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Samarog is a type of Forgotten? (spoilers)


Ogwom.7940

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Hi all, what do you guys think?

I've been curious as we've seen art of Forgotten in gw1 that some different anatomy than the living ones in GW1. Does this suggest that their could be multiple types of Forgotten?

 

Samarog shares a long pointed chin, similar reptilian type head, dental anatomy, and four arms as the Forgotten statues in GW2

This may be a coincidence, but all the statues of Forgotten that I've seen in game, are them holding spears. Samarog wielded spears with the "Eye of Janthir(?)" mark on them. A little off topic, but I've seen Kryptis that are weilding these same spears that Samarog weilded. Maybe that is just relation to how Mabon suggested that the Mursaat are originally from Nayos, the Realm of Dreams?

 

What do you all think?

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12 hours ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

I've been curious as we've seen art of Forgotten in gw1 that some different anatomy than the living ones in GW1. Does this suggest that their could be multiple types of Forgotten?

You're referring to the Kuunavang-looking elongated snake concept art put into the game, I assume?

The only real difference is that it has actual wings and a longer body tbh, a very stylized depiction of the Forgotten anatomy. If you were told "the Forgottten are a race of large snakes with webbing between arms", depicting them as winged serpents isn't a far fetched notion.

Unlike Samarog which has an entirely different vertebrae design, completely different skull structure (e.g., horns where Forgotten have none, and while arguably reptilian-ish jawline not serpentine at all), and additional limbs with nothing suggesting crawling on its belly (due to four legs).

So I find it very unlikely. The only similarity is an apparent interest in spears... And Samarog's spears, and the ones held by a few Kryptis, are Mursaat related - not Forgotten related.

Spoiler

There's also two points of lore that suggest mursaat originate from Nayos, the Kryptis realm, and may even have a colony living there again.

Samarog does seem to have some connection to the Mists, however, given Isgarren's commentary on Samarog's little statue in Tower of Secrets: "Samarog was not our mistake to fix" or something along those lines.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Comments made by ArenaNet regarding designs for wing 4 were that Samarog was made to look like she "came from the same place" as Deimos (or vice versa). So she's probably just another form of unique Kryptis, possibly a close associate of Deimos.

I don't recall any such comments and there's a lack of it on the wiki. The wiki only says:

Samarog's race, while appearing demonic, has been deliberately left ambiguous for the playerbase to speculate on.

Which implies that he (not she - Samarog is repeatedly called male throughout the raid and by the developers) is not a Kryptis. The dev comment of this being:

I always wanted Samarog to sound bestial and not have dialog, and since the encounter was always designed to have two summoned NPCs in there we (Byron and I) decided to put the narrative bits on them, as well as in the optional discoverables. I just think it feels better to not over-explain certain things and give people room to fill in the blanks.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/5u9gw9/comment/ddtrqzc/

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Pretty sure it was stated in a blogpost, video, or interview, not on Reddit. Keep in mind that Deimos' origin was also unknown at the time - heck, they even left it ambiguous as to whether Deimos was even a real creature or just part of Saul's torture.

We both know that the wiki didn't capture everything that was ever said.

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As another data point: Avatars of Rage pretty much look and act like mini-Samarogs, although the head is quite different.

Now, there's certainly enough asset reuse in SotO that this isn't necessarily conclusive on its own. It is a very distinctive model and animation set to use if they considered Samarog to be something completely different, though.

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8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As another data point: Avatars of Rage pretty much look and act like mini-Samarogs, although the head is quite different.

Now, there's certainly enough asset reuse in SotO that this isn't necessarily conclusive on its own. It is a very distinctive model and animation set to use if they considered Samarog to be something completely different, though.

TBH I wouldn't use the Rage kryptis as a link, but the fact the headless raptor riding ones (I noticed they got an eye in the chest lol) when mounted or on foot use the exact same type of spear as Samarog uses personally and that he impaled all over the Bastion is a strong link.

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13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As another data point: Avatars of Rage pretty much look and act like mini-Samarogs, although the head is quite different.

Now, there's certainly enough asset reuse in SotO that this isn't necessarily conclusive on its own. It is a very distinctive model and animation set to use if they considered Samarog to be something completely different, though.

More than just the head. Instead of holding spears like Samarog, the Rage kryptis enemies have pincer appendages instead. They're also fragmented body parts like most non-House kryptis. This I am more inclined to label as ANet reusing some of the most unique rigging in the game prior to SotO (both this and the surfer forged's rigging were only used once prior, and were possibly the most unique non-world boss riggings in the game).

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

TBH I wouldn't use the Rage kryptis as a link, but the fact the headless raptor riding ones (I noticed they got an eye in the chest lol) when mounted or on foot use the exact same type of spear as Samarog uses personally and that he impaled all over the Bastion is a strong link.

Well those spears use a stylized Eye of Janthir, so I think this is more a link in favor of towards the mursaat, which has two dialogues already claiming they come from Nayos.

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There is a statue of Samarog in the tower, next to the statue of Deimos. Isgarren wrote a commentary for the statue, however he does not adress the race of Samarog in it.

Among other statues, he comments Slothasor as an magical mutation. Samarog was over the years very compellingly also exposed to some unusual magics, so there is a possibility they could have somehow mutate as well, which could further shroud the origin. 

As long as we don´t encounter another similarly looking being, or until Kryptis announce Samarog as one of them, everything is just a wild speculation. As was, in the end, intended by the writters.

Edited by Lord Korag.8439
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6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

More than just the head. Instead of holding spears like Samarog, the Rage kryptis enemies have pincer appendages instead. They're also fragmented body parts like most non-House kryptis. This I am more inclined to label as ANet reusing some of the most unique rigging in the game prior to SotO (both this and the surfer forged's rigging were only used once prior, and were possibly the most unique non-world boss riggings in the game).

Well those spears use a stylized Eye of Janthir, so I think this is more a link in favor of towards the mursaat, which has two dialogues already claiming they come from Nayos.

I had a close look at one during the Mabon instance (where there are some Kryptis that are yellow instead of immediately hostile) and up close it does look like they have weapons rather than pincer appendages, although obviously not the same as Samarog uses. The fragmented body parts is also something which is common with lesser Kryptis, but higher Kryptis such as Cerus, Deimos, and Peitha don't have that fragmentation. So it's plausible that Samarog is essentially the 'highest form' of the Rage body plan.

Yes, I said myself it could just be asset reuse. Samarog is still almost certainly a demon of some kind, however (unlike the 'surfer' Forged, which are constructs with human souls, and one of the most annoying things that wasn't introduced in HoT), so a connection is still more plausible.

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On 9/7/2023 at 2:01 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

More than just the head. Instead of holding spears like Samarog, the Rage kryptis enemies have pincer appendages instead. They're also fragmented body parts like most non-House kryptis. This I am more inclined to label as ANet reusing some of the most unique rigging in the game prior to SotO (both this and the surfer forged's rigging were only used once prior, and were possibly the most unique non-world boss riggings in the game).

Well those spears use a stylized Eye of Janthir, so I think this is more a link in favor of towards the mursaat, which has two dialogues already claiming they come from Nayos.

Out of curiosity, what are the two dialogue options that claim the Mursaat come from Nayos?

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On 9/3/2023 at 2:23 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You're referring to the Kuunavang-looking elongated snake concept art put into the game, I assume?

The only real difference is that it has actual wings and a longer body tbh, a very stylized depiction of the Forgotten anatomy. If you were told "the Forgottten are a race of large snakes with webbing between arms", depicting them as winged serpents isn't a far fetched notion.

Unlike Samarog which has an entirely different vertebrae design, completely different skull structure (e.g., horns where Forgotten have none, and while arguably reptilian-ish jawline not serpentine at all), and additional limbs with nothing suggesting crawling on its belly (due to four legs).

So I find it very unlikely. The only similarity is an apparent interest in spears... And Samarog's spears, and the ones held by a few Kryptis, are Mursaat related - not Forgotten related.

  Reveal hidden contents

There's also two points of lore that suggest mursaat originate from Nayos, the Kryptis realm, and may even have a colony living there again.

Samarog does seem to have some connection to the Mists, however, given Isgarren's commentary on Samarog's little statue in Tower of Secrets: "Samarog was not our mistake to fix" or something along those lines.

I honestly also believe my theory is unlikely, but I just am on the hope train that we could get more interesting bestiary lore on mysterious races of Tyria lol.

For the physical characteristics, I don't entirely agree on the anatomy comparisons. The art of the Forgotten has no arms, and has a skull structure that is completely different than Forgotten in game.

Samarog's skull structure is literally quite similar to the Forgotten in GW2. The only difference is that he has ram like horns,  two legs, and is a bulkier.

We really don't know much about the Forgotten race or where they come from, so the possibility of different "types of Forgotten" is not impossible I feel. Even the name Forgotten isn't their given name, but rather that given by Humans in reference to how much we don't know about them due to a large span of time, further showing how mysterious they are.

I also wouldn't really say that the Forgotten have a skull that looks totally snake like. Even with the perspective that they are very snake like, snakes are squamates, meaning they are genetically a type of lizard.

Various snakes also all have different types of head shapes, and there are many also many paraphyletic colloquial lizards that have similarities to Snakes (mosasaurs, varanids, etc)

Nothing is always completely consistent with taxonomy. Another example could be different types of Salamanders who may have only 2 limbs, where as others have 4.  Then you have some Amphibians that don't have any legs, types that don't even have lungs, and others that exhibit neoteny. 

 

Just to touch on affiliation with Janthir, I was suggesting that perhaps if Samarog were to be a type of Forgotten species, his affiliation with Janthir could simply be from his imprisonment by the Mursaat, or that there is a faction of Forgotten that are affiliated with Mursaat.

 

Alternatively he could just be a demon, or some ancient race from Tyria, as most speculate.

I really wanted to know more from the Samarog statue that Isgarren wrote about lol. Do you think he was suggesting that Samarog was "created" by someone, or that he may have been "benevolent" before?

It is interesting that the Mursaat supposedly originate from Nayos (their homeland?). Would that make them Kryptis, or did they just settle there?

 

Lot's of thoughts in my head, but that's the fun in speculation.

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I think the issue with using the coatl-like artwork of a 'Forgotten' is that despite having a model (there was even a krait variant in GW1 that looked exactly like that), we've never seen a Forgotten like that in-game. Instead, they have a fairly consistent depiction of being four-armed serpents, with the GW1 version having a winglike membrane around the arms that is not present in the GW2 depiction.

The mural is probably the result of someone describing a Forgotten with the membrane as a 'winged serpent' and then someone who'd never seen one made art of the image that came to their mind. Similar to how some mythical creatures are believed to be misinterpreted accounts of existing animals.

With the Forgotten being morphologically fairly consistent, and nothing even similar to Samarog having been seen alongside anything associated with the Forgotten, I just can't see anything to back up the claim. Even if the mural was an accurate depiction of some rare variety of a Forgotten, it's a bit of a stretch to go from 'four-armed serpent, four-armed serpent with a winglike membrane, and serpent with feathered wings' to a massive horned centauroid body plan that I'm not even convinced is reptilian, let along serpentine.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think the issue with using the coatl-like artwork of a 'Forgotten' is that despite having a model (there was even a krait variant in GW1 that looked exactly like that), we've never seen a Forgotten like that in-game. Instead, they have a fairly consistent depiction of being four-armed serpents, with the GW1 version having a winglike membrane around the arms that is not present in the GW2 depiction.

The mural is probably the result of someone describing a Forgotten with the membrane as a 'winged serpent' and then someone who'd never seen one made art of the image that came to their mind. Similar to how some mythical creatures are believed to be misinterpreted accounts of existing animals.

With the Forgotten being morphologically fairly consistent, and nothing even similar to Samarog having been seen alongside anything associated with the Forgotten, I just can't see anything to back up the claim. Even if the mural was an accurate depiction of some rare variety of a Forgotten, it's a bit of a stretch to go from 'four-armed serpent, four-armed serpent with a winglike membrane, and serpent with feathered wings' to a massive horned centauroid body plan that I'm not even convinced is reptilian, let along serpentine.

I defiantly agree that design in Guild Wars is not consistent, which is why I suggested this theory. Like as you say with the Krait, Skelk, Gargoyles, and much more. 

I am not even advocating that Samarog is the same type of Forgotten that we see in GW1. I am suggesting that perhaps they are a type of "Forgotten", meaning that they are a closely related species form the same realm.

There is no exact plan or consistency in biology. The anatomy of Samarog does have differences, such as a bulkier body, and two hind legs. Though it also has interesting similar characteristics as well (skull shape, dental structure, reptilian, 4 arms). Snakes in real life used to have legs, as they are squamates. Some have very small vestigial legs as well. 

In our world there are examples of this non consistency; Mosasaurs are the (supposed) known closest relatives of snakes. They had a bulky bodies, fins, and were absolutely massive compared to most snakes.

Another example of this are whales. Whales are a type of ungulate, which is a "hooved" animal such as hippos, horses, deer, moose, cows, goats, and so on. Yet they have fins, are the largest animals on this planet, and their body shape doesn't look anything like that of a horse.

 

I know I am having copium lol, but I really want Arenanet to nerd out on different species, and possible taxonomic relations between certain ones.

Of course, this is a fantasy universe. They don't have to follow our world's action of evolution and how we classify things, nor are they limited to using such things.

Who knows, maybe Samarog is a fusion of some demon and a Forgotten, kind of like the Legendary Imbued Shaman (maybe he turned into a destroyer)  in the volcanic fractal, or Ensolyss. I ponder this sinceI think it was Isgarren who wrote that Samarog was a "mistake" that wasn't his to fix... or something like that.

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13 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

With the Forgotten being morphologically fairly consistent [...]

6 minutes ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

I defiantly agree that design in Guild Wars is not consistent, [...]

I'm not the only one confused with the response here, right?

While some species did get some major makeovers, the branded Forgotten are pretty much on point to the design of GW1 Forgotten - their differences extend only to higher polygon count, really. Much like centaurs or, well, humans.

This does not at all appear to be a case of the hydra repeating itself.

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11 hours ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

There is no exact plan or consistency in biology. The anatomy of Samarog does have differences, such as a bulkier body, and two hind legs. Though it also has interesting similar characteristics as well (skull shape, dental structure, reptilian, 4 arms). Snakes in real life used to have legs, as they are squamates. Some have very small vestigial legs as well. 

Is Samarog reptilian, though? If you look at one of the close-ups of the face, the hide looks more mammalian. There are scales around the ankles, but the feet overall look more bird- or dinosaur-like, so based on that feature, not a squamate. The legs are also structured pretty close to straight down from the body rather than extending out to the side and then down from the knee like most non-archosaur reptiles, so again, not a squamate. The general body shape really comes across as being more like a dragon except with arms instead of wings.

Truth is, Samarog is probably more likely to be the typical demonic form of having an amalgam of features from different species, classes, or even phyla. 

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On 9/10/2023 at 4:55 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I'm not the only one confused with the response here, right?

While some species did get some major makeovers, the branded Forgotten are pretty much on point to the design of GW1 Forgotten - their differences extend only to higher polygon count, really. Much like centaurs or, well, humans.

This does not at all appear to be a case of the hydra repeating itself.

There is no rule to say that everything must or must not follow the design form the original game. 

If they want to make Samarog a type of species of Forgotten and the winged, armless Forgotten in GW1 murals as another type, then they  could do so easily if they wanted to.  Or they don't have to. There is nothing in the current cannon lore that would contradict this if they went through with what I theorized.

 

Also, I am not saying the Forgotten from GW1 are totally different than the ones in GW2. They look pretty much the same, other than the webbing between their arms. I am suggesting different species of Forgotten other than the Forgotten that we know of currently on Tyria. We don't know much about the ones we see in game. They are mysterious and forgotten creatures.

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25 minutes ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

There is no rule to say that everything must or must not follow the design form the original game. 

If they want to make Samarog a type of species of Forgotten and the winged, armless Forgotten in GW1 murals as another type, then they  could do so easily if they wanted to.  Or they don't have to. There is nothing in the current cannon lore that would contradict this if they went through with what I theorized.

 

Also, I am not saying the Forgotten from GW1 are totally different than the ones in GW2. They look pretty much the same, other than the webbing between their arms. I am suggesting different species of Forgotten other than the Forgotten that we know of currently on Tyria. We don't know much about the ones we see in game. They are mysterious and forgotten creatures.

Never said there is such a rule but... there rather IS such a rule. Because they already put the Forgotten design into the game in GW2 which follows the design from the original game.

If they wanted to redesign the Forgotten to be vastly different and closer to Samarog... well, Samarog was added to the game before the Forgotten were, so they would have redesigned the Branded Forgotten and Forgotten statues that were added with Path of Fire to look more like Samarog.

They had their chance to diverge and they didn't use it; the moment you throw out consistency within the same piece of media is when you throw away all credibility you've built up. The Forgotten are not krait, they do not have metamorphological capabilities and their one, primary, core defining feature is snake people, and Samarog is not snake-like even if he holds reptilian features.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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On 9/11/2023 at 4:20 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Is Samarog reptilian, though? If you look at one of the close-ups of the face, the hide looks more mammalian. There are scales around the ankles, but the feet overall look more bird- or dinosaur-like, so based on that feature, not a squamate. The legs are also structured pretty close to straight down from the body rather than extending out to the side and then down from the knee like most non-archosaur reptiles, so again, not a squamate. The general body shape really comes across as being more like a dragon except with arms instead of wings.

Truth is, Samarog is probably more likely to be the typical demonic form of having an amalgam of features from different species, classes, or even phyla. 

It is fantasy, and just like with dragons and other mythical creatures that can appear either mammalian or reptilian, why couldn't the same be said for Forgotten? Saltsprays, Glint, Elder Dragons really don't look that much like each other that much morphologically speaking. Yet they are all considered various types of draconic species that are related. Same thing with drakes and wyverns.

 

Birds are technically reptiles, but they don't have "reptile" like skin. Birds are also dinosaurs, specifically a type of theropod dinosaur like Tyrannosaurs and such. This just shows how there is no absolute in taxonomy.

As with my previous example, Mosasaurs are the closest known relatives of snakes, yet they look nothing like a snake. Even look at Monotremes as another example. Or B ichirs vs Lungfish vs Salamanders that all have external gills in youth and neoteny, and neither are "super" closely related to each other.

 

The Forgotten that we know in game don't have a head structure like most snakes, they don't have 4  human (mammal) arms and hands, they don't have a human torso, they don't have a carapace on their back (like seen in GW2), nor do they have webbing between their vestigial limbs.

I think you are arguing polyphyletic traits to say it is not possible for Samarog to be a type of Forgotten. All I am saying is that it is possible that they could be related. But ho knows what ANet will decide Samarog to be. I agree that it could very easily be a demon, or even something created by someone.

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8 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Never said there is such a rule but... there rather IS such a rule. Because they already put the Forgotten design into the game in GW2 which follows the design from the original game.

If they wanted to redesign the Forgotten to be vastly different and closer to Samarog... well, Samarog was added to the game before the Forgotten were, so they would have redesigned the Branded Forgotten and Forgotten statues that were added with Path of Fire to look more like Samarog.

They had their chance to diverge and they didn't use it; the moment you throw out consistency within the same piece of media is when you throw away all credibility you've built up. The Forgotten are not krait, they do not have metamorphological capabilities and their one, primary, core defining feature is snake people, and Samarog is not snake-like even if he holds reptilian features.

I never said, nor was I ever suggesting that Samarog was the same exact species as the Forgotten in GW1. Nor did I say they are krait. I am suggesting that they could be a closely related species. Just like how whales are ungulates, yet don't look very much like other ungulates. Why couldn't ANet make Samarog a type of Forgotten?

"Forgotten" isn't their actual name, that was a description given by Tyrians. So what I am trying to say is that I am hypothetically using "Forgotten" the same way we use "Bird" to refer to all avian dinosaurs. It doesn't mean that all species of bird are called "bird".

Your argument on them only being "snake" people is that from a Tyrian perspective. You and I don't know much about the Forgotten other than they come from the mists, they have a snake/eel/caecilian type body combined with that of mammal. In the first game they had webbing between their limbs, now they have a carapace on their backs. I would say that is a redesign, albeit small.

 

I don't fully agree with your credibility argument. They have done this multiple times with regards to consistency and the game is still strong. It is the same thing as when people said that they had all their chance to not release Elona, Cantha, Mursaat, Seers, and so on as well, so it would never happen. Yet here we are with all of those things.

 

Would you say birds are reptile like? Would you say tunicates look like chordates like you and I? Do whales look deer like?

 

It is a fantasy universe, so they could really go in so many places with what Samarog could be. I would be happy either way, I am just excited that we finally get to see more stuff on Samarog lol

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13 hours ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

"Forgotten" isn't their actual name, that was a description given by Tyrians. So what I am trying to say is that I am hypothetically using "Forgotten" the same way we use "Bird" to refer to all avian dinosaurs. It doesn't mean that all species of bird are called "bird".

That would be fundamentally wrong because "Forgotten" specifically refers to the snake-people with four arms with webbing between them, the servants of the Six Gods, who allied with Glint after purifier her, and moved to the Crystal Desert.

It is not the equivalent of "mammal", it is the equivalent of "human", a species, or at most deviation, a nationality - though the way it is used by everyone, even the ancient races who by all account should kitten well know the Forgotten's true name (such as Isgarren and Mabon, who lived with one since the previous dragonrise), as the name of the species and not a nationality let alone biological class classification.

13 hours ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

Your argument on them only being "snake" people is that from a Tyrian perspective. You and I don't know much about the Forgotten other than they come from the mists, they have a snake/eel/caecilian type body combined with that of mammal. In the first game they had webbing between their limbs, now they have a carapace on their backs. I would say that is a redesign, albeit small.

No, my argument on them being snake people is by their functional biological appearance we witness in-game - in both games - as well as both human and their own mentions.

Plus all the ssssnake puns that happen in their names, like Dassk Arossyss or Vassa Ssiss. Thank goodness they didn't talk with their ssnakey ssess-ss-s-s-s.

13 hours ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

I don't fully agree with your credibility argument. They have done this multiple times with regards to consistency and the game is still strong. It is the same thing as when people said that they had all their chance to not release Elona, Cantha, Mursaat, Seers, and so on as well, so it would never happen. Yet here we are with all of those things.

They have not done it once though?

Designs may have changed between GW1 and GW2, but a design in GW2 remained consistent. And no, it isn't the same when people said they wouldn't release Elona, Cantha, Mursaat, or Seers - because this isn't about will they won't they release Forgotten. BECAUSE THEY DID RELEASE FORGOTTEN. And like the Mursaat, like the Seers, their GW2 models match their GW1 models pretty kitten closely. I don't even comprehend what point you're trying to make here because it's so vastly unrelated to what I said.

13 hours ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

It is a fantasy universe, so they could really go in so many places with what Samarog could be. I would be happy either way, I am just excited that we finally get to see more stuff on Samarog lol

I agree, they could go in so many places with what Samarog is.

But they can't go anywhere, and "is a Forgotten" is one of those places they cannot go. Because the term Forgotten specifically refers to the species and culture of the snake-people servants of the Six Gods who went into exile and was forgotten by human records after doing so. In the same way that Samarog cannot be a hydra or mursaat or dwarf or jotun. In the same way a deer does not look like a whale.

(How they remain forgotten by every record is beyond me and logic though.)

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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17 hours ago, Ogwom.7940 said:

If they want to make Samarog a type of species of Forgotten and the winged, armless Forgotten in GW1 murals as another type, then they  could do so easily if they wanted to.  Or they don't have to. There is nothing in the current cannon lore that would contradict this if they went through with what I theorized.

By this argument, Samarog could be anything from a djinn in a flesh suit to a shell-less kappa.

There is no support for your contention, and, in fact, everything we do know about the Forgotten leans against your contention. You can headcanon all you want, but if your only argument is "Samarog has some vaguely reptilian features" and "YOU CAN'T ABSOLUTELY ONE HUNDRED AND TEN PERCENT PROVE I'M WRONG", you do not have a credible theory.

Even if we WERE to accept that the Forgotten were morphologically variable to the point where they could spontaneously grow an extra pair of limbs, horns, and a range of other non-serpentine features not observed on Forgotten, in addition to being an entity who's power is based on physical force while the Forgotten were exclusively spellcasters, there are thousands of other things Samarog could be if your standard for evidence is that low, and quite a few things that are far more credible (noble Kryptiss based on the Avatar of Rage model, mutant dragon with arms instead of wings, a variant Lupicus, and probably much more that I could find if I cared to look). 

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11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

By this argument, Samarog could be anything from a djinn in a flesh suit to a shell-less kappa.

There is no support for your contention, and, in fact, everything we do know about the Forgotten leans against your contention. You can headcanon all you want, but if your only argument is "Samarog has some vaguely reptilian features" and "YOU CAN'T ABSOLUTELY ONE HUNDRED AND TEN PERCENT PROVE I'M WRONG", you do not have a credible theory.

Even if we WERE to accept that the Forgotten were morphologically variable to the point where they could spontaneously grow an extra pair of limbs, horns, and a range of other non-serpentine features not observed on Forgotten, in addition to being an entity who's power is based on physical force while the Forgotten were exclusively spellcasters, there are thousands of other things Samarog could be if your standard for evidence is that low, and quite a few things that are far more credible (noble Kryptiss based on the Avatar of Rage model, mutant dragon with arms instead of wings, a variant Lupicus, and probably much more that I could find if I cared to look). 

No, because djinn are obviously not even close to resembling Samarog. They are made of fire, rock, and so on. 

There is nothing that I said that goes against Samarog having the possibility of being a type of species related to Forgotten. 

 

I don't see why you guys are so against the idea, when there is literally more proof to suggest that he could be rather than the contrary. Why is my theory not credible? Why is your suggestion that the possibility of Forgotten to have various related species can never occur? All I was saying that it could be possible .  

What is the proof that says the chance for this possibility is non existent???

 

I never said that Forgotten would grow an extra pair of limbs. That would make no sense if we were applying our world's perspective on how they evolve, and none of this would be "spontaneous". Perhaps they did have 3 pairs of legs, and lost a pair over time. Maybe the need for horns went away. Maybe Samarog species were a more primitive type of creature related to Forgotten. Who knows. You don't and I don't. I am just saying it is interesting on where it will go. Because it is possible. Evolution can go so many ways. I gave you so many examples, but it is disheartening that no one ever addresses those examples I provided.

And you right about those examples. I really like your dragon theory. Who knows what Samarog will end up being. It is fun to think about.

 

It hurts that you say my standard of evidence is low. I was just trying to be fun and apply our world's perspective of evolution to Tyria. I get the feeling that you may believe that I think my theory is likely. I honestly don't think it's likely, and I even admitted earlier.

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