Reduce Energy cost on Rev abilities?

[Jaylightsol.9824]

Would love to see this as some of these ability numbers are near or more than half the amount of the starting number (50)

With the state of the game being so burst related I would think limiting Rev to having high energy cost limits their ability to compete with some of these extremely high dps characters in at the very least  PvP/Wpvp. Reducing their energy cost to things sub 10/20 would be reasonable as well as setting a baseline on upkeep abilities to 5-6. 

While I am new to rev this seems to be one of the limiting factors i dislike the most. When other classes can just spam all their abilities and not really face much of an issue for massive burst damage, rev can  get hung up or slowed down and down right not even be able to use certain abilities due to the lockout.

I would like to state that I am open to maybe this being a "Get Better" thing,  though if that is the case i would like to understand how.

I appreciate any and all feedback since I am eager to learn how to be better or know that i'm not the only one that feels this issue.

For reference:

I am a Renegade/Invok/Retribution build 

Short Bow/Hammer+Axe

Shiro/Jalis

[Erenias.6947]

Rev weapon skills are relatively cheap on the energy cost, as a result they're in the same-ish power level as other classes weapon skills. It's the utility skills where energy costs can be quite high, and that's because rev utility skills are really good.

Take a quick look at Jalis for instance. Pulsing AoE stab (10 sec cd), 20% dmg reduction + healing (upkeep), 50% strike damage reduction (0 sec cd, 5 sec duration). If you want to make these skills cost less energy you would have to decrease their power or increase their CD. 

[Virdo.1540]

Id rather wish they would lower the cooldowns of skills, since this is what rev was supposed to be. 
No or very low cooldowns, limited by energy. (Of course herald would be an exception)

On top id wish the Charged mist trait in invocation would always give +25energy on swap, not just when swapping under 10energy

Edited August 2, 2023 by Virdo.1540
grammatical reasons

[The Spiral King.2483]

Having a couple more interesting options for limiting energy drain or getting more energy like Replenishing Despair or Charged Mists would be a better way of going about it in my mind. Since Corruption and Invocation already have one each, maybe have each of the core four offer one with a corresponding tradeoff (Replenishing Despair) or have a strict condition to  be met (Charged Mists).

[Shagie.7612]

shortbow rene's really energy hungry in pvp, you gotta be really on point with your enabling/disable impossible odds+hammers

they could stand to lower it some, or bump damage back up a bit considering how glass it is, but neither of those seem particularly likely to happen
especially not in wvw cause lol cele gear

[dace.8019]

Shiro's utlilities in PvE are a little pricey too, particularly because you'll want to get as much Impossible Odds out of him as you can, and just by running IO for a short while leaves the rest greyed out.

[Manpag.6421]

3 hours ago, dace.8019 said:

Shiro's utlilities in PvE are a little pricey too, particularly because you'll want to get as much Impossible Odds out of him as you can, and just by running IO for a short while leaves the rest greyed out.

They’re more than a little pricey. I want to use Shiro, but let’s compare his skills to Archemorus’s, as the only other power-focused legend. His heal is cheaper, but has a punishing 30s cooldown vs Archemorus’s 10s. The Luxon utility skills have 10, 15, and 15 costs respectively, while Shiro has two 30 energy skills and a 5/-1. Even if you AREN’T using IO, you can’t use two of those back-to-back at the start of combat. Shiro’s elite is arguably more useful than Archemorus’s, but 50 vs 20 energy is ridiculous.

He has no might generation except through the Notoriety trait, which can’t generate much because his skills are so expensive, and paltry amounts of Fury and Quickness generation split across two 30e skills while Archemorus can maintain both fury and quickness with 0 boon duration from a single 15e skill even with no target.

I know Legendary Alliance Stance is elite, but the gap between core and elite legends serving the same purpose should not be that big; Legendary Assassin Stance needs some big energy reductions as well as several buffs, in PvE at least.

[Shao.7236]

8 hours ago, Manpag.6421 said:

Legendary Assassin Stance needs some big energy reductions as well as several buffs, in PvE at least.

Then what? You'll still be stuck using Impossible Odds regardless, unless you think spamming Jade Winds or Phase Traversal is any fun.

Removing Quickness from it was one of the worst mistakes they've done for Revenant. Most of the initial design was poured into the idea of doing things quicker, especially for Hammer.

You're much of the time supposed to use assassin skills and then switch legends as you do regardless.

[Manpag.6421]

9 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Then what? You'll still be stuck using Impossible Odds regardless, unless you think spamming Jade Winds or Phase Traversal is any fun.

Both of those skills are fun, and I’d use them more often if they were cheaper. Jade Winds would be much more useful for defiance bar damage if it was cheaper, and Phase Traversal is the key mobility skill that sets Shiro apart from other legends; a 1200 range shadow step is really handy for getting between groups of mobs. Really, PT needs the recharge reducing or removing in PvE — with the cost and cooldown you can’t even use it for quickly taking out trash mobs, but nor is it advantageous to use it to get into combat that’ll take longer than 5s to kill, because then you don’t want to be starting with only 20e.

The fact that you’re boiling Shiro down to only Impossible Odds being useful shows how badly his other skills need buffs or reworks, especially as Vengeful Hammers is a comparable and often outright superior skill. 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

The fact they don't pick a lane with revenants is the confusing part. We have an energy cost on a bar that starts only half full, but each of our powers has a CD attached to it. Having two costs, essentially, doesn't seem to be justified either as our damage or healing isn't really much better or stronger than others.

[Shao.7236]

8 hours ago, Manpag.6421 said:

Both of those skills are fun, and I’d use them more often if they were cheaper. Jade Winds would be much more useful for defiance bar damage if it was cheaper, and Phase Traversal is the key mobility skill that sets Shiro apart from other legends; a 1200 range shadow step is really handy for getting between groups of mobs. Really, PT needs the recharge reducing or removing in PvE — with the cost and cooldown you can’t even use it for quickly taking out trash mobs, but nor is it advantageous to use it to get into combat that’ll take longer than 5s to kill, because then you don’t want to be starting with only 20e.

The fact that you’re boiling Shiro down to only Impossible Odds being useful shows how badly his other skills need buffs or reworks, especially as Vengeful Hammers is a comparable and often outright superior skill. 

Jade Wind is high risk high reward that forces you to play the class and there's no other way to have it without making it super unfun in either way possible. Literally outside being a CC the skill is a damage buff that follows up with it's own associated trait line.

Phase Traversal has a cooldown because without it you leave room for dumb interactions such as covering 2400 range which is the hall mark of bad design since no class can do that without relying on different skills. That's without the mention of neglecting other benefits that comes with PT.

The way you're looking at it, like you want to be Revenant and somehow avoid the mechanics surrounding it.

Btw, Impossible Odds is good if you flow it with the spec main attribute which is quickness outside of that it's not. Obviously if you don't trait around it, it's gonna be trash. It's almost as if again they don't want you to camp legends because that's not how they want you to play Revenant yet everyone forcefully tries to.

[Buran.3796]

On 7/28/2023 at 11:02 AM, Jaylightsol.9824 said:

When other classes can just spam all their abilities and not really face much of an issue for massive burst damage, rev can  get hung up or slowed down and down right not even be able to use certain abilities due to the lockout.

 

For reference:

I am a Renegade/Invok/Retribution build 

Short Bow/Hammer+Axe

Shiro/Jalis

   With "other classes just spam all their abilities and not really face much of an issue" you mean casting the skills and then waiting the pertinent cooldown , I guess? Most of utilities have cooldowns between 15 and 90+ seconds, which is far from "spammy". Yes, some classes have unbalances, mostly being able to rotate defensive skills for a while until the loop is off cd again, but this also happens with the Revenant.

  I'm not sure of energy cost being "as expensive". I think that other classes are currently stronger at PvP/WvW yet, aside from Harbingers, I'm not struggling with Rev at those landscapes (playing Renebow and Vindi). I'm not particulary good yet las Conquest season was at gold III most of the time, which to me is fine given the skill gap and low pop. The 3 v 3 mini season is also going well. 

   The main problem is ATs, due some specs are overtuned, and is no easy (for any class) to fit a slot in the meta when 3 slots are already filled with Ele variants because the main balance designer mains an loves that class.

   I would prefer from ANet to focus on removing bugs which keep some of our choices unviable. Also, fix the downstate push that cages enemies inside walls: is sad to see a match lost due one of the players got jailed in the "Phantom Zone".

[Aeolus.3615]

On 7/28/2023 at 10:02 AM, Jaylightsol.9824 said:

Would love to see this as some of these ability numbers are near or more than half the amount of the starting number (50)

With the state of the game being so burst related I would think limiting Rev to having high energy cost limits their ability to compete with some of these extremely high dps characters in at the very least  PvP/Wpvp. Reducing their energy cost to things sub 10/20 would be reasonable as well as setting a baseline on upkeep abilities to 5-6. 

While I am new to rev this seems to be one of the limiting factors i dislike the most. When other classes can just spam all their abilities and not really face much of an issue for massive burst damage, rev can  get hung up or slowed down and down right not even be able to use certain abilities due to the lockout.

I would like to state that I am open to maybe this being a "Get Better" thing,  though if that is the case i would like to understand how.

I appreciate any and all feedback since I am eager to learn how to be better or know that i'm not the only one that feels this issue.

For reference:

I am a Renegade/Invok/Retribution build 

Short Bow/Hammer+Axe

Shiro/Jalis

To make stuff cheaper that would force Anet to increased the utils CD quite a bit, i imagine players rather have the current cost than longer CD, and there is a trait on Deamon malyx traitline that makes rev gain +1 pip with results on -6 e-utils having infinite uptime rather than a total -1 on total energy degen.

You have to learn to do a better  e-management on your build.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Aeolus.3615

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

I am fine with energy costs. My personal pet peeve is that the moment we get a good tool to deal with heavy condition spam in a damage dealing spec, it got it's cd tremendously increased.

Gives me conniptions. So much absurd bs still in spvp mode and we can't even have condi cleanse.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Vasdamas Anklast.1607

[Manpag.6421]

22 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Jade Wind is high risk high reward that forces you to play the class and there's no other way to have it without making it super unfun in either way possible. Literally outside being a CC the skill is a damage buff that follows up with it's own associated trait line.

Phase Traversal has a cooldown because without it you leave room for dumb interactions such as covering 2400 range which is the hall mark of bad design since no class can do that without relying on different skills. That's without the mention of neglecting other benefits that comes with PT.

Fair point about Jade Winds, though I’ll always miss the (useless, but thematically excellent) Jade Echo trait that cast a weaker version when you were downed.

I’m not sure covering 2400 range is such a big thing, especially in PvE where people will soon be able to mount up on their skyscale mid-combat and dash across the whole battlefield anyway. On release, it had no recharge and 20e cost, and you still couldn’t spam it unless it was the only skill you were using. I can appreciate how broken that was in competitive modes, though.

22 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

The way you're looking at it, like you want to be Revenant and somehow avoid the mechanics surrounding it.

Btw, Impossible Odds is good if you flow it with the spec main attribute which is quickness outside of that it's not. Obviously if you don't trait around it, it's gonna be trash. It's almost as if again they don't want you to camp legends because that's not how they want you to play Revenant yet everyone forcefully tries to.

One of the key mechanics of revenant is energy management. One way of doing that is by swapping legends, but that isn’t the exclusive playstyle that revenant must always do. One of the selling points of rev is that you can either slot complementary legends and swap between them, or slot legends that fill entirely different roles and camp the one you need in the moment. In fact, this was something that was almost forced on you from the start, since each core legend has a totally different focus; its only through elite specs that you could wholly devote a rev to power damage, condition damage, or healing while still frequently swapping between legends.

The point is, on release revenant was kind of like a heavy-armour thief, with all utility skills having no/low cooldown to compensate for the resource management, like thief with initiative. Over time, the costs of core legend skills have crept up and they’ve had cooldowns extended or added, while elite specs have added skills that either allow or encourage you to camp them (either stance of Legendary Alliance can heal 3 times in the time it takes Shiro, Jalis, or Mallyx to heal once, and that’s without switching stance to use both 10s recharge heal skills). All I’m asking is that the core legends be brought more in line with them.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

The energy cost doesn't bother me, in the end. I don't think it's a fair assessment either to say that revenants are mitigating cool down with energy costs since a lot are arbitrary it seems, with little rhyme or reason. But what does compound this is that we get this supposed freedom from CDs at not just the cost of an energy bar, but also the cost of utility freedom. This deadlock seems to mystify even ANet since they can't decide if we should be constantly legend swapping which is a detriment when we need certain things then and there, or not.

The recent herald changes make it a beast of DPS now, but has really hurt them as a support healer. Renegade doesn't have any real good identity to the point most builds tend to ignore Kallah entirely to just be an automatic alac dispenser, and vindicator can be a good DPS and an amazing healer but unwanted for both because they have no boon support because of boomer ideologies from people unwilling to change and adapt and ANet seemingly showing no basic idea of where to go other than to go by golem testing.

The energy bar has become a bit of an issue with this. Herald, again, has become a prime example of this fundamental structure that basically requires the herald to use Charged Mists to maximize the build now. While I don't think the energy system is broken, per se, it is unwieldly now, and there needs to be something looked at. Stating the energy cost is to mitigate cooldown, seems to be irrelevant since the CDs on prime attacks are barely shorter than others. Never mind the fact that unlike other Professions, revenant does not get the full benefit of alacrity since part of our powers relies on energy too, not just the CD.

You can't really say that using Corruption to give us an extra pip is a solid choice either since unless you are going condition specced, it doesn't really help out, never mind giving yourself constant torment. This is further compounded by the fact that when it does come to the reality of revenant, a heavily melee oriented profession, we don't have the tools that help benefit us in that melee centric style. Our vortex power is on Malyx, and it costs us 30 energy so you end up tanking your offensive capabilities just to use a vortex power. Add onto that Malyx only really works well for condition specced, so if you are a power build you're kind of shot.

I dunno what to say needs to be done in the end, not sure if costs need to be gone over again or what, but the fact we have to give up utility choice, and still have no signs of having an idea of where the profession is wanted to go, I think something needs to be done.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Ravenwulfe.5360

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Definitely a “l2p revenant better” issue going on in this thread, at least with PvE complaints (tho Shiro energy cost complaints for PvE are valid) 

[Shao.7236]

23 hours ago, Manpag.6421 said:

Fair point about Jade Winds, though I’ll always miss the (useless, but thematically excellent) Jade Echo trait that cast a weaker version when you were downed.

I’m not sure covering 2400 range is such a big thing, especially in PvE where people will soon be able to mount up on their skyscale mid-combat and dash across the whole battlefield anyway. On release, it had no recharge and 20e cost, and you still couldn’t spam it unless it was the only skill you were using. I can appreciate how broken that was in competitive modes, though.

One of the key mechanics of revenant is energy management. One way of doing that is by swapping legends, but that isn’t the exclusive playstyle that revenant must always do. One of the selling points of rev is that you can either slot complementary legends and swap between them, or slot legends that fill entirely different roles and camp the one you need in the moment. In fact, this was something that was almost forced on you from the start, since each core legend has a totally different focus; its only through elite specs that you could wholly devote a rev to power damage, condition damage, or healing while still frequently swapping between legends.

The point is, on release revenant was kind of like a heavy-armour thief, with all utility skills having no/low cooldown to compensate for the resource management, like thief with initiative. Over time, the costs of core legend skills have crept up and they’ve had cooldowns extended or added, while elite specs have added skills that either allow or encourage you to camp them (either stance of Legendary Alliance can heal 3 times in the time it takes Shiro, Jalis, or Mallyx to heal once, and that’s without switching stance to use both 10s recharge heal skills). All I’m asking is that the core legends be brought more in line with them.

While there has been CDs introduced, a lot of the energy costs relative to those have been tweaked quite precisely to avoid repetitive behaviors while still fitting in like puzzle pieces.

It narrows the options at the cost of keeping cooldowns low, some just can't go without one because it would be really broken. As it stands, Revenant is okay but could be fine tuned way more.

[Manpag.6421]

On 7/31/2023 at 9:08 PM, Ravenwulfe.5360 said:

You can't really say that using Corruption to give us an extra pip is a solid choice either since unless you are going condition specced, it doesn't really help out, never mind giving yourself constant torment.

The irony of that is that it’s better to use that trait on a non-condi build, because you’re using your own condi damage to apply torment to yourself and easily offset it with . So you can take much less damage with no condi investment, but you’ve also then taken a trait line that’s virtually useless aside from that one trait. On the flip side, you significantly reduce your DPS potential if you take it on a condi build, because it competes with Acolyte of Torment for the Adept slot. It’s all a bit of an odd design, it’s like they’re forcing the tank spec and the condi spec together, with Retribution also giving you Resolution which can offset the condition damage you do to yourself.

[Kulvar.1239]

Lowering the costs would also cause ANet to reduce the potency of the abilities. You won't get burstier, you'll only have more buttons to press.

Like Riposting Shadows. Would you turn it into a mere evade and cleanse movement-impairing condition for 15 energy with no other effect?
(no Fury, no stun break, and no endurance gain)

[Sereath.1428]

9 hours ago, Kulvar.1239 said:

Lowering the costs would also cause ANet to reduce the potency of the abilities. You won't get burstier, you'll only have more buttons to press.

Like Riposting Shadows. Would you turn it into a mere evade and cleanse movement-impairing condition for 15 energy with no other effect?
(no Fury, no stun break, and no endurance gain)

Yeah exactly this, you can do some very cool plays right now with current Riposting Shadows if you manage to pool 100% energy while in combat because of an enemy not pressuring you enough, a change of that nature would just squash down the skill ceiling of the class (again), so Id rather not have them touch Revenant at all at this point (specially for competitive), except for overdue bug fixes.

Edited August 5, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Shagie.7612]

revisiting this to say that op is correct about renegade specifically in pvp, amongst its myriad of other weak points. all your energy has to go into damage or you're never gonna kill anything and will die from a lack of sustain, or you spend energy on utility/stunbreaks and... then die or otherwise completely leave the fight anyways from your inability to recover

don't think it's particularly a problem on vindi, herald or even core but any renegade build in spvp (salvation, retribution, or condi), it's rough

been gettin harder and harder to justify playing as EoD's gone on

[spayced.2016]

Sorry I disagree. I like having a class with more powerful abilities where I choose them instead of mash them. 

If you think some abilities are weaker or not worth it, thats a separate balance issue.