What's Renegade's intended purpose in PvP now?

[Shagie.7612]

With weaponmaster training, the only thing it has now is the pierce, which I think it's obvious currently that you DO NOT NEED in order to have a successful shortbow build.

Vindicator and Herald's legend choices, traits, sustain, cleanse, basically every area is superior.
Renegade maybe does more damage on a condi build, if left entirely alone in the match compared to the other two, but that's it? It makes poor use of rabid as an amulet compared to herald too, so you can't even really make a knockoff of that because you're lacking glint, true nature, the shield trait, and so on.

Make some changes, because it badly needs it. Pretty frustrating.

[Shao.7236]

Renegade healing is terrible for starters. Nerfed to the ground with it's modifiers now being multiplicative you can't tank conditions like before.

Summons should have a permanent stack of stability since there's so many random stuns that can ruin the entire utility set.

Those are two things that would easily make it more appealing to play because you can at least withstand the more braindead type of gameplay coming from any competent plays.

[Shagie.7612]

I don't really want what happened with Zerk where they just threw a bajillion healing/eHP on it and let you get away with facetanking everything.
I also really would not like the Renegod days of spamming 111 at people without any thoughts, but it's really painful no matter what kind of build you play as Rene.

There's so many match ups where I'll land everything, dodge as many important things as possible from them, and still lose because sustain/cleanse/whatever. Winning some fights takes outplaying people by MILES while the smallest mistake means your loss, while the other person can shake off plenty of mistakes.

I do also think there's a degree of shortbow being completely taken out of a match from projectile hate (mostly tempest these days) that make it feel a lot worse and that's more of a metagame thing than renegade's strength necessarily, but it's been what, 3 years now since they sent it to the shadow realm?

I do okay as it, I'm probably one of the highest, if not the actual highest consistent renegade player on NA, but if I had spent my time and practice on virtually any other spec I would win SO many more fights and overall matches, and that feels bad.

I like citadel bombardment, I like the ghost army, I wanna use em, c'mon man.

[Buran.3796]

On 8/31/2023 at 11:25 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

With weaponmaster training, the only thing it has now is the pierce, which I think it's obvious currently that you DO NOT NEED in order to have a successful shortbow build.

Vindicator and Herald's legend choices, traits, sustain, cleanse, basically every area is superior.

   But are they?

   Renegade uses Shiro + Jalis in PvP/WvW roaming; Shiro provides mobility, extra damage and a strong AoE cc, Jalis a strong heal with plenty of cleansing, a unblockable cc with 900 range, a very good source of AoE stability pulses and nice damage mitigation. The Renegade spec traitline offers Citadel Bombardment, which along Spiritcrush and Scorchrazor works well about foes abusing projectile reflects, and also very good access to fury and vigor.

   What Herald brings up? Quickness?(*) Better sustain? If you take Glint legend instead of Jalis your condi cleanses becomes crap, and you no longer have access to stability; Herald cc are AoE unlike forcend engagement, but shorter in range and easy to block/evade. Replace Shiro with Glint and you'll became more tankier but worse at positioning, which I don't think would bring better results. Vindicator's traitline is PvE eoriented aand The Alliance legend has almost no cc.  Yes the cleanses from Tree Song are good, but the heals in that legend suck at PvP and I don't see The Alliance being any better than Shiro or Jalis, so why you would run a Vindicator with a bow?

   Take this with a grain of salt, since you're much better player than me, and I'll probably miss things that you're aware of facing top players constantly, but I'm not sure at all that weapon mastery changes much the things outside PvE for the short bow. Yesterady faced an "immortal" Mesmer at WvW with like a trillion of i-frames and reflects and after like two minutes of trying to burst me while basically ignoring most of my attacks finally ended with him fleeing away with less than 5% HP and all his resources depleted....   And all was facing was my cele Renebow with runes of Surging and Durability relic.

   Is Rev (all specs) less powerfull than current meta builds at PvP/WvW? Yes. But I don't think that the Renegade short bow build is in a bad place at competitive game modes at the moment. If all, I miss more damage at PvE in exchange for the loss of sustain that Herald and Vindi provide.

(*) Quickness isn't available at WvW/PvP from Herald's Elevated Compassion, so I wonder if the traitline offers anything at all over Renegade.

Edited September 2, 2023 by Buran.3796

[Shagie.7612]

20 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

I'll probably miss things that you're aware of

I mean, the major one seems like the difference between spvp and wvw

Cele stats exist which disproportionally buff hybrid weapons like shortbow.
Runes like Surging aren't available in spvp, the only movespeed ones are lynx/traveler which aren't as optimized
Sigils like cleansing and energy are less effective, 3/1 conditions, 50/25% energy.

Resilient Spirit is 170 per boon instead of 119, Unyielding Devotion is 5% less DR and uptime is lessened now without the permanent heal from Dolyak runes
Charged Mists isn't really worth taking in PvP so there's a 25 energy difference every legend swap, which is especially big every time you go Jalis. Even if you took it, 10 energy isn't enough to do things with as effectively as the WvW version.
Vindication's 3s in WvW, plus boon duration, compared to 1s in PvP, if you take it.

Roads is a 3s buff in wvw and a 5s shorter CD, where in PvP it's 1s and pulses in such a way that you can get CC'd between stacks (no other pulsing stability, like Balanced Stance for example, has this problem despite being the same 1s duration/pulse lol)
Forced Engagement isn't unblockable.

Phase Traversal's still a 5s CD in WvW, it's 12 in spvp
Impossible Odds is a .65 coefficient in WvW compared to pvp's .45 (44% more).

Shortbow 5's a 12s CD instead of 18.

I very specifically mentioned PvP and not WvW or PvE, I'm really not sure how they're relevant.

e: I should add that yes, all classes are weaker in spvp relative to wvw, and that's fine, but changes like Charged Mists, that change how you play, how often you can cast abilities and their relative opportunity costs, are significantly more debilitating than something's number being smaller, like Impossible Odds and what most specs have for the vast majority of their differences.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Buran.3796]

^ While I agree in those points I don't see how makes a different case for Renegade compared to Herald or Vindicator, since most of these PvP nerfs affect all Rev specs. Sure, Renegade doesn't benefit much from shield (but neither the other two), but I didn't saw Heralds or Vindis running bows in this two last weeks. And yes, I saw some Heralds running greatsword, but mele builds with no access to stability and near 0 cleanses utterly suck in the current meta.

   So: Rene is weak in PvP, but also H & V. That's also true for half of the classes and 80% of the specs.

[Shagie.7612]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

(but neither the other two)

the shield trait is fantastic on herald tho, plus mallyx true nature? it handles condis fine.
you can play condi herald with shortbow now instead of staff, you don't lose momentum on your weapon swap anymore. condi herald is prolly the best spec rev's got right now overall, with or without shortbow.

power shortbow vindicator is better than power renegade too. 10-15% more damage on modifiers, better sustained condi cleanse, more endurance, a good stunbreak that also dazes and gives stab, the alliance stance objectively heals more than jalis, shiro, mallyx (unless clearing 4 condis that aren't poison) or kalla if you use both viktor and archemorus, and you can dump energy into viktor for more if you need it. regen uptime's probably better overall too if wrought-iron will isn't being reprocced at all times.
it does lack a bit of burst condi removal like the jalis heal, but it's not terrible if you play salvation, or throw antitoxin on. devastation's more fun though, big numbers lol

no rev spec's up there with something like soulbeast, that's for sure, but herald and vindi definitely outpace renegade currently on shortbow builds as condi and power, respectively. they're better at most things, SB rene can cleave teamfights harder because of pierce but that's only gonna happen if it's entirely ignored, which would be really silly to do.

i still prefer renegade over either but i don't think it's better, on average, for shortbow builds, which are already suboptimal compared to the more common builds

Edited September 4, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Buran.3796]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:56 AM, Shagie.7612 said:

the shield trait is fantastic on herald tho, plus mallyx true nature? it handles condis fine.

power shortbow vindicator is better than power renegade too. 10-15% more damage on modifiers, better sustained condi cleanse, more endurance, a good stunbreak that also dazes and gives stab, the alliance stance objectively heals more than jalis, shiro, mallyx 

 herald and vindi definitely outpace renegade currently on shortbow builds as condi and power, respectively. they're better at most things, SB rene can cleave teamfights harder because of pierce but that's only gonna happen if it's entirely ignored, which would be really silly to do.

i still prefer renegade over either but i don't think it's better, on average, for shortbow builds, which are already suboptimal compared to the more common builds

   Are you still talking about PvP? Because shield is unused outside Herald and Herald was a waste of space in the last two MATs.

   The Alliance has two heals... for 714 points each 30 seconds in PvP. Has MUCH better acces to regeneration tho. But loses Citadel Bombardment each 15 seconds (has Reach each 20). I think that Vindi's evade is currently weaker than the regular one since is more telegraphed and foes place their cc better against...  Maybe.

   But don't se Herald: the condi build is too slow for the pace at the game moves now, is not tanky and doesn't have the re sustain nor mobility to survive being focused (unless you devote your traitlines to survive and then your damage is so bad you doesn't belong to a match). Can power Herald benefit from short bow and or greatsword? Well, greatsword is for cleaving, which implies teamfights, and power Herald doesn't last in teamfights aside from hit and run.  I think that Weapon Mastery benefits condi Herald in WvW due they can now run a second weapon set with hybrid damage at range to they can now deliver pressure at any range and chose between off hand axe for better cc combos, shield for sustain or off hand sword for mobility. But I don't see that being better than Renegade as a roaming build.

   

[Shagie.7612]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

The Alliance has two heals... for 714 points each 30 seconds in PvP

What? Archemorus and Saint Viktor tick 4 and 5 separate times, respectively. So it's 714x9 if you use both.

But yes, you can play mace/shield and shortbow on a rabid amulet condi herald. It's pretty good. Rabid condi herald isn't really that bad in general rn. Even carrion isn't half bad, more damage but you'll get nuked by soulbeast/chrono/scrapper without toughness. 

Shortbow isn't that good on power herald, but if you wanted to play power shortbow in spvp you'd play vindicator anyways.

Condi shortbow is better as herald because Glint is a better legend than Jalis in spvp and you can handle conditions without it.
Power shortbow is better as vindicator because it's got more sustain, more burst, an infinitely better stunbreak in reaver's rage/awakening than Rite of the Great Dwarf (if you get forced into using it), an extra mobility skill if you really need it, and better energy economy.

That's really it, Citadel Bombardment isn't worth it without Charged Mists giving 25 energy, Heroic Command and Orders from Above aren't worth what you lose, and the pierce trait is really good but clearly unnecessary.

[arazoth.7290]

power builds hammer > shortbow

[Frayze.4620]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:55 AM, Buran.3796 said:

^ While I agree in those points I don't see how makes a different case for Renegade compared to Herald or Vindicator, since most of these PvP nerfs affect all Rev specs. Sure, Renegade doesn't benefit much from shield (but neither the other two), but I didn't saw Heralds or Vindis running bows in this two last weeks. And yes, I saw some Heralds running greatsword, but mele builds with no access to stability and near 0 cleanses utterly suck in the current meta.

   So: Rene is weak in PvP, but also H & V. That's also true for half of the classes and 80% of the specs.

If you haven’t seen vindi or herald running sbow in WvW recently I don’t know where you’ve been but it isn’t the same maps I’ve been on…

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Frayze.4620 said:

If you haven’t seen vindi or herald running sbow in WvW recently I don’t know where you’ve been but it isn’t the same maps I’ve been on…

   I haven't seen them in PvP and I have played 141 matches this season. Maybe two Vindis and none Herald with short bow in 18 days since the expansion release. In WvW? Shagie was taling about PvP; in WvW saw some Renegades, but in roaming most of the foes I met are Necros, Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers and Engineers: heavies are the least amount of roamers I found. Noticed the Holos running Scrapper hammers, and Catalyst using Weaver's sord and all kind of Necros running pistol now. But not much Revs.

Edited September 9, 2023 by Buran.3796

[Frayze.4620]

12 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   I haven't seen them in PvP and I have played 141 matches this season. Maybe two Vindis and none Herald with short bow in 18 days since the expansion release. In WvW? Shagie was taling about PvP; in WvW saw some Renegades, but in roaming most of the foes I met are Necros, Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers and Engineers: heavies are the least amount of roamers I found. Noticed the Holos running Scrapper hammers, and Catalyst using Weaver's sord and all kind of Necros running pistol now. But not much Revs.

Ahh sorry, I saw WvW mentioned and thought it was you. Large groups are running vindi with bow also heralds. Much faster, can apply all damage with movement and some very nice cc as well. Takes away the terrain problems that hammer can still, after his many years now, have at the worst possible times.

[Buran.3796]

   Spudzie released a video with WvW cele short bow Vindi:

 

   Very similar to what cele Renegade and cele Vindi already ran. Has no direct translation to PvP for gear reasons. I've been trying in PvP wizard Herald with sb + mace & axe, Mallyx + Shiro and Corruption + Invocation. Not sure: good cc but weak defenses. I guess maybe shout run Salvation instead of Corruption, but then would be more a power build, and in that regard Vindicator or Renegade would be a better choice.

   Not related but I can't resist to ad: for OW PvE I really don't like short bow in Herald; we lose a ton of AoE burst from the Citadel and the lack of Heartpiercing. The short bow is a great adition to power builds in instanced content and soft content, but power in general suck big time dealing with really hard task (I'm ending the Aurora achievements and almost everything was soloed with cele Renegade). 

[Flowki.7194]

I played ren for quite a while, and one thing became obvious, its escape potential is simply bad. Herald has more access to greater speed, another stun etc that can help in escapes, but Vindi by far has the best escape potential imo.

 

To me this is the key thing, its not purely about damage, vindi simply has more ability to escape situations where ren/herald die, with obvious implications on resets or ability to come back and +1.

 

The shortbow might not be the best option for vindi, I dunno.. hammer does a lot of power dmg and with higher range. However, hammer is very cluncky and unreliable, especially its CC. Shortbow I think its just more reliable, even if it ''may?'' have lower dmg on paper.

 

It is quite a shame that in sPVP I can beat the kitten off other rens using their primary weapon as a cent support vindi, not even a dps vindi. Renegades legend needs a real overhaul to give it more sustain or disengage.. which it clearly lacks for what is suppose to be a ranged spec. I don't think vindi would be anything withought nomads advance.

 

It would genuinely make more sense for Ren to have vindis legend, and vindi to have rens, when you really look at it.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

19 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

It is quite a shame that in sPVP I can beat the kitten off other rens using their primary weapon as a cent support vindi, not even a dps vindi. Renegades legend needs a real overhaul to give it more sustain or disengage.. which it clearly lacks for what is suppose to be a ranged spec.

Realistically, that'd pretty much happen to any heavily projectile based build tbh, I dunno that it's much of a knock on rene.
That's kinda like Ventari's whole thing. It's pretty painful though how hard it is to damage Ventari, while a few other ranged specs just ignore proj hate.

But anyways, I dunno if it's possible to make Kalla a decent pvp legend without a significant rework. Like, ghosts not attackable and follow you, or reworking what the utilities do, like adding a port or stealth or something, idk. I don't mind playing Mallyx, Shiro, and Jalis, so not having the legend is kinda whatever. A bit strange to be the only elite spec that doesn't use theirs, but eh. It works well in PvE so getting a rework might be off the table.

I think it's much more likely to get some improvements through trait buffs or reworks, cost changes on the f1-3 (HEY MAKE CITADEL BOMBARDMENT LIKE THE UNDERWATER VERSION THAT HITS THE TARGET EVERY TIME THANKS) and shortbow skills, maybe some sustain here and there.
Kalla's Fervor already buffs life-steal damage, maybe make it just give some passive lifesteal too? Like a mini-Soulcleave that's always active. I know that's kinda Shiro/devastation's thing with battle scars, but it'd at least let the all-in aggressive spec stick around a bit better if they're really pumping.

I don't know how likely it is to see non-renegade traits adjusted, but I kinda wish they'd do something like the two retribution traits that are different if you have Vindicator selected. That's probably a pipe dream, where traits are tuned slightly differently for each spec, but there's not a lot of sustain built in to the traits in Renegade and Vindi/Herald are at risk of running amok if you unnerf some traits, so changing things that are troublesome for specific specs would be a really useful tool.
I know Anet doesn't like to do that, but it's kinda difficult at this point in the game's life where there's so many elite specs, to not do so.

The thing I really don't want is for Renegade to be changed like how Zerk was, where they kinda slapped on a bunch of "lol you no longer have to care about anything" changes, between the defense rework and actual Zerk buffs. It wasn't good before that, mind you, but I enjoyed the high risk playstyle.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Flowki.7194]

7 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

Realistically, that'd pretty much happen to any heavily projectile based build tbh, I dunno that it's much of a knock on rene.
That's kinda like Ventari's whole thing. It's pretty painful though how hard it is to damage Ventari, while a few other ranged specs just ignore proj hate.

But anyways, I dunno if it's possible to make Kalla a decent pvp legend without a significant rework. Like, ghosts not attackable and follow you, or reworking what the utilities do, like adding a port or stealth or something, idk. I don't mind playing Mallyx, Shiro, and Jalis, so not having the legend is kinda whatever. A bit strange to be the only elite spec that doesn't use theirs, but eh. It works well in PvE so getting a rework might be off the table.

I think it's much more likely to get some improvements through trait buffs or reworks, cost changes on the f1-3 (HEY MAKE CITADEL BOMBARDMENT LIKE THE UNDERWATER VERSION THAT HITS THE TARGET EVERY TIME THANKS) and shortbow skills, maybe some sustain here and there.
Kalla's Fervor already buffs life-steal damage, maybe make it just give some passive lifesteal too? Like a mini-Soulcleave that's always active. I know that's kinda Shiro/devastation's thing with battle scars, but it'd at least let the all-in aggressive spec stick around a bit better if they're really pumping.

I don't know how likely it is to see non-renegade traits adjusted, but I kinda wish they'd do something like the two retribution traits that are different if you have Vindicator selected. That's probably a pipe dream, where traits are tuned slightly differently for each spec, but there's not a lot of sustain built in to the traits in Renegade and Vindi/Herald are at risk of running amok if you unnerf some traits, so changing things that are troublesome for specific specs would be a really useful tool.
I know Anet doesn't like to do that, but it's kinda difficult at this point in the game's life where there's so many elite specs, to not do so.

The thing I really don't want is for Renegade to be changed like how Zerk was, where they kinda slapped on a bunch of "lol you no longer have to care about anything" changes, between the defense rework and actual Zerk buffs. It wasn't good before that, mind you, but I enjoyed the high risk playstyle.

Its range is only 900, with 0 disengage abilitys against melee. Basically chrono has more range, more damage, more disengages, and GS dmg that isnt reflectable, ren brings nothing to the table really. Youre right, Ren allience needs a rework for sure. Either more mitigation or more mobility.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Its range is only 900, with 0 disengage abilitys against melee.

For what it's worth you can fire SB5 behind you if you do some retargeting. People almost never dodge it, even high level players don't see it coming that well. It's only gonna temporarily help cause EoD made mobility nuts, but shortbow does have a decent ability to about face and still attack.

But yeah, I've often made jokes/rants to friends that if you were to balance Renegade's strengths relative to its weaknesses like Chrono's, sevenshot would kill someone with like half the arrows. And Chrono isn't even considered all that strong by most players, yet it blows Rene out of the water in most respects.

[Flowki.7194]

44 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

For what it's worth you can fire SB5 behind you if you do some retargeting. People almost never dodge it, even high level players don't see it coming that well. It's only gonna temporarily help cause EoD made mobility nuts, but shortbow does have a decent ability to about face and still attack.

But yeah, I've often made jokes/rants to friends that if you were to balance Renegade's strengths relative to its weaknesses like Chrono's, sevenshot would kill someone with like half the arrows. And Chrono isn't even considered all that strong by most players, yet it blows Rene out of the water in most respects.

Yeah I think people underplay how strong power chrono is to justify its burst, just becuase it can't stand on the point like a necro, and tbf most power chronos are way too aggressive, pushing front line like they are bladesworn. There isnt much that can catch power chrono playing defensively unless they overextend into your back line, if you have decent dps they will turn on that player while you chain invuln>stealth and then TP away if needed, and pistol stun. Its not as squishy as they try to make out, and even if thats the case at top level, its not like that for the other 95% of the avg games. Hell even if ren just had 1 invuln, it would make some difference. I try to play ren, then get jumped by a melee spec and remember why I don't bother, especially now that vindi and even herald does it all better on shortbow.

 

Infact ren is so bad I would actually argue its better to use GS - SS, and then use the ren legend purely for the invuln spam, as the only actual useble loadout of it.

Edited September 19, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Shagie.7612]

hello

every time i get CC'd in that little gap between the initial stability on jalis roads and its pulse i cry a little because there's almost no remaining players knowledgeable and skilled enough to time it, they didn't earn that CC at all.
i don't think it'd be that big of a deal if roads stability duration was back to 3s in pvp, but if not, don't let the gap stay there

we'll see what the upcoming balance patch brings, i guess

[arazoth.7290]

2-3 second would help yea

[Buran.3796]

   I've been playing quite a bit cele Vindi with short bow + greatsword in WvW roaming and PvP (power variant in PvP) the last 8 days and I must conced Shagie that Vindi short bow > Renegade shot bow. Lower burst and cc due no Bonbardment and move from Jalist to Alliance, but the mobility is way stronger and the sustain through vigor/evades/ regen makes eaier to survive. With greatsword the mele damage is way better and Scavenger Burst + Spear ads quite a lot to the ranged pressure. WvW roaming has been specially impressive.

   So yes, Rene needs some buffs (or everything else some nerfs). 

[Sereath.1428]

(Big post because the whole class has multiple problems.)

Herald is not doing great either (outside of PVE), the power variant specifically, is very mediocre nowadays.
Vindicator is the only relatively good spec right now. Can compete decently if you try your hardest. Edit: However, some would argue that condi Herald is the actual good rev spec right now, I'm just bias against it since I find the gameplay incredibly shallow compared to power herald.

So the only realistic or easy approach would be to buff Renegade (however, it might need a rework instead, aoe based specs are very problematic), buff Herald a little bit and just one thing for Vindicator, please make the heals 20s, the spec plays the same way Herald does (meaning same role) because its re-sustain is bad (very different from active damage mitigation), which means you play it to just jump on people all day, thief playstyle but with less teleports, less/no superspeed and no stealth. In contrast to WvW, where Power Vindicator and even Herald still feel great and smooth.

(I dont even want to mention Celestial builds, nothing should be balanced around that, one of the worst things about this game. Even though it benefits Renegade a lot and for some reason people still run cele Renegade instead of cele Vind with sb, I guess it's not as friendly.)

Because they for sure aren't going to nerf every other class and their specs out of nowhere.
🟦
Another thing, I believe it was also Shagie who said this, correct me if I'm wrong.
I do think that it would be healthier for the game to make shortbow exclusively a condi weapon. And hammer for power.

After trying sb for the first time since Soto I just couldnt believe it, it's way better at most situations than hammer, so fun and useful. I can actually play the game now without having to step on one of the 7 puddles of vomit and CC all over the floor in order to deal meaningful damage.

But before you do, please, please revert Coalescence of Ruin to its pre-October 2019 state, where the closer the target was to the revenant, the lower the damage, it was such a clever design, why the hell did they change it?
That needs to happen at the very least, however I doubt it would be enough, the weapon is still way too slow against competent players. Opposite to sb, which allows you to reliably CC players at x5 the speed of hammer, good zoning with sb 4 and great burst with Sevenshot.
Phase Smash is very cool, don't touch it.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[arazoth.7290]

For renegade to become better, the elite stance needs a rework buff. Like Herald and Vindicator elite stance are normally always used because they work well and bring the elite specialisation well out. This isn't with kalla going on atm.

I will present a few suggestions here: 

• traits: I don't want to change something drastically here before the kalla elite stance gets fixed.

The only change for CORE renegade shortbow skill 3 => Give it a stationary 0,5 second dodge because of the low cd it is a shorter dodge duration.

•Kalla stance:

* Make the kalla summons unhittable/ not cc able, let it function like wells !

* Breakrazor's Bastion (heal) => Increase the self instant heal high enough like other heals for self sustain !

The pulsing heal should become only outgoing for allies and because you don't gain self profit from outgoing, increase the outgoing pulsing heal.

* Razorclaw's rage => Currently it pulses 10 times/1second and the buff doesn't stack.

I would advice to let it pulse 10 times/0,5second and the buff should stack with a 5 seconds duration staying active to use it.

* Darkrazor's Daring => 1 second stability changes to 3 seconds stability.

*Icerazor's Ire => this shouldn't hit enemies individual/pulse. Eveyone in the aoe should get hit at the same time/pulse.!!!

Make it do instead reduced damage/pulse, like greatsword 5 mechanic. The damage reduced/pulse is different then greatsword 5 because it has more pulses, more graduatly.

*Soulcleaves Summit => After the upkeep give it a 2nd ability on 5 second short cd. This 2nd ability would be an aoe drain life cleave on the amount of times upkeep was used by everyone at max x cap range. You would aoe life steal and everyone inside it benefits.

[Buran.3796]

12 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

(I dont even want to mention Celestial builds, nothing should be balanced around that, one of the worst things about this game. Even though it benefits Renegade a lot and for some reason people still run cele Renegade instead of cele Vind with sb, I guess it's not as friendly.)


I do think that it would be healthier for the game to make shortbow exclusively a condi weapon. And hammer for power.

   Celestial is funny because was deleted from PvP due was operpowered, while at the same time in PvP we have Rune of the Lynx which is essentially a better optimized  version of the Rune of Surging we have instead in PvE. I already spent over 50 gold coins and thousands of tokens replacing Fireworks with Surging, and so far rune variety in PvE has been reduced to:

* You run power: Dragonhunter runes (unless you need precission then is Scholar, Eagle or Ranger but at that point better just to reroll to a class with crit cap you loser!).

*You run condi: Trapper runes (unless you rely mostly in a single condi source so then is Balthazar, Tormenting, Krait, Perplexity... )

   ...So much variety. At least before some runes have niche use; now niche means support builds with Water or Monk...

 

   Related to the short bow reworked as a condition only weapon, just no! Hammer is a garbage weapon with almost no use in the whole game; is slow, is clunky, is bugy, lacks impact and is not even particulary fun to use. Short bow is the only decent way to play as a ranged Revenant in the game and there's plenty of events in which being mele only sucks so don't touch sb versatility. In fact, as was said more than once, whole class will benefit is as happens with the shortbow or the trident the weapon skills would work with any stat and even mute based on your legend of choice.