Unrelenting Assault vs Smoke Assault

[Susi Musi.2964]

Why does smoke assault (Soulbeast smokescale merged skill) have 750 range but unrelenting assault  only 450? These two skills basically do the same thing. Mostly interested from the PvP point of view. Thanks!

Edited August 12, 2023 by Susi Musi.2964
Clarification

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Unrelenting does more damage, but that's the only difference. But then again, Rev biggest hinderance is range.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Not only does it have a longer range, but it also has no cast time (which is the bigger pain point imo). The cast time on Unrelenting Assault is actually the cause of most of the major bugs with the skill and is the reason Smoke Assault doesn't suffer from the same issues that UA does

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

Been a problem I am noting that the evasion is not even triggering a lot lately with Unrelenting as well. I will get knocked out of it multiple times with a stun or knock attack lately when I should be auto evading or still taking damage.

[Buran.3796]

I don't see the problem given that:

A) At the moment, Rev power builds are mostly mele, and 450 range is way more than you get from most of your attacks unless we are talking about gap closers. This is different from Ranger, which can actually fight at range with power builds.

B) UA is a weak skill outside single target fights. Unless you're trying to deal damage while avoinding damage, is not that relevant.

C) I'm very sceptic about current Rev builds in PvP, but specially about the ones which use swords. This is a hot take but imo sb + staff Renegade > gs + staff Vindicator > mace + axe condi Herald > power Herald with swords and staff (and none of them are meta). So is not like adding range to the least performative weapon kit in the dead niche game mode as is PvP places high in the list of problems to fix in Rev.

 

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

6 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

I don't see the problem given that:

A) At the moment, Rev power builds are mostly mele, and 450 range is way more than you get from most of your attacks unless we are talking about gap closers. This is different from Ranger, which can actually fight at range with power builds.

B) UA is a weak skill outside single target fights. Unless you're trying to deal damage while avoinding damage, is not that relevant.

C) I'm very sceptic about current Rev builds in PvP, but specially about the ones which use swords. This is a hot take but imo sb + staff Renegade > gs + staff Vindicator > mace + axe condi Herald > power Herald with swords and staff (and none of them are meta). So is not like adding range to the least performative weapon kit in the dead niche game mode as is PvP places high in the list of problems to fix in Rev.

 

Most of this was just one bad take, never mind you do know they have the ability to set skills for different game modes right? This argument "for PvP" is getting silly and just a straw man at this point. Never mind ignoring the glaring bugs with the power or egregious cast time.

[Shagie.7612]

13 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

This is a hot take but imo sb + staff Renegade > gs + staff Vindicator > mace + axe condi Herald > power Herald with swords and staff (and none of them are meta).

in what world is any renegade build better than either vindicator or herald rn lol
doubly so in like a week when the expac releases and sb is available to the whole class

that sure is a hot take

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Well, Smoke Assault was imported directly from Smokescale, and I believe that skill has always been instant. It was designed for a pet, all of which notoriously have horrible tracking, and I don't even know if they have the tech to give pet skills that are castsble while moving. I imagine they put a cast time on Unrelenting Assault to give it more counterplay since it was designed around a player using it.

Personally, I've been wishing Soulbeast's (not Smokescale's) Smoke Assault be given a cast time for years now because I think it is important to the skill design's counterplay, though it is true that the cast time is likely the primary reason that UA has so many bugs. I've wondered if the bugs could be remedied by increasing the internal skill range immediately upon casting the skill, so it still requires that range check to begin the cast, but won't break if the range is broken mid-windup.

[Ravenwulfe.5360]

11 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Well, Smoke Assault was imported directly from Smokescale, and I believe that skill has always been instant. It was designed for a pet, all of which notoriously have horrible tracking, and I don't even know if they have the tech to give pet skills that are castsble while moving. I imagine they put a cast time on Unrelenting Assault to give it more counterplay since it was designed around a player using it.

Personally, I've been wishing Soulbeast's (not Smokescale's) Smoke Assault be given a cast time for years now because I think it is important to the skill design's counterplay, though it is true that the cast time is likely the primary reason that UA has so many bugs. I've wondered if the bugs could be remedied by increasing the internal skill range immediately upon casting the skill, so it still requires that range check to begin the cast, but won't break if the range is broken mid-windup.

That's interesting view but conjecture at best. They could have tweaked it for player use so I don't buy the idea that "it was just too hard" is the reason why. A lot of revenant skills are being overshadowed lately due to cost, weird cast times, or reduced ranges versus like powers in other sets that do far better.

[Buran.3796]

On 8/14/2023 at 4:06 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

in what world is any renegade build better than either vindicator or herald rn lol
doubly so in like a week when the expac releases and sb is available to the whole class

that sure is a hot take

   In WvW roaming Renegade absolutely wrecks both. Neither Herald or Vindicator have successful condi/hybrid builds (with the Herald being particulary vulnerable to Renegade since its chronic lack of answers vs conditions and very bad mobility in the condi builds) so they can't take any advantage of celestial stats. And a celestial Renebow has over 3k armor and so much sustain that will outheal them while poking and doing hybrid damage at any range. And is not only the advantage in 1 vs 1: whenever a n vs n skirmish emerges, Rene still has the advantage of being able to pressure at range, whereas Herald/Vindi do way less damage at range and are forced to mele (and eat fear from unblockable wells and other fun stuff... ). 

   But the post is about PvP, so let's take a look over that:

   In PvP Renegade loses the stat advantage due no cel amulet, so we run zerk amulet (same as Herald and Vindi). Still Rene does both power and condi damage, and Herald is still weak against the later. And Vindi, guess what, the Alliance legend has a 30 second cooldowns in the heals (small heals that were designed to be used oftenly, as in WvW and PvE where the cd remains in 10 seconds). In the last two months I've only played 3 builds in the seasonal  Ranked 3 v 3 and Conquest: Renebow, Vindicator and Firebrand, and while none of them are good enogh to be meta (FB is top bottom tier, tbh) Rene is just better because has stronger hard cc tools and can do damage at any range, whereas the Vindicator has a strong AoE damage punished by how brittle is in terms of sustain (I need to run Shiro + Jalis with Vindi, to me Alliance is just too weak in PvP) and Herald is better at single target +1, but lacks stability, is easily disrupted and every meta build at the moment is either stronger as +1 (better cc + burst, bursting at range, bursting from stealth, corrupting while bursting, etc. ) or a stronger bruiser with much more sustain. I would also argue that if you solo q (as me) running a subpar +1 as Herald won't work well.

   That's my point, I'm nobody, I'm just work from gold II to III along the seaons so I'm sure here's much better players here with way higher ranks and different opinions (which I'm eager to read) but you can't barely see any Rev at MATs and they don't do much, so I don't known the arguments to claim Herald or Vindi are better at PvP. Lately I've noticed and increment in hate talk about how "annoying" is my build (sure using The Dreamer as sb and Chickenado as a finisher hleps to increase the psychological damage  😄) which I found flattering...

Edited August 15, 2023 by Buran.3796

[Ulysses.2058]

Easily the flashiest Rev weapon skill. I wouldn't mind more range, but it could definitely use a damage increase in PvE.