Math comparing old and new dailys

[Tev.8345]

7 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

I have been meaning to respond to this thread all day to thank you for sharing this outline! I really appreciate you taking your time to create this and pass it on to the rest of the community.

The post is nice effort, but it is missing a lot of rewards from the old system AND it assumes that you actually do all of the stuff in the new system (which you almost never did in old dailies). So the final evaluation is unfairly favoring new system A LOT. I hope you don't make any conclusions based on it.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Tev.8345

[Luthan.5236]

The thing is: The old dailies were 12 ... and a lot of crap from WvW I never do + 1 tournament daily that I never do ... in PvP. Tournament I have now in the weekly and I can omit the WvW totally. Not encountered any daily that I would not do and 4 now are faster than previously. (The 1 of them is only the login actually.) Much less.

The weekly gives more time. Should not be a big deal to completey everything. Unless you select all 3 game modes to offer you the tasks - then limiting yourself to only do the PvE ones. (Then just select only PvE!)

[Tachenon.5270]

If the bottom line doesn't add up to FUN, to hell with the math. And it doesn't. For me. YMMV.

[Pifil.5193]

7 hours ago, idpersona.3810 said:

The problem is that those numbers represent the top end of what's possible, with unlimited time to play. Most of us aren't going to end up anywhere near that at the end of the quarter. 

Exactly, a lot of people don't have time to do much more than log in during the week and maybe sneak a couple of hours in here and there, and those players will definitely lose out.

The players with lots of time will do better, of course, which is great for them.

[Strixxe.2019]

On 8/23/2023 at 12:07 PM, sos.6510 said:

Y'all a quick to cry about the loss of the daily login before you even try to compare it, so here it is.

A "season" is 11 weeks/77 days. We will be comparing it to 77 old dailies and 2 full login track+21 days (28+28+21 days)

- Old system :
154 gold 
231 spirit shards
54 mystic coins
95 laurels
36 tome of knowledge
6 transmutation charge
3 celebration booster
4 black lion rng item
231 chests corresponding to the daily you did (reward track potion/mats you collected, etc)

Adding in the final login chest, depending on your choice
If you take laurels, it's bumped to 135
If you take tomes, it's bumped to 48
If you take ascended stuff, 2 vision crystal and 2 to 4 random ascended mats
If you take legendary stuff, 16 obsidian shards and 14 mystic clover

 

- New system :
Without spending astral acclaim
77 gold
110 laurels
11 tome of knowledge
11 celebration booster
And a total of 15095 14825 astral acclaim (77 x 65 + 11 x 770 + 1350) [Edited math mistake]

Now with said astral acclaims, let's start with the choices that correspond to the old daily (aa is short for astral acclaim here)
1500 aa for 150 laurels, totaling 260 laurels. That is 165 more, 125 if you took the laurel chest on the old daily login
1200 aa for 20 mystic clover. That is 6 more (if you took the leg chest)
1000 aa for 20 obsidian shards. That is 4 more (if you took the leg chest)
600 aa for 4 vision crystal. That is 2 more (if you took the ascended chest)
540 aa for 60 mystic coins. That is 6 more
540 aa for 90 golds, totaling 167. That is 13 more
280 aa for 35 tome of knowledge, totaling 46. That is 10 more, 2 less if you took the tome chest
240 aa for 30 transmutation charges. That is 24 more
There are no spirit shards, random ascended mat, or rewards track potions/mats you collected. Ascended mats are offset by the fact you can buy full ascended piece

And with that we're still left with 8925 aa to spend. If you don't want the rest, congrats, you can grab either 223 T5 mats bag, or 297 additional golds.
But let's look at the rest.

Starting with skins, 2525 aa total cost (I'm not sure if the weapon is a one time or infinite buying so i'm gonna go with one time for now)
250 for the emote, 1125 for the 3 sanctified armors, 150 for the weaon, 1000 for the griffon
We still have 6400 so let's keep going

1000 for the legendary kit (that is stupidly worth considering it gives you a precursor, it's gift, and a choice of gift of power or magic)
2000 for both essence of gold (do not pick it. It's useless, period. But let's count it for now as it was technically a thing in the old daily login)
1350 for all the archetype slots augment (these would cost 1100 gems)
1800 for all the ascended pieces (3 armor and a weapon)
 

Total 6250, we still have 150, and the things left are
950 aa for the 10 revive orbs
420 aa for the 12 amelioration extractor (both these and the revive orbs technically offset the 4 black lion rng box, not convinced)
340 aa for the 30 heavy crafting bags
300 aa for the 15 masteries chest

- Closing

This is not a white knighting post, a lot of the critics are quite valid, I wouldn't mind seeing more choice in the dailies or a reroll button, and I also will greatly miss the reward track potions.

But stop for a moment and realize that the baseline system is 100% more rewarding (unless you're a pvp only player than yeah the reward track loss is sad)
This is not a system that shipped and immediatly is in need of a whole rework.
All we'd need would be more dailies to have options (2 would be a good start), reward track potion in the aa shop, and maybe sync dailies between players so we can play together.

Have you calculated in gold find bonus we used to get every month? 

[Tev.8345]

14 minutes ago, KrivukasLT.3507 said:

Have you calculated in gold find bonus we used to get every month? 

It did not really do anything. Of course you might farm a lot of mobs which actually drop some silvers frequently, but that's rare.

Napkin math time:

How much gold is usually dropped by mobs, 10c per 10 mobs? So 2% extra (even assuming it works as expected and not something silly like magic find) would give you extra 2c per 100 mobs? Assuming say avg 200 mobs killed per day (don't pretend you don't like those metas) you get 4c extra per day, so some 16s PER YEAR. Like sure, it can add up over time, you can kill way more mobs, which drop more gold, but overall for avg player it was reward with value of random BL item.

Don't buy that crap for 1000 AA kids.

 

EDIT: just saying - I liked that reward, as another freebie from login rewards. Number go up and all. But it is another victim of giving players choice, it is just too low value for me to even consider spending more than ~10 AA on it, let alone 1000.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Tev.8345

[De Dominator.9834]

All in all I think the new rewards are great. 

I am unnecessarily bothered by the Essences of Gold though, yes they are a super minor and very unimpactful thing (the Gold Find they give having little to no actual impact) but for some reason it just really bothers me that it has gone from 2% a month in the old log in rewards to now 2% every (roughly) three months?

Just why? Seems so unnecessary a change especially considering this is the only way to gain the item? Why not just have 6 "Lesser Essences of Gold" in the store so you could still theoretically gain the same amount of it as in the old system? Why even introduce "Lesser Essences of Gold" in the first place? Why not just have 3 normal ones? Or if they wanted to nerf its acquisition from some unknown reason why not just make it 2 regular essences instead of lesser ones so its 4% instead of 2%?

This is ultimately a super minor nitpick and shouldnt bother me nearly as much as it does, but it just makes zero sense to me.

[De Dominator.9834]

31 minutes ago, KrivukasLT.3507 said:

Have you calculated in gold find bonus we used to get every month? 

Used to be you earnt 2% Gold Find bonus every 28 days. Now its 2% every (roughly) 3 months.
Like others have pointed out the stat has very little impact and dosnt really matter, but the change makes no sense to me. If its a really minor stat why nerf its acquisition so drastically?

[PixelHero.5849]

26 minutes ago, Tev.8345 said:

It did not really do anything. Of course you might farm a lot of mobs which actually drop some silvers frequently, but that's rare.

Napkin math time:

How much gold is usually dropped by mobs, 10c per 10 mobs? So 2% extra (even assuming it works as expected and not something silly like magic find) would give you extra 2c per 100 mobs? Assuming say avg 200 mobs killed per day (don't pretend you don't like those metas) you get 4c extra per day, so some 16s PER YEAR. Like sure, it can add up over time, you can kill way more mobs, which drop more gold, but overall for avg player it was reward with value of random BL item.

Don't buy that crap for 1000 AA kids.

 

EDIT: just saying - I liked that reward, as another freebie from login rewards. Number go up and all. But it is another victim of giving players choice, it is just too low value for me to even consider spending more than ~10 AA on it, let alone 1000.

And it was in the calculation:

 

Quote

2000 for both essence of gold (do not pick it. It's useless, period. But let's count it for now as it was technically a thing in the old daily login)

 

It would be nice if it did a bit more than it does, but genuinely, if you logged in every day since release (let's pretend that the just replaced daily log in rewards existed the entire 11 years), that's 2% * 12 months * 11 years = +264%.   I think most gold dropping monsters ~ lvl 80 drop 80 copper base, so they'd be dropping 2s 11c.  After 11 years of not missing a login.  Inflation in the game has been waaaaaaaaaaaaay more than +264%.  2 gold at release was a lot, I seem to recall 100 gems costing around that.

 

using https://www.gw2tp.com/gems

 

we can use gems as a rough approximation of the value of gold.  It's the closest we have to a standard that I can think of.  That graph goes back to 2014, well after the 2012 release, but even so we can see that in 2014 (9 years ago), 100 gems was  4g,76s,84c.  Today (well, just before API cut off for the expansion), it is 35g92s92c, or an increase of 753%.  That means the value of money dropped from monsters, even though you didn't miss a single day of logging in, is ~500% LESS than it was 2 years after release.  And as time goes on, the value of gold dropped from monsters matters less, and less, and less.  At release, it was at least viable to consider farming monsters for coin and material drops.  Now?  We don't even think about it.

 

At best, the +2% a month can help stem the bleeding, but it never, ever, ever grows to a high enough level that it turns into your favor, especially now that you can opt into spending that acclaim on something else.

Edited August 24, 2023 by PixelHero.5849

[Invisible Pete.7290]

Excellent math!

However, the new system math is only effective if a player can actually accomplish ALL FOUR of the given objectives.

We no longer have the ability to play as we want by being allowed to choose objectives.

The old system allowed for more success by allowing players to choose.

[ArchonWing.9480]

10 hours ago, idpersona.3810 said:

The problem is that those numbers represent the top end of what's possible, with unlimited time to play. Most of us aren't going to end up anywhere near that at the end of the quarter. 

Yea I think I'll be more interested in the gold/hour stats here, rather than the maximum, as we are not bots. I am sure there are those that only care about the total rewards, but that's not everyone. And certainly everyone has different ability levels, and with the rng nature of the tasks may be a certain factor as well.

Granted, I've already taken all the gold bags and the value of the account bound stuff is going to be heavily disputed.

Edited August 24, 2023 by ArchonWing.9480

[Urud.4925]

The rewards are nice because you can choose what to claim. For example I have 2300 laurels and 1849 trasmutation charges, and I have nothing to do with more of them. Same goes for Black Lion salvage kits, Merchant Expresses and all of those random things we received from daily rewards. So if I can choose to "buy" something else instead, I appreciated it.

The problem, as many others said, also in other threads, is that this increased flexibility to choose your reward, came with a less flexibility to choose how to play the game. Before it was mostly useless stuff (apart from mystic coins and clovers) but it was given for doing basically nothing (for right or wrong that it might be). Now we have to complete mandatory quests that make the game strict. And I've never heard an MMO player saying that mandatory dailies are fun.

[Gibson.4036]

As people are rightly pointing out, comparing max rewards under the old system to max rewards under this system is only one way of looking at this.

As someone who plays casually, two or three times a week for three hours or so a session, I didn't max the login, nor daily completionist rewards every month. Some sessions I would do DC, some not, some twice because I'd log in before reset and log out after.

So figure 4-6 logins a week, 2-6 DCs. Over 11 weeks, which I understand is one Wizard's Vault cycle, I might complete the old daily login cycle twice for 32 mystic coins and 14 mystic clovers and about 88 gold from DC. I know I was getting crafting materials, vision crystals, tomes and luck, but I'll focus on the things that really mattered to me for the moment.

In a full cycle of Wizard's Vault, it looks like I should fairly easily get 60 mystic coins, 20 mystic clovers, and 90 gold just by doing 10 point dailies and 40 point weeklies here and there without even necessarily getting daily completionist and whatever getting all 6 weeklies is called. That's 2,280 AA. Divided by 11 weeks is an average of 207/week. That means two 10 point dailies each "login" (before and after reset) and 3 weeklies/week at 40 AA a piece. I don't have to get daily completionist ever and only have to cherry pick a few weeklies to get almost twice as many mystic coins, a little more gold, and almost 50% more clovers than before.

Unless I've very much confused, Wizard's Vault looks like a better deal for me, even with no choice in the dailies. Because I don't have to do them all to earn better rewards, I do have choice baked in.

______________________________________

Math version

2-3 sessions/wk straddling reset = Avg. 5 "logins"/wk = Approx 2 old daily tracks over 11 weeks; 2 old daily tracks + Approx 44 Daily completionists = 32 MCoins, 14 MClovers, 88Gold

5 AA* 5 Logins/wk + 10 AA *10 individual dailies/wk +40 AA* 3 weeklies/wk * 11 weeks = 2,695 AA which is more than enough for 60MCoins, 20 MClovers, 90Gold

______________________________________

TL;DR Wizard's Vault seems to reward better for a casual, play 2-3 times a week over reset, player like me.

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Gibson.4036

[idpersona.3810]

10 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

As people are rightly pointing out, comparing max rewards under the old system to max rewards under this system is only one way of looking at this.

As someone who plays casually, two or three times a week for three hours or so a session, I didn't max the login, nor daily completionist rewards every month. Some sessions I would do DC, some not, some twice because I'd log in before reset and log out after.

So figure 4-6 logins a week, 2-6 DCs. Over 11 weeks, which I understand is one Wizard's Vault cycle, I might complete the old daily login cycle twice for 32 mystic coins and 14 mystic clovers and about 88 gold from DC. I know I was getting crafting materials, vision crystals, tomes and luck, but I'll focus on the things that really mattered to me for the moment.

In a full cycle of Wizard's Vault, it looks like I should fairly easily get 60 mystic coins, 20 mystic clovers, and 90 gold just by doing 10 point dailies and 40 point weeklies here and there without even necessarily getting daily completionist and whatever getting all 6 weeklies is called. That's 2,280 AA. Divided by 11 weeks is an average of 207/week. That means two 10 point dailies each "login" (before and after reset) and 3 weeklies/week at 40 AA a piece. I don't have to get daily completionist ever and only have to cherry pick a few weeklies to get almost twice as many mystic coins, a little more gold, and almost 50% more clovers than before.

Unless I've very much confused, Wizard's Vault looks like a better deal for me, even with no choice in the dailies. Because I don't have to do them all to earn better rewards, I do have choice baked in.

______________________________________

Math version

2-3 sessions/wk straddling reset = Avg. 5 "logins"/wk = Approx 2 old daily tracks over 11 weeks; 2 old daily tracks + Approx 44 Daily completionists = 32 MCoins, 14 MClovers, 88Gold

5 AA* 5 Logins/wk + 10 AA *10 individual dailies/wk +40 AA* 3 weeklies/wk * 11 weeks = 2,695 AA which is more than enough for 60MCoins, 20 MClovers, 90Gold

______________________________________

TL;DR Wizard's Vault seems to reward better for a casual, play 2-3 times a week over reset, player like me.

 

Thank you for all of that. Assuming the math is correct (I'm not going to check), this math is much more helpful overall.

Like I've said previously, the Vault has a lot of potential. I think it needs some serious tweaks though before it can be considered "good" imo. And opinions are obviously subjective. I think we just need more options for tasks. And have the rewards show up automatically. There is no reason to have to keep going into the vault to click stuff. Just have the chests show up on the side like they used to when complete.

[Rose Solane.1027]

12 hours ago, Rubi Bayer.8493 said:

I have been meaning to respond to this thread all day to thank you for sharing this outline! I really appreciate you taking your time to create this and pass it on to the rest of the community.

I hope you read the rest of the posts in this thread too. As much as I appreciate the math it is representing the optimum result of the new system. sos did mention some negatives of the new system, as did several other posts. It seems like some improvements are needed to make the new system a real upgrade to the old system for most players. It is hard to say after only a few days, but it looks like the new system will be more rewarding for me, but not necessarily more enjoyable. That said I see the benefits of the new system for me, I hope that with a few improvements the new system will also be more beneficial for most of my fellow guild members.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Rose Solane.1027
added my general approval for the system

[Sylvyn.4750]

32 minutes ago, idpersona.3810 said:

There is no reason to have to keep going into the vault to click stuff. Just have the chests show up on the side like they used to when complete.

Sure there is!  You have to enjoy the "bling" noise it makes when you collect a chest...doesn't that make you want to do it all over again just for that sound effect? 😉 

[Gibson.4036]

7 minutes ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

Sure there is!  You have to enjoy the "bling" noise it makes when you collect a chest...doesn't that make you want to do it all over again just for that sound effect? 😉 

 

[idpersona.3810]

34 minutes ago, Sylvyn.4750 said:

Sure there is!  You have to enjoy the "bling" noise it makes when you collect a chest...doesn't that make you want to do it all over again just for that sound effect? 😉 

I usually play with the sound off since I'm in a room with family members I talk to so I don't generally hear the sound effects. 🙂
I also keep getting a connection error notice whenever I go into the Vault and claim rewards.

[Nighthawk.2401]

Just to be clear, the new system is only better if you're making full use of it. The complaint is specifically about the fact that the old system was "front loaded", the bulk of the rewards were just for logging in, so you could keep up with most of them for a minute a day easily instead of needing an hour or two each day to keep up. (And I'm sure some are complaining because the new system practically invalidates alt-accounts as well, since they relied on the front loaded/instant login rewards to become valuable sources of gold and other items over time)

On one hand, I do have a single alt account already, and it feels a bit bad to know that it was a complete waste of money since I've not used it much yet and the daily login rewards are nerfed to the ground for it. But on the other hand, I understand why anet would want to prevent buying-alts from being the most price-efficient way to convert USD to in game gold. I feel mixed about it since in the long run this will likely be a negative drain on my gold profit, but it'll also be more rewarding for my main account at least.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Nighthawk.2401

[Jilora.9524]

It is better reward wise. Sure I'm all for more choices. Like today I am not doing that mini dungeon in echovald and I'm also not doing wkly retrospect runaround. The thing is we also have a choice of what to buy and don't log in 4 times a month to luck or other useless things and can save for what you want. That's the way I look at it I'm not forced to do anything I don't want and missing a day cuz some crap I don't want to do won't kill me.  I am all for more choices but not worried about it. 

[genjonah.1253]

On 8/23/2023 at 4:51 AM, jokke.6239 said:

Yes, I assume the reason there's only 4 missions is so people won't earn to much AA in a day

But they should just have a big list of options and have a cap on how much you can earn in the daily tab each day

Doing this would fix the only issue I have with this system. Sure, it’s annoying that I had bought a second account around halfway between the release of PoF and EoD, for literally the only reason of getting log in rewards/daily crafting, but I still can get some use out of it (crafting obviously unaffected, and still get the just log in astral acclaim), but even though it is a bummer for those reasons personally, this change is overall good for the game (especially if you implement this change)

[idpersona.3810]

Just realized (and so adding this to this thread as well) that we don't get spirit shards anymore from dailies. So we lose out on 90 or so spirit shards a month that isn't made up for anywhere else. I would like to see them added back into the daily completion chest or purchasable from the Wizards Vault. I know some ToK can be bought, but nowhere near the equivalent.

Edited August 25, 2023 by idpersona.3810

[Sjentra.3409]

1 hour ago, idpersona.3810 said:

Just realized (and so adding this to this thread as well) that we don't get spirit shards anymore from dailies. So we lose out on 90 or so spirit shards a month that isn't made up for anywhere else. I would like to see them added back into the daily completion chest or purchasable from the Wizards Vault. I know some ToK can be bought, but nowhere near the equivalent.

Yeah i noticed that as well; i was hoping they maybe were in the weekly chest but i forgot to look before i claimed it and you can't see what was in it after it's been claimed(WTF).
Daily 3 spirit shards and bauble week (before it was gutted when Eod launched) were about the only ways I actually got spirit shards.

No one wants to run around with boosters trying to slay monsters in an empty map hoping for that extra reward xp just to get a few shards. This isn't PoE/D4.

[idpersona.3810]

Mind you, I get that my spirit shard acquisition is off because I'm filling mastery tracks again. But I only got 1 shard since yesterday. The 90 or so a month from dailies was something I came to rely on in my legendary crafting goals.

[sos.6510]

On 8/25/2023 at 6:46 PM, idpersona.3810 said:

Just realized (and so adding this to this thread as well) that we don't get spirit shards anymore from dailies. So we lose out on 90 or so spirit shards a month that isn't made up for anywhere else. I would like to see them added back into the daily completion chest or purchasable from the Wizards Vault. I know some ToK can be bought, but nowhere near the equivalent.

Yep I stated that in the initial post, you basically lose 231 spirit shards over the course of the 77 days

New amount of tome of knowledge also doesn't make up for it in any capacity, so I would also really like to see them back in daily rewards