Runes and Relics: brief first impressions.

[Buran.3796]

   Under the new design changes, the Superior Runes in GW2 are now a piece of gear that between its six parts provide a total of 400 stats points when only 2 main stats are granted (for example, Scholar gives now 175 points of power and 225 points of Ferocity). 

   The general rule for secondary attributes (expertise, ferocity, healing power, boon duration) is that every 15 stat points increases the value ina 1% (the same as precission increase the crit chance in 1%), so a similar conversion can be done to calculate the value of each sets of runes. But under that view some runes with secondary stats provide way more value: runes with 4 slots of main stats and 2 slots of 5% and 10% secondary stats deliver 425 stat points in value (Monk, for example). Runes with 25% increase in secondary stats as Fireworks or Lyssa provide 550 points in value. Calculate the value in stat points of runes with non general effects (as having 50% duration in a single condition as Balthazar) or a special feature as 25% increase in movement speed (Traveller, Cavalier, Surge) is harder: Balthazar is a waste if you don’t deal burn damage but represents 925 stat points if you only do burn damage and run a condi build, as happens with some Guardians), qol of increased movement speed is hard to evaluate: can be meaningless for a raid player but crucial for a WvW roamer.

   Then there’s the runes with “all stat bonus”: Leadership brings 627 stat points in value, whereas Divinity delivers 546 stat points. This showcases a landscape with huge defferences in stat values in which the real benefit depends on the context: if you hit your cap level in crit chance or damage duration before chosing the runes, you won’t invest in those stats no matter how good is the objective value of the stat points in the rune. But my impression is that in general unless you’re running a instanced premade build runes with bonus in secondary stats give more bang for the buck.

   There’s only 3 runes with the 25% increased movement speed (Traveler, Cavalier and Surging), with the later ones requiring large amounts of WvW/PvE tonkens to be purchased. There’s no runes with 10% HP increase effect.

   In PvP Lynx can be the perfect choice for hybrid builds chasing better mobility, since provides power & condition damage; Traveler there is weak since there’s no celestial stats to carry in PvP and boon duration is minimal in that game mode.

   All in all, the runes are a bit meaningless now: most of them are just stat numbers and very few will have use, with power & ferocity and condition damage & expertise being the most obvious choices outside support builds. Anet could probably just integrate the runes in the armor/trinket stat system (or delete them to prevent power creep), but that wold erase tons of rewards from the game and affect the economic balance. In general, without the Relics the old system was stronger, with much more impactful features attached to some particular runes.

   Relics.

  At the moment, relics are way fewer (40 vs 99) that the number of the older 6th rune features, and most of them are gone forever. The new piece would bring new effects and special relics from expansions will offer entirely new interactions.

   The current roster is divided in Relics related to power damage, condition damage, support and survival. Relics are exotic in quality and therefiore soul bond (can’t be moved between characters). Their wiki is stll lacking and full of imprecissions or just unexplained interactions. This is my review of them after some testing:

   Survival

   Speed relic seems the only strong choice here. Seems a bit niche since you need a build with good swiftness access in order to take advantage of the incresed speed, but if you want increased mobility and for a reason you don’t want to run Sourging, Traveler or Cavalier runes the Speed Relic can be a very good alternative. Fits very well my PvE/WvW Firebrand which runs “Advance!”. In PvP I prefer using Lynx runes since the duration of swiftness is way shorter there. At the moment I run Fireworks rune + Speed relic in PvE in my OW Firebrand, and Lynx rune + Brawler relic in PvP.

   Speed rune in Revenants can make plenty iof sense if you run Rapid Flow trait in Invocation, since you’ll get the benefits almost constantly. The problem I find out is that you can’t stack swiftenss in duration, so you’re forced to cast abilities with energy cost to proc swiftness to get the benefit when swiftness expires, and that’s annoying (and can be hard in competitive game modes) Instead, in my celestial Renegade build I prefer to use Surging runes: I get the passive permanent movement pace with no compromises, boon duration to stack with celestial, and power stats. Herald can get swiftness without resorting in Rapid Flow, but movement doesn’t seem as a crucial problem in Herald as in a non WB Guardian. Maybe Speed relic fits better a condition Herald, albeit with the short bow available a condi Herald roamer shouldn’t be as menaced by lack of mobility.

   Do Speed relic affect Vidnicator builds? Vindicator has the largest potential in mobility amongst Rev builds, so is not that vital. To me, the worst part of SotO expansion for Vindi was losing the procs of fury + might + vigor in the Firworks rune (or the procs in Durability rune). Fireworks changes hut dps, sustain and evade mechanics all at the same time. I can replace Fireworks with Surging keeping the qol and boon duration, but the damage is lost, and so far didn’t found any solution in the new relics.

   The rest of Survival relics seems to be utter niche situational crap, and a waste of space.

   Support.

   Antitoxin relic instantly makes Water relic useless, talking about redundance. Seems one of the strongest choices for player vs player interaction, specially if you play Renegade or Vindicator (Herald cleanses usually sucks).  But neither of them require this relic. I’m using it in PvP in my Renebow but I’m still unsure. For Guardians, WB in PvE/WvW has too many cleanses to care, and Bawrler seems better choice. In PvP WB cleanses remain nerfed, so can help. 

   Durability: a solid choice for Revs in  since you can heal every 15 seconds (or less) and specially for cele Renegade since the increased boon duration in full celestial is 60% so you can get 6,4 seconds of protection + regeneration every 15 seconds you complete you heal animation. That seems bonkers and won’t surprise me if gets a nerf. The same can be said with most of WvW builds and specs: given how weak are the power ofensive relics, the best choices if your mobility is covered is either condi relics or Durability or Antitoxin. Less useful in PvP due crap boon duration.

   Leadership relic: good for Herald but not as good as Antitoxin.

   Other support runes: Trooper, Monk, Mercy… are for the niche role of defensive support builds; will serve well raiders and some members in organized PvP/WvW guilds but for mosr of players going alone have no use. Of course, in a small squad vs squad WvW skirmish the group with the misntrel healer + support runes will usually outsustain their foes. So they have value, but is situational and I usually don’t fit in that situations.

   Power.

   For instanced content some have value for specific builds, a Deadeye can easily turn that 10% damage in a permanent bonus at raids and even competitive game mode. But most of the power relics require “use X each T seconds to get N damage bonus”, and most of classes doesn’t even have the X or T required, so again is suepr niche and super weak; old runes provided boon procs in spades, new relics don’t gran access to fury, might stacks, invulns or anything similar. I find out Brawler useful in my Firebrand and Willbender builds, but not better that what they had las Monday. 0 usable relics hele for Revs, IMO.

   Condition.

   This is the meat of the relic system, were some of the best PvE (and sometimes unintended) synergies landed, and which made some builds able to nock in the 50k dps door. Sadly most of them won’t give much to heavy armor professions.

   Reaper relic: effective in competitive game modes, specially for Cryomancers/Terrormancers which can enhance their already powerful cc game. You can also troll with a support Guardian or Warrior which interrupts people, but if you run shouts with those classes the mate will probably remain in Trooper relic.

    Necromancer relic: I think that this is even stronger than Reaper relic, since most of necro builds in compoetitive game modes don’t use more than a couple of shouts and the chill duration last a second (plus condi ruration) whereas with Necromancer relic now your foes under fear moves as slow as chilled (albeit they don’t lower their cooldown timers) and fear last for ages in Terrormancer builds. This has broken potential in WvW/PvP...

   Krait, Nightmare relics: powerful but not spammy.  I don’t think that would get much use from Revs or Guardians.  

  Mirage relic: a perfect PvE choice for some condi builds, including Herald, Renegade and Vindicator (specially that later since greatly benefits from spamming aveades). I still don’t see condi Revs working in PvP so I guess is way weaker there... 

   The other condition relics seems colorful but less impactful. There’s some weird interactions like the one which scales damage with heals and turned Druid staff into a nuke laser in WvW but those can be expected to be adjusted to a more normal performance.

   Overall I’m not happy with the relic system: most of the effects in the 6th rune are gone, which destroyed some builds which had niche use (goodbye trapper Dragonhunter) or greatly reduced boon access. That doesn’t mean that my PvE Vindicator can’t get permanent fury, vigor, 25 stacks of might, protection and either quickness or regeneration (I still can) but that if your class/spec was weaker at accessing at ofensive boons (Guardian) now you can’t compensate it with runes nor relics and therefore you should probably think about reroll…

    So I don’t see the increase in build variety which was the motto to promote the undemanded changes in runes. I think that this was a move made to a) force players to regrind and spent time to regear again; b) cut boom access and c) remove things which required balance.

    So is the same tactic than when they removed amulets and runes and sigils in PvP and nerfed everything so had that 80% of builds since EoD ended running the same Divinity not due was OP dut beacuse everytnig else was crap.

   Easily 75% of the old (now new) runes are redundant and pretty much meta PvE builds will run 2-3 dps choices (a bit more variety inm support builds). Relics will mandate a single choice for meta PvE attached to a single build, unless competitive game modes in which maybe we will see 7-8 in use.

   Between survival, support and power relics I only find 4 relics that give good value; condition relics double that number but they are very situational. Power relics in general sucks.

 

   Of course things will change once the the exclusive new relics from new expansions arrive with they new pay to win powercreep enhancements, but I'll be clear here: I didn't bought SotO, I think that for a PvP/WvW players offers nothing and therefore I voted with my wallet, so the menace of "missing out" means nothing to me. 

[Dagger.2035]

Yeah, I feel like Revenant has a slight disadvantage when trying to use Power relics since it has to deal with upkeep skills.  You can't freely play as you did before since you need to refresh the thief relic, but doing so also is a waste of energy.  You have to pick your poison.  This is why the old eagle, scholar, strength, runes were much better.

[Buran.3796]

   Tested stuff. Currently running:

   WvW Renegade (roamer): celestial stats, rune of Surging (power + boon duration + mobility) Durability relic. The boon duration makes if magnificent, 6.4" of protection and regeneration every 15 after a heal. I think that I prefer it over Antitoxin in this build due I have cleansings in Jalis (5), the staff skill (2) and a  sigil of cleansing (3). In general I feel I don't need to add another 3 cleanses to those 10, whereas more than six seconds of protection + regen in a build with over 3k armor and healing power from cele stats feels just broken.

   PvE OW Renegade (solo and events), cele, viper or ritualist stats (run all in different gear templates, albeit prefer cele), Nightmare runes + Mirage for the extra torment procs while evading. But since I don't care that much about the damage buff I end running the roaming build with the Righteus Rebel trait to give perma alacrity to allies.

    PvP Renegade: Berserker amulet x Lynx rune 8power, vcondi damage and mobility) with Antitoxin relic. In PvP Durability relic only last 3 seconds (instead of 4) and we don't have cele stats to buff the boons; Brawler could work as ofensive alteranative at proccing Resolution but the duration of Brawler is meh and the aplication is limited, whereas Antitoxin just works without relevant nerfs.

   PvE OW Vindicator (solo and events): Celestial stats with either Tormenting or Nightmare runes, Mirage relic for dps or Durability for suatain. Feels similar to before the change. Still extremely tanky, still slow at moving so albeit enjoy its power is not my fav build.

 

   WvW Power DH (roamer): marauder stats, Ranger runes (to cap crit chance, Eagle are almost the same), Brawler relic (for the extra burst after each used vitue). Durability doesn't fit well due the larger cd in the heal doesn't overlap.

   PvP Power DH: Marauder stats, Lynx rune, Antitoxin relic. Here we have better mobility (without Speed) and since we won't crit cap Brawler feels limited, and DH doesn't have much cleanses.

   WvW Power Willbender (roamer): Dragon + Marauder stats, Eagle runes, Brawler relic. WB has mobility and good cleanses in WvW. Brawler seems perfect with the cosntant use of virtues to prtoc it but Durability can also work well if Reversal of Fortune is our heal due 16 s cooldowns fits perfectly with 15s cooldwon proc from the relic.

   PvE OW condi Willbender (solo and events): Dire + TB stats with Balthazar runes; since we lost 10%+ HP from the runes Durability works perfectly as sustain enhancement.

   Power WB PvP: Marauder + Eagle +  Antitoxin. In PvP WB has one F2 clease less, so AT helps. Again, Durability is weaker in PvP compared to WvW.

 

   Hybrid Firebrand PvE (solo and events) & WvW (roaming) & PvP: I play a similar build in all the game modes, I have another 3 FB specialized templates that almost never touch. In WvW and PvE I run celestial stats + Baltahzar runes, in PvP Carrion + Balthazar. For mobility I use "Advance!" + Speed rune (which sadly last less and has higher cooldowns in PvP). Is not great in any game mode but unlike qFB, hFB and the rest of "meta" FB builds I enjoy this one. Is not that mobile, not that durable, lacks range, but has good cc, good defenses and in small skirmishes and sometimes in 1 v1 when lands the burst nukes everything in 3-4 seconds.

   I'm now trying to figure which runes and relics to use with my power Vindi (PvE, WvW and PvP). Is not easy due Fireworks buffed all (movement, vigor, damage from fury and might stacks, sustain...). The dps alternatives (relic of Brawler, Thief) are weaker and the options for mobility are either Surging (so we lose dps) or Speed runes (clunky to take advantage of). Durability isn't as strong in a non-celestial build. I have to test more...

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

11 hours ago, Dagger.2035 said:

Yeah, I feel like Revenant has a slight disadvantage when trying to use Power relics since it has to deal with upkeep skills.  You can't freely play as you did before since you need to refresh the thief relic, but doing so also is a waste of energy.  You have to pick your poison.  This is why the old eagle, scholar, strength, runes were much better.

Rev has plenty of opportunities in its rotation to refresh its thief relic. The only issue with Rev and thief relic at the moment is that the 3rd skill on both GS AND S/S (phantom onslaught/unrelenting assault) don’t give thief relic credit right now, so it’s partially bugged. But otherwise mist unleashed is meant to be spammed regardless so as long as you can maintain DPS on target you shouldn’t ever drop thief’s bonus 

Edited August 28, 2023 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Dagger.2035]

On 8/27/2023 at 9:06 PM, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Rev has plenty of opportunities in its rotation to refresh its thief relic. The only issue with Rev and thief relic at the moment is that the 3rd skill on both GS AND S/S (phantom onslaught/unrelenting assault) don’t give thief relic credit right now, so it’s partially bugged. But otherwise mist unleashed is meant to be spammed regardless so as long as you can maintain DPS on target you shouldn’t ever drop thief’s bonus 

My bad I should have mentioned that I mainly play WvW.  What you are saying makes sense in PvE since there are no consequences for using skills and energy, but WvW is different.  You have to react to what the enemy players and your commander are doing so you don't have the option to pick whether you want to play melee or range.

If you are stuck at range, you will be using Elemental Blast, Coalescence of Ruin, Phase Smash, Inspiring Reinforcement, and Drop the Hammer.  Typically, you always use Coalescence of Ruin and Phase Smash together since they hit at the same time for higher burst damage then you can refresh the relic when using Drop the Hammer as a CC.  Either way you run out of gas and won't be able to sustain the relic stacks.

If you are starting at range and pushing into melee then you will be using Elemental Blast, Coalescence of Ruin, Phase Smash, Burst of Strength, Inspiring Reinforcement, and then apply sustained damage with sword/sword via auto attacks and Vengeful Hammers.  Having an active upkeep skill is important for the 13% damage that Forceful Persistence provides so I don't use weapon skills if they aren't needed.  Shackling Wave is a good AOE burst, and Chilling Isolation can be used to burst a single target.  Unrelenting Assault should be saved to help self-sustain yourself during hard won fights and Deathstrike should be used for either offensive or defensive repositioning.  This is why I said you have to pick your poison and choose whether to use your skills appropriately or burn through them to keep the thief relic going.

This is why I think the old T6 damage bonuses were better (strength, eagle, scholar).  They were more generic and could be used by most professions.  You also didn't have to alter your playstyle to use them since they were passive bonuses.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

5 hours ago, Dagger.2035 said:

My bad I should have mentioned that I mainly play WvW.  What you are saying makes sense in PvE since there are no consequences for using skills and energy, but WvW is different.  You have to react to what the enemy players and your commander are doing so you don't have the option to pick whether you want to play melee or range.

If you are stuck at range, you will be using Elemental Blast, Coalescence of Ruin, Phase Smash, Inspiring Reinforcement, and Drop the Hammer.  Typically, you always use Coalescence of Ruin and Phase Smash together since they hit at the same time for higher burst damage then you can refresh the relic when using Drop the Hammer as a CC.  Either way you run out of gas and won't be able to sustain the relic stacks.

If you are starting at range and pushing into melee then you will be using Elemental Blast, Coalescence of Ruin, Phase Smash, Burst of Strength, Inspiring Reinforcement, and then apply sustained damage with sword/sword via auto attacks and Vengeful Hammers.  Having an active upkeep skill is important for the 13% damage that Forceful Persistence provides so I don't use weapon skills if they aren't needed.  Shackling Wave is a good AOE burst, and Chilling Isolation can be used to burst a single target.  Unrelenting Assault should be saved to help self-sustain yourself during hard won fights and Deathstrike should be used for either offensive or defensive repositioning.  This is why I said you have to pick your poison and choose whether to use your skills appropriately or burn through them to keep the thief relic going.

This is why I think the old T6 damage bonuses were better (strength, eagle, scholar).  They were more generic and could be used by most professions.  You also didn't have to alter your playstyle to use them since they were passive bonuses.

Yeah I agree that I wouldn't use Thief Relic for WvW and instead opt for something else

[Jobber.6348]

On 8/26/2023 at 7:20 PM, Buran.3796 said:

 Survival

   Speed relic seems the only strong choice here. Seems a bit niche since you need a build with good swiftness access in order to take advantage of the incresed speed, but if you want increased mobility and for a reason you don’t want to run Sourging, Traveler or Cavalier runes the Speed Relic can be a very good alternative. Fits very well my PvE/WvW Firebrand which runs “Advance!”. In PvP I prefer using Lynx runes since the duration of swiftness is way shorter there. At the moment I run Fireworks rune + Speed relic in PvE in my OW Firebrand, and Lynx rune + Brawler relic in PvP.

Me who runs Water because I'm allergic to Condi: Say what.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Yasai.3549