How the new daily system in Wizards Vault reduced my enjoyment of GW2 [Merged]

[CoyrmGreybeard.1746]

First, this isn't a ragequit, GW2 is still worth playing, but the changes significantly reduced my enjoyment and the devs should know why. I'm a software developer with decades of experience and I know the value of well reasoned customer feedback. Here's mine to help a game I love.

First, the new system has less choice. In the old system I could log on, and have a dozen things to choose from. I might not choose WvW as often as PvE, but I regularly did, and often ended up playing for a lot longer than I'd intended. The new system I have to pre-register for my "mode", and if I include one I play less frequently it comes at the expense of choices in a mode I'm more likely to play. So you penalize your players for keeping an open mind and trying new stuff, stuff they might discover they enjoy and give them another reason to log on.

Second, I have purchased HoT, PoF, and EoD for myself and my entire family, and we play together. I also encourage friends to join, and help them to get established. In the old system we all got the same dailies and could do them together, in the new system we're getting different objectives in areas we both own and both have completed events in. I get how you wouldn't give an event in an expansion a player doesn't own, but if we own the same expansion give us both the same objective in it. If we can't do dailies together, there is less incentive to log on as a group. Research shows that today people log into games to play with people they know, why would you introduce a change that makes it harder to play with your friends?

Third but related to the second, why exclude new players from the dailies? People without a level 80 character don't have access to dailies under the new system, while the old system gave them under-80 alternatives. It was a much better design. Why lock out new players, they are exactly who you should be giving the most encouragement to!

Fourth, and also related to the second, don't give me a daily I cannot access. The old system was really good about offering things that might be difficult (i.e. many of the jumping puzzles) but at least I could get there. Yesterday I go an objective in an are you had to complete a collection to get into. I exited without doing my dailies. That's just frustrating.

Fifth, the point system is confusing. I like the flexibility to choose more than just 2 gold, and I like that I don't get nothing if I complete 2 of the 3 dailies, but the old system gave strong and immediate reinforcement and did give you smaller rewards for each step. But the new system is at best poorly explained. Even after going to the wiki and reading the article, I feel a bit unsure about the new system. Do seasons reset my points? Do points expire? Are "legacy rewards" really going to stick around? Are the prices going to stay the same of go up after the honeymoon?

Sixth, the new system feels like it rewards a lot less. The daily login gave nice stuff every week, just for logging in, and there was incentive to do more once you did log in. I haven't done the math, but it feels like the reward for just logging in is much less than the old rewards for just logging in every day. Again, I haven't done the math, but it feels like the reward for doing 3 dailies every day for a month is also a lot less. If I took my reward in gold for doing a login and 3 tasks on the list every day for 3 months, in the old system I'd have 180 gold, 60 mystic coins, 100 laurels, 6000 luck, a dozen gem store items, a dozen transmutation charges, 3 celebration boosters, 3 chests of loyalty, 6% gold find, and more. What would I have in the new one? Is it even close?

And the proof is in the pudding. In the last few years I've missed only a couple dozen days of doing dailies, mostly because of vacations or computer problems. But I haven't finished my dailies even once since the expansion came live. I still like the game, and I still feel like logging in, but the desire to log in, and the sense that I'm missing something easy if I skip, is significantly reduced, and that can't be good for the game overall.

I'd love to see an official response to this or to some of the similar posts I've seen, in many games I play or have played the feeling is the devs (or at least the decision makers) just don't care what the players think, and I'd love to see evidence to the contrary here.

Thanks for your time!

 

[illuminati.8453]

They are listening, but it is week 1 so it's going to take just a little bit of time to get sorted out. 🙂

You make good points, many of which I agree with.  I'm confident they will put friends and family back playing together as a priority.  

The value of the rewards being less is debatable.  I, for instance, got extreme value from the old login system, but I'm adjusting to the new one and don't have an issue with it.  If I'm being honest, the old system actually encouraged me to play less because it was so rewarding on its own.  I've done more in-game stuff besides metas because of these changes than I've done in ages. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by illuminati.8453

[Wheezy.2846]

Agree on points 1-4 for sure.

Point 5 I... Get people could be, but I didn't have any issues on clarification. I also read all the posts and patch notes and such.

Point 6 I hard disagree with. It feels less rewarding to be able to buy a mount skin, armor and weapon skins, a few black lion utility items, and the ability to get the materials we got before? I think you'd need to look at totals again and think of everything you can buy, including liquid gold, laurels on top of the weekly chests etc.

[idpersona.3810]

1 hour ago, CoyrmGreybeard.1746 said:

Sixth, the new system feels like it rewards a lot less. The daily login gave nice stuff every week, just for logging in, and there was incentive to do more once you did log in. I haven't done the math, but it feels like the reward for just logging in is much less than the old rewards for just logging in every day. Again, I haven't done the math, but it feels like the reward for doing 3 dailies every day for a month is also a lot less. If I took my reward in gold for doing a login and 3 tasks on the list every day for 3 months, in the old system I'd have 180 gold, 60 mystic coins, 100 laurels, 6000 luck, a dozen gem store items, a dozen transmutation charges, 3 celebration boosters, 3 chests of loyalty, 6% gold find, and more. What would I have in the new one? Is it even close?

 

So there's another thread that goes over the numbers. Basically if you play full time and do everything you come out way ahead. If you only complete the dailies and weeklies half the time then it can be debatable. But any less than that and you're probably losing out. All of this is aside from the time put in though. Logging in and doing dailies used to be pretty quick. Now, depending on what tasks are assigned to you (since you don't really choose), it could take quite a bit longer. So there is that to consider.

Agreed on the other points though.

[Radbod.9736]

On your Third point, I maybe be missing what you mean, but I don't have any 80s, and I had dailies I could do on lvl12 Warrior.

[Linken.6345]

24 minutes ago, theWitlessone.9635 said:

On your Third point, I maybe be missing what you mean, but I don't have any 80s, and I had dailies I could do on lvl12 Warrior.

You should not be able to see the wizard vault dailies before opening it up with a lvl 80 character.

Then all characters can do them on your account I use my weekly keyrunners for hearts for example.

[Kaliwenda.3428]

I have finally been able to do the dailies the last two days and I feel like the people who designed them (the PvE ones, that's the only ones I've got selected) don't really understand the community socialization aspect of the old daily system.  Maybe I'll see it more as the days go on depending on what comes up, but for now it feels kindof sad for me.

[CoyrmGreybeard.1746]

1 hour ago, Wheezy.2846 said:

Point 6 I hard disagree with. It feels less rewarding to be able to buy a mount skin, armor and weapon skins, a few black lion utility items, and the ability to get the materials we got before? I think you'd need to look at totals again and think of everything you can buy, including liquid gold, laurels on top of the weekly chests etc.

As you suggested I took another look, and it's worse than I thought. I regularly do (well, did) login plus 3 dailies every day, plus a story chapter or collection step most days. So I looked at the rewards I got under the old system for 28 days of that, and looked at how many days of the same behavior it would take under the new system to get the same rewards. For ease of comparison I chose the Clovers and Obsidian as the Chest of Loyalty reward because those are typical for me. The full numbers are below, but in summary after 28 days in the old system I'd be a celebration booster, 4 gem store items, and a piece of exotic gear ahead of where I'd be after 136 days in the new system. The old system is more than 4.8 *TIMES* more rewarding than the new system. I guess if I used my gold to buy skins on the TP it might be more favorable to the new system, but apples to apples the new system is 20% as rewarding as the old.

28 days with 3 dailies old system (assumes Obsidian and Clovers from Loyalty)
item	qty	Cost per new	Running total	Days new	Notes
Mystic coins	20	9	180	5.142857143
Laurels	35	10	530	15.14285714
Luck	2000	0.12	770	22
Tomes of knowledge	10	8	850	24.28571429
Transmutation charges	3	8	874	24.97142857
Bag of Craft Mats	1	32	906	25.88571429	A Large Crafing Bag costs 8 and is worth 1/4 what an old Bag of Crafting Materials was worth
Bag more Craft Mats	1	40	946	27.02857143	LCB = 1/5 BMCM
Chest of Loyalty Clover	7	60	1366	39.02857143
Chest of Loyalty Obsidian	8	50	1766	50.45714286
Chest Loyalty gold find %	2	1000	3766	107.6
Gold coins	56	18	4774	136.4	18 is the average of 6 and 30, needed to sustain over a season
Celebration booster	1				not available
Gem store items	4				not available
1 exotic equipment	1				not available

[Mistwraithe.3106]

I think you are missing weekly rewards in your calculations? They add a lot.

[Mistwraithe.3106]

I think you are also missing the 30 AA chest for doing your dailies? Rewards are a lot higher than you calculations.

btw I agree on all your other points. Earning dailies, doing them with friends and family, all much worse.

[Wheezy.2846]

8 minutes ago, CoyrmGreybeard.1746 said:

As you suggested I took another look, and it's worse than I thought. I regularly do (well, did) login plus 3 dailies every day, plus a story chapter or collection step most days. So I looked at the rewards I got under the old system for 28 days of that, and looked at how many days of the same behavior it would take under the new system to get the same rewards. For ease of comparison I chose the Clovers and Obsidian as the Chest of Loyalty reward because those are typical for me. The full numbers are below, but in summary after 28 days in the old system I'd be a celebration booster, 4 gem store items, and a piece of exotic gear ahead of where I'd be after 136 days in the new system. The old system is more than 4.8 *TIMES* more rewarding than the new system. I guess if I used my gold to buy skins on the TP it might be more favorable to the new system, but apples to apples the new system is 20% as rewarding as the old.

 

28 days with 3 dailies old system (assumes Obsidian and Clovers from Loyalty)
item	qty	Cost per new	Running total	Days new	Notes
Mystic coins	20	9	180	5.142857143
Laurels	35	10	530	15.14285714
Luck	2000	0.12	770	22
Tomes of knowledge	10	8	850	24.28571429
Transmutation charges	3	8	874	24.97142857
Bag of Craft Mats	1	32	906	25.88571429	A Large Crafing Bag costs 8 and is worth 1/4 what an old Bag of Crafting Materials was worth
Bag more Craft Mats	1	40	946	27.02857143	LCB = 1/5 BMCM
Chest of Loyalty Clover	7	60	1366	39.02857143
Chest of Loyalty Obsidian	8	50	1766	50.45714286
Chest Loyalty gold find %	2	1000	3766	107.6
Gold coins	56	18	4774	136.4	18 is the average of 6 and 30, needed to sustain over a season
Celebration booster	1				not available
Gem store items	4				not available
1 exotic equipment	1				not available

You get celebration boosters for weeklies, 40 more laurels for weeklies, you get ascended gear options instead of exotic. You get gem store items if you buy them, including options you didn't get before. Again skins if you want them, let's take the 1,000 essence and swap the griphon skin for $20usd of gems converted to gold. How about the legendary starter kit with a full gift of might or magic?  Yes, if you do the bare minimum of just logging in, don't do the dailies and weeklies and special stuff, it's worse. If you do, it's way better. You cutting out and not counting 2/3 of the new stuff because it's not exactly the same stuff isn't a great comparison.

[Soon.5240]

59 minutes ago, Kaliwenda.3428 said:

I feel like the people who designed them (the PvE ones, that's the only ones I've got selected) don't really understand the community socialization aspect of the old daily system.

I agree with this.  It's very noticeable with the change how players used to converge on a Map, World Boss, Jump Puzzle, etc. to complete their Dailies together.  That's absent now.

[Nifrodel.6804]

As a casual player, I no longer have a reason to log into the game on daily or even weekly basis. I used to log in every day with my 2 besties to run the Dailies together. Now we all have different dailies and all refuse to do 3 times the dailies per day which takes far more time than either of us can commit to on weekdays. So, I guess it's back to doing short METAs and chest runs... provided my motivation returns to log in at all.

[Wheezy.2846]

7 minutes ago, Nifrodel.6804 said:

As a casual player, I no longer have a reason to log into the game on daily or even weekly basis. I used to log in every day with my 2 besties to run the Dailies together. Now we all have different dailies and all refuse to do 3 times the dailies per day which takes far more time than either of us can commit to on weekdays. So, I guess it's back to doing short METAs and chest runs... provided my motivation returns to log in at all.

If you get in once a week and do weeklies and the dailies one time (and no, dailies won't take 3 times as long with friends. Most are things you can do anywhere, or in 2 minutes. View s vista, kill 10 enemies with a food buff, kill vets anywhere) you'd get just as much as previously if you don't care about the new skins and such.

[Ashen.2907]

It is odd that a response to a clearly stated comparison of new dailies to old dailies references weeklies.  

[Teribury Night.5702]

8 hours ago, theWitlessone.9635 said:

On your Third point, I maybe be missing what you mean, but I don't have any 80s, and I had dailies I could do on lvl12 Warrior.

If you've EVER had a lvl 80 toon on the account, the dailies will be available.  If you have yet to reach lvl 80 on any toon, ZERO dailies available.

[Teribury Night.5702]

In addition to the points made in the first post, I think the thing I miss most is actually having choices.  We had TWELVE dailies to choose from and only needed to do Three and could choose to do more if we liked.  Now, it's "You don't get ANY choices, do these three or go jump off a cliff...."  If they don't want to give rewards for doing additional dailies, that's fine, but give me back a few choices..  I've selected PVE dailies and it would be nice if I had five or six to choose from to do my three.  I also have more than one account and dailies DO NOT MATCH on all of them.  So like @Kaliwenda.3428 said, there's no longer a social aspect to getting dailies done between players!  People WANT to play together, but you're forcing them apart when it comes to dailies and weeklies.   This is not encouraging for the community!

[Dawdler.8521]

2 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

It is odd that a response to a clearly stated comparison of new dailies to old dailies references weeklies.  

Did you have weeklies in PvE before? Ignoring the full reward system would be intentionally misleading. The setup of the optionless dailies is garbage but from what I gather you can get more in total despite the split loot.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Ashen.2907]

22 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Did you have weeklies in PvE before? Ignoring the full reward system would be intentionally misleading. The setup of the optionless dailies is garbage but from what I gather you can get more in total despite the split loot.

Weeklies are a separate series of tasks largely, or completely, independent of dailies. When comparing A to its replacement B, you do not add C to B unless you add something to A. It took me about 7 hours to complete my weeklies. If you want to add their value to the new dailies then you need to add what could have been earned in the same 7 hours before to the old dailies....Lets say 25g per hour then. So 175g plus the yield of the dailies under the old system. How does that compare to what could be earned in the same time?

 

[Dawdler.8521]

1 hour ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Weeklies are a separate series of tasks largely, or completely, independent of dailies. When comparing A to its replacement B, you do not add C to B unless you add something to A. It took me about 7 hours to complete my weeklies. If you want to add their value to the new dailies then you need to add what could have been earned in the same 7 hours before to the old dailies....Lets say 25g per hour then. So 175g plus the yield of the dailies under the old system. How does that compare to what could be earned in the same time?

 

... But did you have weeklies in PvE before?

If you compare JUST gathering raw gold from daily over say the first 30 days and ignoring everything else, it should be a total of 1950 (65 a day) astrals. Which is 30g (1g daily) + 90g limited (540 astrals at 6 a piece) + 47g (with the 1410 left at 30 a piece) = 167g. 

In the same time of old 2g daily you would get... 60g.

Of course it's more complicated than this due to the limited supply items in the new vault and the extra astrals from the weeklies, but then the old had of course other loot per chest too.

I mean even on a really, really basic level you can get 3g a day by doing the daily (with no limitation), ignore the weekly and spend the rest of the time farming PvE I guess 🤷‍♂️

Edited August 26, 2023 by Dawdler.8521

[Kendahna.9542]

13 hours ago, CoyrmGreybeard.1746 said:

... If we can't do dailies together, there is less incentive to log on as a group. Research shows that today people log into games to play with people they know, why would you introduce a change that makes it harder to play with your friends?

Whoever thought of it and approved it clearly has NO IDEA and is pretty much lost on how the community in GW2 functions... Just amazing...

I agree with all of your other points as well, thank you for the post.

[Frostea.7451]

If the weeklies take 7 hours to do as someone said here, then Im not sure they should be part of the calculation. What before could be done in 5-10 min now asks for 7+ hours? I not sure I will complete them even once. So for me new system is way less rewarding.

Also agree with the other points. I will add one thing. Why cant I track my dailies with the achievment tracker anymore? Why? I liked that. Now it replaces the achievments Im working on, when it doesnt have to.

[Dawdler.8521]

20 minutes ago, Frostea.7451 said:

What before could be done in 5-10 min now asks for 7+ hours? I not sure I will complete them even once. So for me new system is way less rewarding.

... did you have weekly PvE objectives that took 5-10m to complete in the old system? 🤔

[Frostea.7451]

3 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

... did you have weekly PvE objectives that took 5-10m to complete in the old system? 🤔

No, I didnt. 😄 And thats the point. I didnt have few hours of chores, only 5-10 min for same or little less rewards. And for me time is the important part of the calculation. I have to choose if I want to do weeklies or progress story or do some collection or farm gold. I cant do all.

[Dawdler.8521]

1 minute ago, Frostea.7451 said:

No, I didnt. 😄 And thats the point. I didnt have few hours of chores, only 5-10 min for same or little less rewards. And for me time is the important part of the calculation. I have to choose if I want to do weeklies or progress story or do some collection or farm gold. I cant do all.

Of course you cant. But that what was written earlier was a stupid comparison to begin with the "7h+" and saying it could be done in  5-10m before make no sense - it didnt exist before. And you dont have to do it now either - nobody is forcing you to do anything. You can completely ignore the vault and farm 30g+ an hour in PvE if all you want is gold and a melted brain.

That the new system has more loot than the old is undeniable.

The garbage dailies having no options (when weeklies do), the constant UI opening and clicking that can easily be forgotten, the capped currency system along with the limited items forcing you to manage your own ingame shop unless you want to "miss out" well that's other issues.