Yukai.2170 Posted August 23, 2023 Share Posted August 23, 2023 Since launch of guild wars 2, I've mained Thief. It hasn't always been easy or fair, but with determination and countless trials and errors I finally give up.. Arenanet seem to have forgotten what made Thief, the thief. The assassination aspect, the high risk high reward, stealth, shadowstep etc And yet, now every other class does what Thiefs can, only better and stronger. I came back after a break to find out that DE was dead, nerfed to the ground, yet again Though I was excited for the new weapon mastering, only to struggle to make anything fun and viable.. Not to mention that we can't even comfortably use scepters, on other specializations It's just disheartening to want to play thief, only to be outperformed in every aspect by everyone else Even my favourite build D/D DE, while very fun for me, can be incredibly frustrating when the target moves to the edge of a cliff, just so I can yeet myself off it, just to struggle back up to a fully healed up fight again Just needed to let it out, rant over 6 1 4 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrix.4512 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 2 hours ago, Yukai.2170 said: Since launch of guild wars 2, I've mained Thief. It hasn't always been easy or fair, but with determination and countless trials and errors I finally give up.. Arenanet seem to have forgotten what made Thief, the thief. The assassination aspect, the high risk high reward, stealth, shadowstep etc And yet, now every other class does what Thiefs can, only better and stronger. I came back after a break to find out that DE was dead, nerfed to the ground, yet again Though I was excited for the new weapon mastering, only to struggle to make anything fun and viable.. Not to mention that we can't even comfortably use scepters, on other specializations It's just disheartening to want to play thief, only to be outperformed in every aspect by everyone else Even my favourite build D/D DE, while very fun for me, can be incredibly frustrating when the target moves to the edge of a cliff, just so I can yeet myself off it, just to struggle back up to a fully healed up fight again Just needed to let it out, rant over My dear colleague, take a look at the topics around, it's all constant whining: "Remove stealth from thieves/remove damage from thieves/we don't care that they're already at rock bottom, delete this class because it's inconvenient for me to dominate them, they don't stand still, what did I pay you money for?!?!". And you know what? Their whining works. Don't worry, ANet will delete this class soon, I have no doubts. 2 1 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggie.3184 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 26 minutes ago, Antrix.4512 said: My dear colleague, take a look at the topics around, it's all constant whining: "Remove stealth from thieves/remove damage from thieves/we don't care that they're already at rock bottom, delete this class because it's inconvenient for me to dominate them, they don't stand still, what did I pay you money for?!?!". And you know what? Their whining works. Don't worry, ANet will delete this class soon, I have no doubts. It's sad that I still have no place in WvW zergs currently but they could at least make Thief still a Thief and actually fun in PvE and keep nerfs in PvP only. Like what was wrong with 1050 range ricochet pistols in PvE, it was fun. 5 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaif.3518 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 14 hours ago, Yukai.2170 said: The assassination aspect, the high risk high reward, stealth, shadowstep etc I enjoy playing thief in WvW from time to time, but it's certainly not "high risk". It's the opposite - you can disengage any time you want (mesmer is similar, certain other builds on other classes similar). High risk is taking a core necro roaming. If you get dismounted in the wrong spot you're pretty much dead. 4 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrancisN.9276 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, jaif.3518 said: I enjoy playing thief in WvW from time to time, but it's certainly not "high risk". It's the opposite - you can disengage any time you want (mesmer is similar, certain other builds on other classes similar). High risk is taking a core necro roaming. If you get dismounted in the wrong spot you're pretty much dead. Playing as staff power daredevil or D/D condi daredevil has its high risk aspect, since you have to time your dodge right to avoid taking damage to your pathetically low HP. Even if you time it right, the iframe only last around 2/3 of the dodge animation, locking you in vulnerable position if the opponent combos, which they will certainly do because they are not stupid NPC mob sitting around and attacking once every 2-3 sec. Additionally, if you want to disengage, you have to save your resource for running away, which means your dps/cc during the fight does not hold a candle to the opponent - you'll lose the engagement anyway. Edited August 24, 2023 by FrancisN.9276 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 14 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said: It's sad that I still have no place in WvW zergs currently but they could at least make Thief still a Thief and actually fun in PvE and keep nerfs in PvP only. Like what was wrong with 1050 range ricochet pistols in PvE, it was fun. Even if you don't get an invite you can stay ahead of the zerg and play fixer-upper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaif.3518 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 1 hour ago, FrancisN.9276 said: Playing as staff power daredevil or D/D condi daredevil has its high risk aspect, ... Mostly a thief's fate is entirely in his own hands. If he dodges, he lives and there's almost nothing the enemies can do. A well-played staff user will sail through large groups of people. A necro, for comparison, is relying on brute force - DR+Health+STAB. If the enemy overwhelms, they lose. But I do agree with your basic thrust - not all thief/mesmer builds are the same, and some are much harder to play than others (high skill floor). I just didn't want to write a thesis. In the main, though, most thieves do no play "high risk". They take a tuned single-target build and gank whoever they find, running to safety if they make a mistake or start to lose. Quite honestly, it's also not "high reward", as all the setup and work (it is work) to get one kill is not the same as dropping an AoE and getting bags-per-cast. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xoranium.6481 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 I would say the effort vs usefulness is the worst of all classes. Shame really, anet just funnelled thief into exactly what they wanted it not to be.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggie.3184 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 2 hours ago, kash.9213 said: Even if you don't get an invite you can stay ahead of the zerg and play fixer-upper. Too bad my strongest heal, shadowquall, is gated behind a combo finisher bug. Really wanted to have fun in zergs with Scepter Daredevil but the bug is such a handicap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrancisN.9276 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, jaif.3518 said: Mostly a thief's fate is entirely in his own hands. If he dodges, he lives and there's almost nothing the enemies can do. A well-played staff user will sail through large groups of people. If you read through the dodge iframe I mentioned earlier, you would know this is not true: the daredevil spinning jump dodge (whether it's D/D 3, staff 5 or the grandmaster dodge) only has iframe during the first 2/3 of its animation, while the final 1/3 does not, but you are still locked in the animation. This is not the case for vanilla dodge which all other classes use - they are not locked in vulnerable animation. Now, how to counter Daredevil dodge? Easy, just hold down your autoattack or any attack the moment you see DD dodges and you will hit them during DD landing animation and DD cannot do anything about it. This can be done easily in 1v1, and it is even worse with groups of people when their attacks spread all over the dodge frame. Funny, isn't it? Dodging - the main defensive mechanic for DD class (after Invigorating Precision being nerfed to the ground) - is plagued with vulnerable locked animation frame and noone has bothered to fixed that for years. Edited August 24, 2023 by FrancisN.9276 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chips.7968 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 22 hours ago, Yukai.2170 said: Even my favourite build D/D DE, while very fun for me, can be incredibly frustrating when the target moves to the edge of a cliff, just so I can yeet myself off it, just to struggle back up to a fully healed up fight again It lacks full context, so possibly the ol "teaching you to suck eggs" but this instantly stood out as "the issue is the game not my tactics"; you certainly can have a solution to this. Thieves have utilities to address the opponents cliff-edge location issue you briefly mentioned. One will pull them (ammo of 2). One will push them (you said DeadEye, right?). There are ways to mitigate their stability or their aegis as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kash.9213 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Doggie.3184 said: Too bad my strongest heal, shadowquall, is gated behind a combo finisher bug. Really wanted to have fun in zergs with Scepter Daredevil but the bug is such a handicap. That's too bad. I get it if the one thing you wanted to vibe with isn't happening that it can kill the mood. I rarely use shadowsquall on my Specter templates so I forget it's there since it's not much of a factor even when I can use it. If that one thing is keeping you from running with the zergs though I feel like you'll avoid them regardless. I get it though, I have my hold ups on some things and not feeling it being the only reason. Side thoughts: Specter especially is designed really well for moving blob fights and is great for vibing. Sc/p with sw/d and wells all have appropriate range and radius for use of space. Moves like a cat in tandem. DrD should have been the physical movement Elite to vibe with, but Debilitating Arc is the only skill including utilities that actually feels viscerally good to use for me aside from CnD and Flanking Strike+jump dodge or Infiltrators arrow + Dodge or Bound combo. DE with at least a Rifle handles really well in blob fights and has near perfect range and arch (best escape artist if you know which obstacles Death's Retreat can clear) on its movement skills being another cat like build if you're tuned in to the map and body language. Not sure I'd take Drd or DE as healers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaif.3518 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 2 hours ago, FrancisN.9276 said: Funny, isn't it? Dodging - the main defensive mechanic for DD class (after Invigorating Precision being nerfed to the ground) - is plagued with vulnerable locked animation frame and noone has bothered to fixed that for years. I'm not saying they are invulnerable. I'm not saying everything is perfect. I, like many others, play my thief in WvW from time to time, and I'm aware of some of the issues. But it's largely a low-risk, low-reward, high-effort class. You spend most of your time running around looking for the right setup, then hit suddenly when the time is right. You escape if you need to, or get the kill...maybe 2 kills if you're good. It's really the opposite of high-risk, high-reward. On the other thread going on here - I've taken my thief out as a deadeye support class (cantrips and boons), and it's fun in a pug but I doubt it compares to druids & tempests. I would love to see thief builds that would allow them to participate well in zergs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugar Min.5834 Posted August 24, 2023 Share Posted August 24, 2023 20 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said: It's sad that I still have no place in WvW zergs currently but they could at least make Thief still a Thief and actually fun in PvE and keep nerfs in PvP only. Like what was wrong with 1050 range ricochet pistols in PvE, it was fun. We are not allowed to have fun in this game. Only disappointments and frustrations and of course, the never ending nerfs. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doggie.3184 Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, kash.9213 said: That's too bad. I get it if the one thing you wanted to vibe with isn't happening that it can kill the mood. I rarely use shadowsquall on my Specter templates so I forget it's there since it's not much of a factor even when I can use it. Specter doesn't have as much access to Shadowsquall as Daredevil does so ofc you won't be used to using it, it's not good on Specter. Since Daredevil has much more access to Stealth it opens up a fun new playstyle~ at least if it wasn't bugged. It's similar concept to the Celestial Dual Pistol build but with more attack options and team support. It gives you a really nice ranged ability for both support and damage, and you can further support allies with AoE Superspeed-on-stealth with the new Relic at the same time, as well as AoE blinding enemies.... but alas group play does not work well for this setup as long as this combo finisher bug remains. Edited August 25, 2023 by Doggie.3184 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukai.2170 Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 9 hours ago, Chips.7968 said: Thieves have utilities to address the opponents cliff-edge location issue you briefly mentioned. One will pull them (ammo of 2). One will push them (you said DeadEye, right?). There are ways to mitigate their stability or their aegis as well. Thing is though, if you fight something with a defiance bar, you can't easily push or pull it where you want. I like to do HP daily in the jungle, and the three frogs in Verdant Brink are always particularly annoying because they'll teleport to the edge and range DPS until I figure out how to move them, so I don't jump off the cliff with my D/D setup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bq pd.2148 Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 1 hour ago, Yukai.2170 said: I like to do HP daily in the jungle, and the three frogs in Verdant Brink are always particularly annoying because they'll teleport to the edge and range DPS until I figure out how to move them, so I don't jump off the cliff with my D/D setup the 2 small ones should die faster to CnD + BackFacestab even on viper/celestial etc. because the damage buildup from death blossom is very slow and those 2 are quite squishy. the main one teleports sometimes to the side, it will swap weapon and use a spread shot but then come back melee for its stun + weakness, so you could just wait for its return away from the edges to never risk falling off. that being said, i usually switch to power-rifle for this one if i am not already on it as its less hassle and we got those templates for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukai.2170 Posted August 25, 2023 Author Share Posted August 25, 2023 14 minutes ago, bq pd.2148 said: hat being said, i usually switch to power-rifle for this one if i am not already on it as its less hassle and we got those templates for a reason. True, I never thought of it that way. Maybe my mentality of it was wrong, thinking like "One build to rule them all". Thank you for the insight! On the note with death blossom, are runes of the krait still viable for bleed condi build? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishking.8956 Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 (edited) "But it's largely a low-risk, low-reward, high-effort class" lol that used to be the case about 10-20 nerfs ago lol that mobility means next to nothing now. I main Thief a lot in PvP and WvW; I've seen people running S/D daredevil switch to a bow dash, bow 5, dash, bow 5, shadow step; dash and still get caught by guardians, warrior, ranger, mes, and ele's because Anet thought it was a good idea to give the last thing the thief had to every other class, oh and nerf our dmg into the ground so now a warrior hits harder and has our high mobility! Same with guardian mes ele its laughable. not to mention every class can go invis and has shadow step now apparently. I think they will eventually push out the thief by giving what makes this class special to every other class. the only time ive seen this "mobility" give us any advantage is when your using infiltrators strike from behind a wall and u can use objects to help you get a head start or bow 5 to get on ledges. You can still pick on low skilled people who don't know how to handle a thief but this game has been out forever now those people are too few and far between to have any fun in PvP and WvW. You want a high mobility thief play a warrior or guardian you want alot of invis and or condi play a mes or necro, want a sniper thief play a ranger the other classes do these things better then a thief and hit harder from that Anet love Edited August 25, 2023 by irishking.8956 6 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrix.4512 Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 2 hours ago, irishking.8956 said: lol that used to be the case about 10-20 nerfs ago lol that mobility means next to nothing now. I main Thief a lot in PvP and WvW; I've seen people running S/D daredevil switch to a bow dash, bow 5, dash, bow 5, shadow step; dash and still get caught by guardians, warrior, ranger, mes, and ele's because Anet thought it was a good idea to give the last thing the thief had to every other class, oh and nerf our dmg into the ground so now a warrior hits harder and has our high mobility! Same with guardian mes ele its laughable. not to mention every class can go invis and has shadow step now apparently. I think they will eventually push out the thief by giving what makes this class special to every other class. the only time ive seen this "mobility" give us any advantage is when your using infiltrators strike from behind a wall and u can use objects to help you get a head start or bow 5 to get on ledges. You can still pick on low skilled people who don't know how to handle a thief but this game has been out forever now those people are too few and far between to have any fun in PvP and WvW. You want a high mobility thief play a warrior or guardian you want alot of invis and or condi play a mes or necro, want a sniper thief play a ranger the other classes do these things better then a thief and hit harder from that Anet love Fully agreed except necro invis. Does they have it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishking.8956 Posted August 25, 2023 Share Posted August 25, 2023 "you want alot of invis and or condi" and or condi necro can get invis if they are a norn but im sure they have better elite options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagger.2035 Posted August 26, 2023 Share Posted August 26, 2023 If they want to improve the quality of life of thieves in large scale WvW combat they just need to make scepter skill 2 a low cost AOE. It would be nice to have a decent ranged option which isn't susceptible to projectile hate. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukai.2170 Posted August 26, 2023 Author Share Posted August 26, 2023 On 8/25/2023 at 3:29 PM, irishking.8956 said: "But it's largely a low-risk, low-reward, high-effort class" lol that used to be the case about 10-20 nerfs ago lol that mobility means next to nothing now. I main Thief a lot in PvP and WvW; I've seen people running S/D daredevil switch to a bow dash, bow 5, dash, bow 5, shadow step; dash and still get caught by guardians, warrior, ranger, mes, and ele's because Anet thought it was a good idea to give the last thing the thief had to every other class, oh and nerf our dmg into the ground so now a warrior hits harder and has our high mobility! Same with guardian mes ele its laughable. not to mention every class can go invis and has shadow step now apparently. I think they will eventually push out the thief by giving what makes this class special to every other class. the only time ive seen this "mobility" give us any advantage is when your using infiltrators strike from behind a wall and u can use objects to help you get a head start or bow 5 to get on ledges. You can still pick on low skilled people who don't know how to handle a thief but this game has been out forever now those people are too few and far between to have any fun in PvP and WvW. You want a high mobility thief play a warrior or guardian you want alot of invis and or condi play a mes or necro, want a sniper thief play a ranger the other classes do these things better then a thief and hit harder from that Anet love This is exactly what it feels like. Not to mention that dual wield skills are a key thing for Thiefs, they then don't give us any off-hand weapons, eventhough it's been requested forever.. Since I heard of HoT back in the days, I've always hoped for an off-hand sword. Anet will definitely succeed in killing off Thiefs, because they simply hate us 💔 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainbow Dragon.7268 Posted August 28, 2023 Share Posted August 28, 2023 and here i am still playing pistol pistol like they never removed ricochet /sarcasm jokes aside i do still use it XD p/p + d/d daredevil and deadeye i just change last trait line whenever i feel like it viability be damned i do normal modes fine i never was one for cm. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidbuu.4071 Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 On 8/23/2023 at 6:07 PM, Antrix.4512 said: My dear colleague, take a look at the topics around, it's all constant whining: "Remove stealth from thieves/remove damage from thieves/we don't care that they're already at rock bottom, delete this class because it's inconvenient for me to dominate them, they don't stand still, what did I pay you money for?!?!". And you know what? Their whining works. Don't worry, ANet will delete this class soon, I have no doubts. The sad part is that the loudest" competent" content creators either shun thief, dog them out on their streams/ videos or Make content videos of them being destroyed by thieves because of their lack of skill set and then saying they're busted in all game modes. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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