thief wasn't (Soulless Horror and Twin Largos, for example).  That all said, sword get used primarily in overworld, dungeons, and fractals where it is important to cleave enemies, avoid attacks with pistol whip + black powder, and self-cleansing conditions is more important.  Also to note that specter healing builds, both power and condi, will frequently run sword.  This is to spam infiltrator's strike for burst healing, but the harrier power versions will also use off-hand dagger for boon rips.  In meta events, sword + dagger is used to cleave distant enemies with dagger 4, get to enemies fast with infiltrator's strike, and auto-cleave enemies down that are nearby.  I use this on Deadeye quite frequently.

I've found the exact opposite with staff.  The only animation lock worth noting is weakening charge  Everything else is quite fast, and Vault itself is good movement skills.  I have to restrain myself while playing Daredevil, because other people find it annoying when I go bouncing all over the place.  

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Thief has a more technical design than the other more casual classes who get easy mode (Necro, Guardian) and is basically is the equivilent of the mentality behind rolling "Deprived" in "Dark Souls;" which is the class that starts naked with bad stats making it squishy and reliant on not getting hit at all and requires growth and personal experience to become strong rather than being 'born into privilege.' I mean it's a Thief, they're poor and have to steal to get by XD

Also comparable to living the 'Be Quick Or Be Killed' life of  "Let Me Solo Her"/Tsuboi in "Elden Ring"~ a popular gamer who helps hundreds of people kill the hardest bosses with no armor on, relying entirely on speed and dodging. This is also how I play those games as I go with fashion clothing over defense, like Desert Sorcerer outfit, and enjoy the challenge... It's a fun path for some but by basic human instincts the majority of people in the world rather have an easier life full of privilege, so not many will dedicate a lot of time to the class, if any.

And the developers are ordinary people who happen to have those same instincts. They likely aren't the type of "Deprived Dark Souls" gamer who would enjoy Thief, and they're probably not even the team or person who designed Thief on launch anymore so they're left with something they didn't create, and they don't have a lot of interest or experience in playing the class themselves on their free time and will just put in the minimal work hours on it with a stationary target golem before returning to the classes they enjoy the most on a personal level.

Until they hire that type of "Deprived Dark Souls" gamer onto their team, someone who actually enjoys such a fast, volatile and risky gameplay style that's supposed to have equivalent reward attached to it... then it will likely continue to get the least attention or further lose it's identity; such as how Specter sacrifices all it's Thief weapons, a big chunk of their initiative system, and their speedy playstyle to be a Mini-Necromancer that can only do Condi on one target.

The BG3 experiments recently done by Larian Studio's also showed that people are far less likely to play "Evil" characters and they had to address playerbase in doing so more often so they can do more testing on those paths. I wonder if carrying the name "Thief" and just the nature of the class in general carries some dirty stigma with it, especially with Human personal story being filled with evil ones and maybe that is influencing it negatively, even subconciously, but who knoez. Maybe it's possible it would have lived a better life if it was still named "Assassin;" as that name carries something nearly everyone loves, twice even.

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14 hours ago, Invecta.5321 said:

Im suspecting you never set a foot into high-end content. Where the hell does a sword get used there? And where the hell does a sword get used in meta-events?

Also i find staff daredevil extremely clunky. Its supposed to be this highly mobile class but ironically most abilities have way too long animations or lock you while executing. 

My point is, why do i as a thief have to switch class in order to have fun? All other classes have specs or weapon skillsets which feel fun and kind of engaging. 

Because your definition if "having fun" is different from others' who prefer the playstyle of individual skills being less-powerful with more tools with emphasis on avoiding rotations, and because the class can't be balanced if it has something like Rapid Fire without a cooldown, without either making it prohibitively expensive and never used, or making every other skill and extra function on the weapon complete and utter trash.

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On 7/28/2023 at 3:38 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

 The only odd-ball skill IMO is #3, but it does have use for removing immobilize. 

I tend to use #3 as a substitute for dodging backward so I can then Bound back in. Not sure how that compares to just accepting that the Bound is going to miss and then spending the initiative on a Vault back in, though.

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On 7/26/2023 at 7:26 PM, Invecta.5321 said:

Thief by far has the most boring specs and the weapon-skillsets are mostly useless.

Speaking of PvE, the entire base-weapons are just garbage and stuck in 2012. 

  • Sword? Useless skillset
  • Shortbow? Useless skillset
  • Pistols? No AoE and undertuned
  • Daggers? Boring and awkward to use

 

Every weapon for the thief feels like having five, weak auto-attacks instead of coherent abilities. 

And dont get me started out on those mind-numbing "specializations" putting any reasonable player to sleep. Literally every thief's spec boils down to "spam one single button until a condition is met, press another button, then repeat spamming that single button". 

 

 

And to top it off we're going to get such a boring weapon like an MH axe, which will probably end up being a crappier version of the rangers MH axe.

I just want a fun power-build with lots of cleaving-potential and big numbers, which could've easily been achieved via greatsword, longbow or hammer. But no, a-net wants thief to be a gimmick class which is constantly outperformed by other classes in terms of utility, aesthetic and FUN.

Honestly, 100% it was under the previous balance team. Now it's trending towards it not being more positive. Sure there are problems or pain points, however there are now support options for a class that was labeled a "selfish class" for years.

  • There have been QoL's for deadeye that actually made it more fun and popular to play.
  • There was recently a QoL to power daredevil which in my opinion was a little neglected since the banners/spirit's rework before EoD.
  • There was recently a QoL to specter, removing the need to spam wells off of cooldown to upkeep alac.
  • Thief now gets a quickness build. The damage got nerfed and I haven't had much time to play recently, but at least it's something new.

I agree, it would be nice if some sort of system would be introduced to add spiciness to thief rotations. I personally think it would have been cool if there were some sort of combo damage modifier for the amount of unique weapon skills that were used in order. That might raise the skill floor for thief though. Off the top of my head I also think there are other pain points that need to be addressed, such as QoL's to venoms, a icon indicator for quick pockets amongst other things such as deadeye mark bugs being fixed and deadeyes mark being cleared when a boss becomes invulnerable or during a "phase". Could I see improvements elsewhere, to say sword damage in PvE? Yes, but there are more and more options these days which is nice. I am not going to complain about that.

I agree, I don't really like the fact that we will get main hand axe (but on the positive we get a new weapon and the quick turnaround for expansions means we might get off hand weapons later). I would have preferred off hand axe or dual axes for the next expansion though. Off hand axe would have provided four builds instead of just two. It would add more flavor to a ton of builds. Although maybe it's not being added as a off hand because it's focus will be cleave vs stealth.

  • Dagger - Axe
  • Pistol - Axe
  • Scepter - Axe
  • Sword - Axe

I disagree about Hammer, great sword, or longbow. Those weapons do not make sense for thief. Why not use staff daredevil? It does all that you are talking about.

Edited by ZeroTheRuler.7415
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I think there are a couple of things mainhand axe could potentially do that an offhand can't:

The first is giving specter a decent melee option. Specter really depends on torment application, so dagger/dagger doesn't really work in that department.

The second is that deadeye in particular (all thieves, really, but it's particularly important with deadeye) is lacking a condition-oriented melee ambush skill. Axe could possibly provide one.

Come to think on it, I could see ArenaNet taking the opportunity to specialise thief weapons more in general. For instance, with scepter made available to every thief, they might decide to rebalance pistol as more of a power weapon... or take the opposite approach and rebalance it as a non-Torment-oriented condition weapon, including Unload inflicting bleeds, on the basis that rifle has single-target power damage covered.

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On 7/31/2023 at 6:19 PM, Cherry Garcia.8351 said:

its good in pvp if used right.

source: 2000 hours of my total 3000 hours (Source: (gw2 game /age command ,Calculator.net) (source: (Google Chrome)))), on thief almost exclusively in wvw

It takes way more effort to be effective now compared to what other classes can do for free. 

No longer top of mobility, no longer the best at stealth. Other classes can do higher burst, and higher AoE damage than our single target. 

(1,977 out of my 4200 hours in game.)

 

Edited by ixon.2496
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