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The lies of the Five Human Gods


Malus.2184

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The human gods have hyped themselves up to be immeasurably strong and I doubt that. The reason I doubt it is one of the stories they have that show them as immensely powerful. The burning of the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert when they fought Abbadon. This course of events is plain impossible if they hold themselves on the near power level of the Elder Dragons.

- The Elon River is supposedly the remains of the Crystal Sea and that's connected to the Unending Ocean meaning that if the gods had burned away the sea there the ground would had been below water level and water from the Unending Ocean would have covered the ground again.

- Tyria is a globe, evidenced by the day/night cycle being somewhat equal in Cantha which is only possible if Cantha is on the equator.

- The only way this could be true was if the battle of the gods had burned away roughly five meters of the global water level else the vacuum created in Elona when the sea evaporated would have been filled by the rest of the ocean and I think someone would have noticed if their coastline suddenly moved. Continuous burning would have required a lot of energy. Just look at all the water in the Unending Ocean and that's only 1/4th of the total landmass.

- And if no one else had noted it Isgarren would have and he only got really wary of the gods after the Elona Fractal.

- If they had been able to expand that kind of power then defeating the Elder Dragons would have been a cakewalk.

- The Dwarved never noted anything that can be chalked down to isolationism.

- The other option is that the gods raised the landmass from under the sea, which would have created massive earthquakes and the Dwarves would most definitely note that down as it would be near cataclysmic.

- Then there's the soil itself. If it had been uncovered from the sea then the saline levels would have been insane, and the game have confirmed via fishing that the Unending Ocean and every connected body is saltwater.

- I've no doubt that the battle between the gods inflicted enormous damage on the Crystal Desert when they fought and it was nowhere near the cataclysmic levels that Kormir describes. 

- What the gods did have was a goddess who could manifest a fake reality in peoples' heads and one who could create natural "leftovers" from such an event. Lyssa made people believe it happened and Dwayna created bones that could be seen as evidence, long-lasting bones that would last until disposed of. The thing that went wrong was that in Desert Highland they were never disposed of. There's no other reason that magical protection would conserve the bones over centuries in an area where they were subject to heavy exposure. They would have eroded to dust by the time we came around.

- For what reason would they do this? It would create an image of never pissing off the gods. It would be invaluable PR as it would really hype them up.

Then there's also Balthazar himself

- The gods were pure energy as evidenced by Balthazar's end. He never died we just weakened him enough that Kralk could absorb him.

- There's also the way he phrased things. He absorbed the Bloodstone to restore his power instead of only restoring some of it, and there are ways to further replenish magic, Zhaitan employed it.

What if the power level of Balthazar when we fought him was roughly the power level of the gods when they were on Tyria and disconnected from the Mist?

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It seems you're misunderstanding one key element.

The Gods did not "burn away" the sea. According to the legends pre-Abaddon, the gods "rose the land". Completely different actions. To quote the Prophecies manual: These legends claim that it was the gods who raised the land, leaving it bare and empty in order to give the solitary creatures of the world a place to call their own. With Nightfall, the truth came out: When the gods struck down Abaddon, this is what shifted the sea floor of the Crystal Sea, raising it up above the water level - this is why the Mouth of Torment, where Abaddon was struck down, is a literal crater (if Joko had dammed the Elon River a little to the south, the Desolation should have become an in-land sea, which the devs clearly thought about given that it is an inland sea in this world map - sadly, and I blame the hate of underwater combat for this, Anet did not follow through with this design when making Path of Fire).

It should also be noted that not all of the desert was a sea originally - as there are two references to the Crystal Desert existing prior to the Exodus. However, the extent of this original desert is unclear, and we know that the sea reached to Desert Highlands.

This pretty much debunks your entire argument.

Gonna address your other points one by one:

  1. As mentioned, the Elon River was dammed and redirected by Joko to flow into the Crystal Desert, specifically this happened 60 years post-GW1. Which is why there is no Elon River in the GW1 map. It is not the remains of the Crystal Sea at all, but originally flowed from Dzalana to Kourna.
  2. Based on the world map and the in-game globes, Cantha is firmly within the southern hemisphere, and the equator actually passes through Istan / Kourna. I wouldn't take game mechanics as an indication of lore, tbh. Tyria's day/night cycle runs on 24 hours, not 2, for one. Same goes for distances.
  3. See above. They didn't "burn away" anything.
  4. Isgarren was actually wary the Six Gods since they were physically on the planet. I don't think an exact timeframe is given, but he was already distrustful of them long before Nightfall happened - see the second entry in this wiki page, but didn't see them as an active threat (not sure if he still does). According to this lore book, it's implied that if Isgarren had his way, the Forgotten, Humans, and Six Gods would have never been on the planet.
  5. The issue the Six Gods held with fighting the Elder Dragons was that it was a no-win scenario. Not because they didn't believe they could beat the Elder Dragons, but because they knew that if they did kill the Elder Dragons, then Tyria would still be destroyed because of The All's imbalance. It isn't clear if they knew about the Void or if they were working on the same level of (ultimately false) knowledge that the Forgotten (and by extension, Glint, Exalted, and Taimi) were working on that killing too many destabilizes the magic system that the planet's ecosystem thrives on. Basically the outcome they saw was either: the Elder Dragons manage to win and thus become even more powerful thus becoming unbeatable for anyone; or the Six Gods manage to win and Tyria is destroyed by magical imbalance anyways. It was a no-win scenario if a conflict happened so they decided that the best option was to ensure there could be no conflict.
  6. Not sure what you're saying here - that the dwarves never noticed any "burning away"? We don't have the full history of Deldrimor and even if we did, they'd just say the same things human legends say: that the gods rose the land for the Forgotten to call home (a false narrative, as revealed in Nightfall, but the narrative humans held until then).
  7. I mean. the event happened in Elona, and yes, it did cause pretty catastrophic situations. It turned a verdant land into the Desolation. This is why the gods decided personal conflicts are not a good thing. And again, we don't have ANY dwarven history besides a few scraps of random tidbits, and any note of cataclysm from the dwarven PoV would be the same as from human PoV.
  8. Indeed, the saline levels are insane. Which is why the land is barren, and is - per Prophecies lore - literally tiny crystals rather than actual sand. You're walking on... salt flats. There really isn't soil in most of the desert, and it only began to gain oasis after hundreds of years of rainfall and flushing out the salt from certain segments into the unending ocean - the Elon River being diverted helped a lot here. There is a reason why the numerous civilizations (Margonite survivors, Elonians, Seekers, and Ascalonians) attempting to live in the area failed.
  9. Kormir was indeed being quite a bit flamboyant in her retelling. The "sea boiled away" which might've sparked this massive confusion was in reference to the Scriptures of Abaddon. Specifically: An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void. This, however, was a single event and not what turned the sea into a desert.
  10. Why would the gods bother with this? That's a lot of work for nothing gained. Also, weird association - why would it be the goddess of life creating skeletons of Leviathans and Giganticus Lupicus, rather than say, the goddess of death? Exposure to the elements resulting in their decay is certainly a thing to consider but this is a work of fiction not real archeologists. So there's bound to be some "wait, this doesn't make sense with s c i e n c e" moments.
  11. For what purpose? The gods LEFT the planet at that time. And as proven by the events of Prophecies, people stopped believing in them and even actively worshiped other beings instead within centuries. Such a warning was pointless because it was never once enforced - this was the moment the gods stepped out of the picture.
55 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Then there's also Balthazar himself

- The gods were pure energy as evidenced by Balthazar's end. He never died we just weakened him enough that Kralk could absorb him.

- There's also the way he phrased things. He absorbed the Bloodstone to restore his power instead of only restoring some of it, and there are ways to further replenish magic, Zhaitan employed it.

What if the power level of Balthazar when we fought him was roughly the power level of the gods when they were on Tyria and disconnected from the Mist?

Divided because list was getting long...

  1. Balthazar, as repeatedly shown in the story, was not a god during GW2. At some point between GW1 and GW2, the Six Gods had an argument and stripped him of his powers. Kormir's speech you so directly referenced makes this clear point. Kormir states "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six." and "We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans." Balthazar was no god. Despite what many NPCs would state - he was a former god. Much like Dhuum. The power he unleashed came from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus.
  2. Balthazar was more than just pure energy - he was a shell of energy. Not sure how this diminishes the gods' power - Balthazar was a shell of miniscule energy and refilled his shell with Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag juice. But he still lacked the divine power of a god.
  3. Balthazar did restore only some of this power - this was why he went after Primordus immediately after. At no point did Balthazar claim he had returned to his full might.  Maybe you are confusing the moment he appears disguised as Lazarus and stated "I have returned from the brink of existence!" - which, need I make it clear, was an act.
  4. If Balthazar was on par to the gods, his presence would have blinded us, like when we were in front of Kormir. There is also another notable key difference between Kormir's strength and Balthazar's strength - when Balthazar's angry, he puffs up with some dainty little flames as he shouts. When Kormir's angry, the literal landscape shakes as she goes "how dare you". Easy to miss the falling rocks and night sky clouding up in her sanctum after the Commander suggested Kormir fight Balthazar, I'll admit.
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14 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It seems you're misunderstanding one key element.

The Gods did not "burn away" the sea. According to the legends pre-Abaddon, the gods "rose the land". Completely different actions. To quote the Prophecies manual: These legends claim that it was the gods who raised the land, leaving it bare and empty in order to give the solitary creatures of the world a place to call their own. With Nightfall, the truth came out: When the gods struck down Abaddon, this is what shifted the sea floor of the Crystal Sea, raising it up above the water level - this is why the Mouth of Torment, where Abaddon was struck down, is a literal crater (if Joko had dammed the Elon River a little to the south, the Desolation should have become an in-land sea, which the devs clearly thought about given that it is an inland sea in this world map - sadly, and I blame the hate of underwater combat for this, Anet did not follow through with this design when making Path of Fire).

It should also be noted that not all of the desert was a sea originally - as there are two references to the Crystal Desert existing prior to the Exodus. However, the extent of this original desert is unclear, and we know that the sea reached to Desert Highlands.

This pretty much debunks your entire argument.

Gonna address your other points one by one:

  1. As mentioned, the Elon River was dammed and redirected by Joko to flow into the Crystal Desert, specifically this happened 60 years post-GW1. Which is why there is no Elon River in the GW1 map. It is not the remains of the Crystal Sea at all, but originally flowed from Dzalana to Kourna.
  2. Based on the world map and the in-game globes, Cantha is firmly within the southern hemisphere, and the equator actually passes through Istan / Kourna. I wouldn't take game mechanics as an indication of lore, tbh. Tyria's day/night cycle runs on 24 hours, not 2, for one. Same goes for distances.
  3. See above. They didn't "burn away" anything.
  4. Isgarren was actually wary the Six Gods since they were physically on the planet. I don't think an exact timeframe is given, but he was already distrustful of them long before Nightfall happened - see the second entry in this wiki page, but didn't see them as an active threat (not sure if he still does). According to this lore book, it's implied that if Isgarren had his way, the Forgotten, Humans, and Six Gods would have never been on the planet.
  5. The issue the Six Gods held with fighting the Elder Dragons was that it was a no-win scenario. Not because they didn't believe they could beat the Elder Dragons, but because they knew that if they did kill the Elder Dragons, then Tyria would still be destroyed because of The All's imbalance. It isn't clear if they knew about the Void or if they were working on the same level of (ultimately false) knowledge that the Forgotten (and by extension, Glint, Exalted, and Taimi) were working on that killing too many destabilizes the magic system that the planet's ecosystem thrives on. Basically the outcome they saw was either: the Elder Dragons manage to win and thus become even more powerful thus becoming unbeatable for anyone; or the Six Gods manage to win and Tyria is destroyed by magical imbalance anyways. It was a no-win scenario if a conflict happened so they decided that the best option was to ensure there could be no conflict.
  6. Not sure what you're saying here - that the dwarves never noticed any "burning away"? We don't have the full history of Deldrimor and even if we did, they'd just say the same things human legends say: that the gods rose the land for the Forgotten to call home (a false narrative, as revealed in Nightfall, but the narrative humans held until then).
  7. I mean. the event happened in Elona, and yes, it did cause pretty catastrophic situations. It turned a verdant land into the Desolation. This is why the gods decided personal conflicts are not a good thing. And again, we don't have ANY dwarven history besides a few scraps of random tidbits, and any note of cataclysm from the dwarven PoV would be the same as from human PoV.
  8. Indeed, the saline levels are insane. Which is why the land is barren, and is - per Prophecies lore - literally tiny crystals rather than actual sand. You're walking on... salt flats. There really isn't soil in most of the desert, and it only began to gain oasis after hundreds of years of rainfall and flushing out the salt from certain segments into the unending ocean - the Elon River being diverted helped a lot here. There is a reason why the numerous civilizations (Margonite survivors, Elonians, Seekers, and Ascalonians) attempting to live in the area failed.
  9. Kormir was indeed being quite a bit flamboyant in her retelling. The "sea boiled away" which might've sparked this massive confusion was in reference to the Scriptures of Abaddon. Specifically: An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void. This, however, was a single event and not what turned the sea into a desert.
  10. Why would the gods bother with this? That's a lot of work for nothing gained. Also, weird association - why would it be the goddess of life creating skeletons of Leviathans and Giganticus Lupicus, rather than say, the goddess of death? Exposure to the elements resulting in their decay is certainly a thing to consider but this is a work of fiction not real archeologists. So there's bound to be some "wait, this doesn't make sense with s c i e n c e" moments.
  11. For what purpose? The gods LEFT the planet at that time. And as proven by the events of Prophecies, people stopped believing in them and even actively worshiped other beings instead within centuries. Such a warning was pointless because it was never once enforced - this was the moment the gods stepped out of the picture.

Divided because list was getting long...

  1. Balthazar, as repeatedly shown in the story, was not a god during GW2. At some point between GW1 and GW2, the Six Gods had an argument and stripped him of his powers. Kormir's speech you so directly referenced makes this clear point. Kormir states "No. He isn't. Balthazar has been stripped of his claim and title. He is no longer one of the Six." and "We stripped him of his power, and chained him in the Mists. There he would remain, forever—powerless to carry out his plans." Balthazar was no god. Despite what many NPCs would state - he was a former god. Much like Dhuum. The power he unleashed came from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Jormag, and Primordus.
  2. Balthazar was more than just pure energy - he was a shell of energy. Not sure how this diminishes the gods' power - Balthazar was a shell of miniscule energy and refilled his shell with Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag juice. But he still lacked the divine power of a god.
  3. Balthazar did restore only some of this power - this was why he went after Primordus immediately after. At no point did Balthazar claim he had returned to his full might.  Maybe you are confusing the moment he appears disguised as Lazarus and stated "I have returned from the brink of existence!" - which, need I make it clear, was an act.
  4. If Balthazar was on par to the gods, his presence would have blinded us, like when we were in front of Kormir. There is also another notable key difference between Kormir's strength and Balthazar's strength - when Balthazar's angry, he puffs up with some dainty little flames as he shouts. When Kormir's angry, the literal landscape shakes as she goes "how dare you". Easy to miss the falling rocks and night sky clouding up in her sanctum after the Commander suggested Kormir fight Balthazar, I'll admit.

Raising the land would be even worse as it would lead to catastrophic geological changes. There would have been massive earthquakes in the entire region, I even use that as a point, and the climate would have changed as the winds would have been redirected by the raised landmass. It's a trope in fantasy to have land raised without there being any consequences, that's insanely ignorant. Raising landmass, especially from the sea, has HUGE geological consequences, and Tyria despite being made from magic essence, does run on real physics, just look at the damage from Orr being risen from the bottom of the sea. It inflicted massive amounts of damage even all the way down to Cantha.

You go into the salinity of the soil and then use "barren desert" as an argument when there are lush areas right next to the desert WITHIN THE DESERT WHERE THE SEA WOULD HAVE BEEN. The prime example of this is the gorge that's probably below the sea level of Amnoon that's lush.

The objective facts are impossible to align with the subjective records as the physics are plain impossible and the physics have been confirmed to be real.

The Deldrimor Dwarves would have made records of this since the amount of massive earthquakes would have inflicted massive damage on their city. It would have been a pivotal point in their history that would be remembered forever as it would also affect the design of the buildings. It would be akin to the Japanese socio-cultural environment being completely unaffected by the earthquakes and tsunamis the country experiences and have experiences in the past that have had a huge effect on the direction of the society.

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3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

You go into the salinity of the soil and then use "barren desert" as an argument when there are lush areas right next to the desert WITHIN THE DESERT WHERE THE SEA WOULD HAVE BEEN. The prime example of this is the gorge that's probably below the sea level of Amnoon that's lush.

I'm fairly certain that even landscapes that have been salted have the ability to regrow over the course of 1,000 years.

 

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The Deldrimor Dwarves would have made records of this since the amount of massive earthquakes would have inflicted massive damage on their city. It would have been a pivotal point in their history that would be remembered forever as it would also affect the design of the buildings. It would be akin to the Japanese socio-cultural environment being completely unaffected by the earthquakes and tsunamis the country experiences and have experiences in the past that have had a huge effect on the direction of the society.

The closest that we know of that the Dwarves lived to the Crystal Desert was in the Shiverpeaks Mountains. There may have been dwarves in Ascalon as well, but we do not know for certain how many there were or if it was fully civilized. You have to remember that Tyria is really much larger than the game shows. It is mentioned to take a day to cross the Brand in a book, not 30 seconds. And the trip from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City was something like 5-6 days on foot. This means your situation is more like people in the middle of mainland China writing about an earthquake in Japan at best. Yes, it would likely have been felt, but likely nowhere near as devastating as you mention.

Edited by Narcemus.1348
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On 9/8/2023 at 1:03 PM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Citation Needed.

Citation for what? Just look at the world map. There's no way the area would have died out on its own unless desertification was already happening. I do believe that the fight between the gods would have accelerated this instead of creating it.

Edited by Malus.2184
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29 minutes ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

I'm fairly certain that even landscapes that have been salted have the ability to regrow over the course of 1,000 years.

 

The closest that we know of that the Dwarves lived to the Crystal Desert was in the Shiverpeaks Mountains. There may have been dwarves in Ascalon as well, but we do not know for certain how many there were or if it was fully civilized. You have to remember that Tyria is really much larger than the game shows. It is mentioned to take a day to cross the Brand in a book, not 30 seconds. And the trip from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City was something like 5-6 days on foot. This means your situation is more like people in the middle of mainland China writing about an earthquake in Japan at best. Yes, it would likely have been felt, but likely nowhere near as devastating as you mention.

Areas being salted are done by human hands and thus the salt will only be in the topsoil and erosion will remove it over time. In this case, the soil would have been marinating in the saltwater for centuries, and as such the salt in the soil would be much, much deeper. It would be a natural consequence of another action instead of a direct consequence of it. And Derelict Dvelve is literally an abandoned Dwarven city. That city would have been directly affected, even if we assume the area is larger than the map represents as we're talking earthquakes on a magnitude between 8 to 9 Richter. The area that the Palace of Aban is built on would have been utterly devastated as it's right next to the Transcendent Bay area which would have been the Transcendent Inlet before the fight.

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2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Citation for what? Just look at the world map. There's no way the area would have died out on its own unless desertification was already happening. I do believe that the fight between the gods w3ould have accelerated this instead of creating it.

It probably was. I'm pretty sure there are references to there being desert in the area well before the war of the gods. There might already have been a slow drainage happening, and boiling it off during the war just completed a process that might otherwise have taken centuries. Or part of the damage might have involved shifting or cutting off enough of the feeder rivers that it couldn't refill.

All it takes to resolve your discrepancy is for the Crystal Sea to have been at a higher altitude to sea level proper with a narrow enough outlet that it wouldn't empty immediately by natural means.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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7 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Raising the land would be even worse as it would lead to catastrophic geological changes. There would have been massive earthquakes in the entire region, I even use that as a point, and the climate would have changed as the winds would have been redirected by the raised landmass. It's a trope in fantasy to have land raised without there being any consequences, that's insanely ignorant. Raising landmass, especially from the sea, has HUGE geological consequences, and Tyria despite being made from magic essence, does run on real physics, just look at the damage from Orr being risen from the bottom of the sea. It inflicted massive amounts of damage even all the way down to Cantha.

You go into the salinity of the soil and then use "barren desert" as an argument when there are lush areas right next to the desert WITHIN THE DESERT WHERE THE SEA WOULD HAVE BEEN. The prime example of this is the gorge that's probably below the sea level of Amnoon that's lush.

The objective facts are impossible to align with the subjective records as the physics are plain impossible and the physics have been confirmed to be real.

The Deldrimor Dwarves would have made records of this since the amount of massive earthquakes would have inflicted massive damage on their city. It would have been a pivotal point in their history that would be remembered forever as it would also affect the design of the buildings. It would be akin to the Japanese socio-cultural environment being completely unaffected by the earthquakes and tsunamis the country experiences and have experiences in the past that have had a huge effect on the direction of the society.

We talk about extremely powerful MAGICAL beings here. 

Real life logic does not have to apply here. 

 

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4 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Areas being salted are done by human hands and thus the salt will only be in the topsoil and erosion will remove it over time. In this case, the soil would have been marinating in the saltwater for centuries, and as such the salt in the soil would be much, much deeper. It would be a natural consequence of another action instead of a direct consequence of it. And Derelict Dvelve is literally an abandoned Dwarven city. That city would have been directly affected, even if we assume the area is larger than the map represents as we're talking earthquakes on a magnitude between 8 to 9 Richter. The area that the Palace of Aban is built on would have been utterly devastated as it's right next to the Transcendent Bay area which would have been the Transcendent Inlet before the fight.

I'll admit, I forgot about the desert highlands dwarven city, though that city is still multiple hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away from the location of the epicenter of this event, the Desolation where Abaddon was thrown down, and still quite a ways away from the center of the desert itself. But that said what documents from that city do we have? Do we have the histories of the dwarven leadership? I mean great kings always have written histories of their work. Do we know what the city did? What they produced? How about what that mysterious otherworldly zone that the mini-dungeon leads to is? Do we know anything about that? We have next to no dwarven documentation. So how can we know that there wasn't a document about the earthquake that we never found? Even more, what if that earthquake is why that city is empty today?

And it has been proven again and again that nature will find a way. It has been 1,300 years since that sea became a desert. It doesn't take nearly that long for nature to start finding a way to make the most inhospitable places a location to live. As Konig pointed out there has been erosion through both wind and water over the course of that whole time to help change the salinity of the landscape.

All of that still doesn't explain the massive jump from "some of these things don't make sense" to *adjusts tin foil hat* "The Six aren't that powerful and made it all up!"

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8 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Raising the land would be even worse as it would lead to catastrophic geological changes. There would have been massive earthquakes in the entire region, I even use that as a point, and the climate would have changed as the winds would have been redirected by the raised landmass. It's a trope in fantasy to have land raised without there being any consequences, that's insanely ignorant. Raising landmass, especially from the sea, has HUGE geological consequences, and Tyria despite being made from magic essence, does run on real physics, just look at the damage from Orr being risen from the bottom of the sea. It inflicted massive amounts of damage even all the way down to Cantha.

You go into the salinity of the soil and then use "barren desert" as an argument when there are lush areas right next to the desert WITHIN THE DESERT WHERE THE SEA WOULD HAVE BEEN. The prime example of this is the gorge that's probably below the sea level of Amnoon that's lush.

The objective facts are impossible to align with the subjective records as the physics are plain impossible and the physics have been confirmed to be real.

The Deldrimor Dwarves would have made records of this since the amount of massive earthquakes would have inflicted massive damage on their city. It would have been a pivotal point in their history that would be remembered forever as it would also affect the design of the buildings. It would be akin to the Japanese socio-cultural environment being completely unaffected by the earthquakes and tsunamis the country experiences and have experiences in the past that have had a huge effect on the direction of the society.

I point at Orr sinking entirely and then being raised back to it's former position and while it created a tsunami, it did not create epic earthquakes that ruined the land in every region nearby. It's sinking caused very little noted disruption to the surrounding areas IIRC as well. 

5 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

I'm fairly certain that even landscapes that have been salted have the ability to regrow over the course of 1,000 years.

 

The closest that we know of that the Dwarves lived to the Crystal Desert was in the Shiverpeaks Mountains. There may have been dwarves in Ascalon as well, but we do not know for certain how many there were or if it was fully civilized. You have to remember that Tyria is really much larger than the game shows. It is mentioned to take a day to cross the Brand in a book, not 30 seconds. And the trip from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City was something like 5-6 days on foot. This means your situation is more like people in the middle of mainland China writing about an earthquake in Japan at best. Yes, it would likely have been felt, but likely nowhere near as devastating as you mention.

Part of this is also the fact that unlike ingame, characters would need to rest, eat, sleep, bathroom, etc.  Also certain areas are a lot more dangerous. The lore danger of dragon minions is much higher then the gameplay dangers too.

While I'm not a huge fan of "Tyria is actually way bigger" there are certain aspects which explicitly have been gamified. Including regional dangers.

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17 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Raising the land would be even worse as it would lead to catastrophic geological changes. There would have been massive earthquakes in the entire region, I even use that as a point, and the climate would have changed as the winds would have been redirected by the raised landmass. It's a trope in fantasy to have land raised without there being any consequences, that's insanely ignorant. Raising landmass, especially from the sea, has HUGE geological consequences, and Tyria despite being made from magic essence, does run on real physics, just look at the damage from Orr being risen from the bottom of the sea. It inflicted massive amounts of damage even all the way down to Cantha.

You go into the salinity of the soil and then use "barren desert" as an argument when there are lush areas right next to the desert WITHIN THE DESERT WHERE THE SEA WOULD HAVE BEEN. The prime example of this is the gorge that's probably below the sea level of Amnoon that's lush.

The objective facts are impossible to align with the subjective records as the physics are plain impossible and the physics have been confirmed to be real.

"Catastrophic geological changes" is literally what happened. It turned a sea into a desert and a jungle into a canyon-filled wasteland and the gods went "oh kitten, we canNOT do this again". And the climate DID change - as mentioned, the Desolation was originally a verdant (read: forested) area. Though as you point out, it's rather common for writers to not consider the full scope of what damages would occur - and this does indeed happen here. It's a part of suspension of belief.

The lush areas "right next to the desert" only began to form after 1330 years of constant rainfall and redirection of rivers. A thousand years have passed. And that's not even considering whatever the Forgotten, who lived in the Crystal Desert for 800+ years, would have done to help reduce the damages, or what the Six Gods might've done to help reduce the damages before departing.

Keep in mind that Tyria is a planet full of magic, and in Secrets of the Obscure, one of the fractals' (Primal Maguuma's) entire outcome shows that "magic helps life thrive in situations they otherwise wouldn't".

17 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The Deldrimor Dwarves would have made records of this since the amount of massive earthquakes would have inflicted massive damage on their city. It would have been a pivotal point in their history that would be remembered forever as it would also affect the design of the buildings. It would be akin to the Japanese socio-cultural environment being completely unaffected by the earthquakes and tsunamis the country experiences and have experiences in the past that have had a huge effect on the direction of the society.

Maybe they did, maybe the Six Gods wiped those records too when they erased all records and evidence of Abaddon's existence. We don't know because we barely have a fraction of Deldrimor's history - hell we don't even know how long the Stone Summit was in existence! We only know the name of three kings of Deldrimor, which includes the last (Jalis)! It's unfortunate to say but we don't know the dwarves' reaction to the gift of magic or the Exodus of the Gods - maybe there was something, maybe there wasn't.

But we cannot say there wasn't just because we don't see it.

13 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Areas being salted are done by human hands and thus the salt will only be in the topsoil and erosion will remove it over time. In this case, the soil would have been marinating in the saltwater for centuries, and as such the salt in the soil would be much, much deeper. It would be a natural consequence of another action instead of a direct consequence of it.

You act like the sea floor has zero plantlife in it... But coral reefs exist. And that's ignoring things the passage of time and existence of magic.

It's obviously hard for life to be sustained in the Crystal Desert - a constant source of fresh water is required from outside the desert. But this just goes to support the situation. And the saltier areas are still completely barren, especially on surface level (I think there is a cave with plantlife growing not far from the Salt Flats in GW2, which would have been below the mention of marinated saltwater soil in addition to being washed out with fresh water over the millennia.

13 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And Derelict Dvelve is literally an abandoned Dwarven city. That city would have been directly affected, even if we assume the area is larger than the map represents as we're talking earthquakes on a magnitude between 8 to 9 Richter. The area that the Palace of Aban is built on would have been utterly devastated as it's right next to the Transcendent Bay area which would have been the Transcendent Inlet before the fight.

Maybe Derelict Delves was abandoned because of the events of the Exodus? Though as Narcemus points out, it's still a very huge distance away from the Mouth of Torment.

Palace of Aban was made by the Primeval Kings and they only reached so far north decades after the Exodus - specifically 29 AE, when they began burying their dead in the Crystal Desert - so that structure was built post-Exodus. The djinn there talks like it's only been a handful of centuries, too, so it would have been even more recent.

 

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

"Catastrophic geological changes" is literally what happened. It turned a sea into a desert and a jungle into a canyon-filled wasteland and the gods went "oh kitten, we canNOT do this again". And the climate DID change - as mentioned, the Desolation was originally a verdant (read: forested) area. Though as you point out, it's rather common for writers to not consider the full scope of what damages would occur - and this does indeed happen here. It's a part of suspension of belief.

The lush areas "right next to the desert" only began to form after 1330 years of constant rainfall and redirection of rivers. A thousand years have passed. And that's not even considering whatever the Forgotten, who lived in the Crystal Desert for 800+ years, would have done to help reduce the damages, or what the Six Gods might've done to help reduce the damages before departing.

Keep in mind that Tyria is a planet full of magic, and in Secrets of the Obscure, one of the fractals' (Primal Maguuma's) entire outcome shows that "magic helps life thrive in situations they otherwise wouldn't".

Maybe they did, maybe the Six Gods wiped those records too when they erased all records and evidence of Abaddon's existence. We don't know because we barely have a fraction of Deldrimor's history - hell we don't even know how long the Stone Summit was in existence! We only know the name of three kings of Deldrimor, which includes the last (Jalis)! It's unfortunate to say but we don't know the dwarves' reaction to the gift of magic or the Exodus of the Gods - maybe there was something, maybe there wasn't.

But we cannot say there wasn't just because we don't see it.

You act like the sea floor has zero plantlife in it... But coral reefs exist. And that's ignoring things the passage of time and existence of magic.

It's obviously hard for life to be sustained in the Crystal Desert - a constant source of fresh water is required from outside the desert. But this just goes to support the situation. And the saltier areas are still completely barren, especially on surface level (I think there is a cave with plantlife growing not far from the Salt Flats in GW2, which would have been below the mention of marinated saltwater soil in addition to being washed out with fresh water over the millennia.

Maybe Derelict Delves was abandoned because of the events of the Exodus? Though as Narcemus points out, it's still a very huge distance away from the Mouth of Torment.

Palace of Aban was made by the Primeval Kings and they only reached so far north decades after the Exodus - specifically 29 AE, when they began burying their dead in the Crystal Desert - so that structure was built post-Exodus. The djinn there talks like it's only been a handful of centuries, too, so it would have been even more recent.

 

The devastation in Desolation is a result of sulfur leaking out of the Maw of Torment. Joko specifically chose the area as his castle as the geological conditions would make it impossible for armies of the living to operate.

As I said, I do believe that the fight between the gods caused damage it's far from the catastrophic damage such an event would create, and your argument of "they did not consider the full scope..." except the writers did do that earlier since the Rising of Orr has an in-depth description of the consequences of such an event and a full replacement of the writers only happened after IBS I believe.

Forests and such are transient. We see them as lasting forever due to our lives often being shorter than that of a forest and in objective reality they're extremely vulnerable and can disappear faster than they sprung into existence. The Sahara Dessert was most likely a forested area once before desertification happened.

I'm talking about geological change, and evidence in and on the ground. The areas directly affected would be littered with broken mountains, even after 1.000 years of exposure. The rocks would be more rounded and there would still be visual evidence of landslides. Yet, everywhere in the Crystal Desert is smooth, even outside of the inhabited areas that would have been cleaned up. Landslides and twisted rocks never suddenly disappear, they stay until eroded away, and the only way they can disappear is if someone went around and removed them. And while the mental image of Dweyna going around with a duståpan and a brush is hilarious I strongly doubt she would do that since that would be interfering with nature.

While coral reefs do exist in saltwater as well as does seaweed the moment you transplant them to the open air and/or freshwater they die since they've evolutionally developed in a way that allows to to only get nourishment in saltwater and submerged in it since those are the conditions they exist in.

And if the human gods had such power that they could erase even oral traditions amongst the dwarves it would have been easier for them to just tell the Tengu in Cantha, the Charr in Ascalaon, and the Centaurs in Kryta to just leave instead of doing a colonialism on each of them to make room for the humans.

And even considering magic things have to make sense in context and be consistent else the suspicion of disbelief is broken. For example, the climate zones going from south to north make no geological sense and I can chalk that down to the influence of the Mists that it was created from. My suspension of belief is intact since it's consistent with the lore presented.

And again, large rocks never vanish unless someone makes them do so, they erode over several millennia due to exposure to various things, in this case only the climate since Tyria seems to be geologically stable. The fight between the gods is unable to simultaneously inflict massive damage and leave no evidence since such massive damage automatically leaves evidence that's nigh impossible to remove.

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19 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I point at Orr sinking entirely and then being raised back to it's former position and while it created a tsunami, it did not create epic earthquakes that ruined the land in every region nearby. It's sinking caused very little noted disruption to the surrounding areas IIRC as well. 

Part of this is also the fact that unlike ingame, characters would need to rest, eat, sleep, bathroom, etc.  Also certain areas are a lot more dangerous. The lore danger of dragon minions is much higher then the gameplay dangers too.

While I'm not a huge fan of "Tyria is actually way bigger" there are certain aspects which explicitly have been gamified. Including regional dangers.

A Tsunami is the result of an underwater earthquake. The energy from the tremor is displaced into the water, and as a reaction, the water responds to that energy and creates waves. On the open sea itself, that wave is unnoticeable since there's a fathomless ocean beneath it. For example, if a tsunami is ten meters tall that means that the energy in the wave is ten meters tall as well- In an ocean that's 10+ meters deep, we just see the surface ripple. When there's less than 10 meters to the bottom we start seeing the wave forming. The mass displacement of Orr itself would have just elevated the sea level around the landmasses a bit and nothing more, it would hardly be noticeable when the entire water mass of the Unending Ocean is considered.

The mere existence of tsunamis informs that earthquakes did happen since tsunamis can only occur as a consequence of earthquakes., and considering the magnitudes of those tsunamis those earthquakes were massive.

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20 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

I'll admit, I forgot about the desert highlands dwarven city, though that city is still multiple hundreds (if not thousands) of miles away from the location of the epicenter of this event, the Desolation where Abaddon was thrown down, and still quite a ways away from the center of the desert itself. But that said what documents from that city do we have? Do we have the histories of the dwarven leadership? I mean great kings always have written histories of their work. Do we know what the city did? What they produced? How about what that mysterious otherworldly zone that the mini-dungeon leads to is? Do we know anything about that? We have next to no dwarven documentation. So how can we know that there wasn't a document about the earthquake that we never found? Even more, what if that earthquake is why that city is empty today?

And it has been proven again and again that nature will find a way. It has been 1,300 years since that sea became a desert. It doesn't take nearly that long for nature to start finding a way to make the most inhospitable places a location to live. As Konig pointed out there has been erosion through both wind and water over the course of that whole time to help change the salinity of the landscape.

All of that still doesn't explain the massive jump from "some of these things don't make sense" to *adjusts tin foil hat* "The Six aren't that powerful and made it all up!"

Do you remember the earthquake in Basilica, Italy in 1998? That one was "only" a 5.6m. I felt that in Rome and that 370+ KM away. These earthquakes would be much larger and there would be considerably more of them. They would have felt it.

And while nature does often find a way it's at least a meter of the topsoil that needs to be eroded away before anything can grow.

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21 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

We talk about extremely powerful MAGICAL beings here. 

Real life logic does not have to apply here. 

 

Except it does since similar things have happened before that have had logical consequences. The Rising of Orr, for example.

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3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The devastation in Desolation is a result of sulfur leaking out of the Maw of Torment. Joko specifically chose the area as his castle as the geological conditions would make it impossible for armies of the living to operate.

The spread of Abaddon's influence certainly made it worse, but Ruins of Morah outpost description does indicate that desertification occurred before the spread of sulfur. Joko's choice is independent on what caused the spread.

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

As I said, I do believe that the fight between the gods caused damage it's far from the catastrophic damage such an event would create, and your argument of "they did not consider the full scope..." except the writers did do that earlier since the Rising of Orr has an in-depth description of the consequences of such an event and a full replacement of the writers only happened after IBS I believe.

The Cataclysm only resulted in choppy waters that caused a bunch of shipwrecks. The rising of Orr's effects are horribly inconsistent, causing Droknar, Amnoon, and Lion's Arch to sink underwater despite being (well) above waterlevel, and somehow devastating Tahnnakai Temple despite it being on the other side of the very high up and well built Raisu Palace, and that's despite Soo-Won "protecting" Cantha by diminishing the tidal wave with another tidal wave, all this despite the Sanctum Cay island that became Dominion of Winds being virtually untouched, despite the rest of Kryta's shoreline being virtually untouched, despite Istan being virtually untouched.

So I would fully disagree that ArenaNet considered the full scope. Because the only scope they considered is "could the tidal wave hit it? Probably." and had it at horribly disproportionate effects, and not even considered the potential of earthquakes either would result in.

But I must stress that the Rising of Orr was put into consideration by three sets of writers, very few (if any) considered the lore for the Crystal Desert's formation back in 2003-2005. ArenaNet has been a bit of a rotating door of developers and writers, with the majority of the members only sticking around for 2-4 years. There may not have been a "full replacement of the writers", but as far as I know, only two members of the original Prophecies development team stuck around since Prophecies - Bobby Stein and Matthew Medina. Nightfall and core GW2 had Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee and others sticking around, but between Prophecies and Nightfall there was already a big noticed swap of developers and writers, and even more post-GW2 launch.

And hell, to add onto this - the more modern writers (as of base GW2) seem to have a rather warped passage of time, because as you'll learn very easily in Tarir, to them, 200 years is ANCIENT. Which is also evident by past devs using our past 250 years as explanation for how Tyria can advance so fast to have near modern technology despite GW1 being more like the technology of 800+ years ago. So it wouldn't be shocking if ArenaNet thinks 1,000 years is more than enough time to erode a canyon to, well, not a canyon.

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Forests and such are transient. We see them as lasting forever due to our lives often being shorter than that of a forest and in objective reality they're extremely vulnerable and can disappear faster than they sprung into existence. The Sahara Dessert was most likely a forested area once before desertification happened.

I'm talking about geological change, and evidence in and on the ground. The areas directly affected would be littered with broken mountains, even after 1.000 years of exposure. The rocks would be more rounded and there would still be visual evidence of landslides. Yet, everywhere in the Crystal Desert is smooth, even outside of the inhabited areas that would have been cleaned up. Landslides and twisted rocks never suddenly disappear, they stay until eroded away, and the only way they can disappear is if someone went around and removed them. And while the mental image of Dweyna going around with a duståpan and a brush is hilarious I strongly doubt she would do that since that would be interfering with nature.

Forests are transient and... so are deserts. Even the Grand Canyon is vastly different now than 1,000 years ago. You're still treating the Crystal Desert as if it was never once touched by non-natural means, but:

  • The Six actively wanted to remove evidence of Abaddon.
  • The Forgotten were a highly magical species that thrived in the desert, somehow, for 1100 years.
  • At least four human cultures attempted to settle the desert, and even created giant sculptures and stone buildings - where would they get this material? Probably quarries in the desert.
  • At least three non-human, non-Forgotten cultures attempted to settle the desert (Losaru centaurs, sand giants, and djinn) in the past, which could have affected the landscape too.

And honestly, a dustpan wouldn't be needed. Melandru could just sweep her hands and boom, forest. As indicated with the Orrian History Scrolls about what she did when arriving on Orr. Obviously she didn't do that, but it wouldn't be hard to believe she or the other gods cleaned up a bit to make it less noticeable.

Also "everywhere in the Crystal Desert is smooth" - noooot really. Especially in GW1, which had a ton of canyons, especially in the southern Crystal Desert. And ESPECIALLY the Desolation. The Desolation is a literal spiderweb of canyons, as given the name Shattered Ravines.

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

While coral reefs do exist in saltwater as well as does seaweed the moment you transplant them to the open air and/or freshwater they die since they've evolutionally developed in a way that allows to to only get nourishment in saltwater and submerged in it since those are the conditions they exist in.

I mean, if you were to suddenly transplant eels and sharks out of water, they die too. And. Yet.

Not to mention the same thing happens in the Jade Sea where sea creatures are suddenly capable of thriving on surface without water, due to magic.

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And if the human gods had such power that they could erase even oral traditions amongst the dwarves it would have been easier for them to just tell the Tengu in Cantha, the Charr in Ascalaon, and the Centaurs in Kryta to just leave instead of doing a colonialism on each of them to make room for the humans.

If they couldn't, then why was all knowledge of Abaddon wiped out? The Dwarves didn't just worship the Great Dwarf but Dwayna and Grenth too, and they had plenty of interactions with humans. If the Six couldn't influence their culture to some degree then knowledge of Abaddon simply could not be "lost".

Also tengu were not colonized until post-Jade Wind (872 AE), centaurs weren't colonized until the Primeval Kings resettled Kryta in 300 AE, and the charr were the antagonizers not humans.

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And even considering magic things have to make sense in context and be consistent else the suspicion of disbelief is broken. For example, the climate zones going from south to north make no geological sense and I can chalk that down to the influence of the Mists that it was created from. My suspension of belief is intact since it's consistent with the lore presented.

And again, large rocks never vanish unless someone makes them do so, they erode over several millennia due to exposure to various things, in this case only the climate since Tyria seems to be geologically stable. The fight between the gods is unable to simultaneously inflict massive damage and leave no evidence since such massive damage automatically leaves evidence that's nigh impossible to remove.

To be honest, in the 18 years this has been lore, you're probably the first person I've seen bring this up as "not believable". So I don't think suspicion of disbelief is broken by people thinking "magic is involved plus 1,000 years of time passing".

4 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

A Tsunami is the result of an underwater earthquake. The energy from the tremor is displaced into the water, and as a reaction, the water responds to that energy and creates waves. On the open sea itself, that wave is unnoticeable since there's a fathomless ocean beneath it. For example, if a tsunami is ten meters tall that means that the energy in the wave is ten meters tall as well- In an ocean that's 10+ meters deep, we just see the surface ripple. When there's less than 10 meters to the bottom we start seeing the wave forming. The mass displacement of Orr itself would have just elevated the sea level around the landmasses a bit and nothing more, it would hardly be noticeable when the entire water mass of the Unending Ocean is considered.

The mere existence of tsunamis informs that earthquakes did happen since tsunamis can only occur as a consequence of earthquakes., and considering the magnitudes of those tsunamis those earthquakes were massive.

Not this tsunami. This tsunami is explicitly caused by Zhaitan displacing water by rising Orr. Not from earthquakes under the water. The Cataclysm and Rising of Orr is more akin to throwing a rock into a lake and watching the ripples, just x1,000 (and yes, this isn't a perfect analogy because Orr isn't a floating landmass).

Also I'm... fairly certain your example is wrong.

And hell, your statement here actively contradicts your prior statement of ArenaNet considering all the consequences in a logical manner with the rising of Orr and it affecting Cantha... Because by your viewpoint, if Cantha is hit by a tsunami so tall it can wipe out literally all of Kaineng, going hundreds of miles inland, and leaving it permanently flooded, then how the kitten did Kryta not get wiped off the face of the earth (let alone Istan which was also hit by the tsunami).

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Before reading too much from ArenaNet not showing as much evidence as you might expect from a 1300-year-old catastrophe, let's keep in mind that the Malyck storyline relies on a pod having washed downstream into the river at the foot of Skrittsburgh in Brisban Wildlands... except that if you explore that river, the source appears to be a waterfall emanating from Skrittsburgh Mountain. So either Malyck's tree is actually on top of Skrittsburgh and somehow nobody noticed, there's an underground connector we can't access, or ArenaNet messed up their geography.

There's also a waterway that seems to empty into the ocean at both ends, while having a third offshoot which also empties out into the ocean at Lion's Arch. Although that case could be explained if the lake west of Divinity's Reach simply has two outlets, one of which diverges, thereby making that one lake the source of most of the freshwater in Kryta... with no apparent feeder rivers and most of its banks away from the outlet rivers appearing to be arid zones.

Unfortunately, the deeper you look into Tyria's goegraphy, the more holes you'll find. Even if we were to do a full scientific survey and decide that there just isn't the ingame evidence that you'd expect to find of the destruction of the Crystal Sea, Hanlon's razor definitely applies here: it is far more likely that the lack of as much evidence as you seem to expect is because ArenaNet didn't think to put more of it in than that it's a secret hint that the gods are lying about an event that happened at the time they said it happened while the events that they say caused it were happening.

Especially since they've said in the past that at least some of their worldbuilding prioritises Rule of Cool.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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too much fight over a world where we have floating islands, and ppl can breathe underwater forever.

...

Gods inst just about "destructive power", the dethroned balthazar nearly killed krakatorrik, killed commander, imprisioned joko, and in absence of the dragonspear, he build his own "war beast" powered by aurene. They real force is that are the greatest manipulators of magic.

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1 hour ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

too much fight over a world where we have floating islands, and ppl can breathe underwater forever.

 

Okay first part is magic, second part is literally just gameplay balancing + underwater breathing tools.

Just like how Asura have to actually sprint to keep up with Norn who are walking fast.

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On 9/9/2023 at 7:19 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The spread of Abaddon's influence certainly made it worse, but Ruins of Morah outpost description does indicate that desertification occurred before the spread of sulfur. Joko's choice is independent on what caused the spread.

The Cataclysm only resulted in choppy waters that caused a bunch of shipwrecks. The rising of Orr's effects are horribly inconsistent, causing Droknar, Amnoon, and Lion's Arch to sink underwater despite being (well) above waterlevel, and somehow devastating Tahnnakai Temple despite it being on the other side of the very high up and well built Raisu Palace, and that's despite Soo-Won "protecting" Cantha by diminishing the tidal wave with another tidal wave, all this despite the Sanctum Cay island that became Dominion of Winds being virtually untouched, despite the rest of Kryta's shoreline being virtually untouched, despite Istan being virtually untouched.

So I would fully disagree that ArenaNet considered the full scope. Because the only scope they considered is "could the tidal wave hit it? Probably." and had it at horribly disproportionate effects, and not even considered the potential of earthquakes either would result in.

But I must stress that the Rising of Orr was put into consideration by three sets of writers, very few (if any) considered the lore for the Crystal Desert's formation back in 2003-2005. ArenaNet has been a bit of a rotating door of developers and writers, with the majority of the members only sticking around for 2-4 years. There may not have been a "full replacement of the writers", but as far as I know, only two members of the original Prophecies development team stuck around since Prophecies - Bobby Stein and Matthew Medina. Nightfall and core GW2 had Jeff Grubb and Ree Soesbee and others sticking around, but between Prophecies and Nightfall there was already a big noticed swap of developers and writers, and even more post-GW2 launch.

And hell, to add onto this - the more modern writers (as of base GW2) seem to have a rather warped passage of time, because as you'll learn very easily in Tarir, to them, 200 years is ANCIENT. Which is also evident by past devs using our past 250 years as explanation for how Tyria can advance so fast to have near modern technology despite GW1 being more like the technology of 800+ years ago. So it wouldn't be shocking if ArenaNet thinks 1,000 years is more than enough time to erode a canyon to, well, not a canyon.

Forests are transient and... so are deserts. Even the Grand Canyon is vastly different now than 1,000 years ago. You're still treating the Crystal Desert as if it was never once touched by non-natural means, but:

  • The Six actively wanted to remove evidence of Abaddon.
  • The Forgotten were a highly magical species that thrived in the desert, somehow, for 1100 years.
  • At least four human cultures attempted to settle the desert, and even created giant sculptures and stone buildings - where would they get this material? Probably quarries in the desert.
  • At least three non-human, non-Forgotten cultures attempted to settle the desert (Losaru centaurs, sand giants, and djinn) in the past, which could have affected the landscape too.

And honestly, a dustpan wouldn't be needed. Melandru could just sweep her hands and boom, forest. As indicated with the Orrian History Scrolls about what she did when arriving on Orr. Obviously she didn't do that, but it wouldn't be hard to believe she or the other gods cleaned up a bit to make it less noticeable.

Also "everywhere in the Crystal Desert is smooth" - noooot really. Especially in GW1, which had a ton of canyons, especially in the southern Crystal Desert. And ESPECIALLY the Desolation. The Desolation is a literal spiderweb of canyons, as given the name Shattered Ravines.

I mean, if you were to suddenly transplant eels and sharks out of water, they die too. And. Yet.

Not to mention the same thing happens in the Jade Sea where sea creatures are suddenly capable of thriving on surface without water, due to magic.

If they couldn't, then why was all knowledge of Abaddon wiped out? The Dwarves didn't just worship the Great Dwarf but Dwayna and Grenth too, and they had plenty of interactions with humans. If the Six couldn't influence their culture to some degree then knowledge of Abaddon simply could not be "lost".

Also tengu were not colonized until post-Jade Wind (872 AE), centaurs weren't colonized until the Primeval Kings resettled Kryta in 300 AE, and the charr were the antagonizers not humans.

To be honest, in the 18 years this has been lore, you're probably the first person I've seen bring this up as "not believable". So I don't think suspicion of disbelief is broken by people thinking "magic is involved plus 1,000 years of time passing".

Not this tsunami. This tsunami is explicitly caused by Zhaitan displacing water by rising Orr. Not from earthquakes under the water. The Cataclysm and Rising of Orr is more akin to throwing a rock into a lake and watching the ripples, just x1,000 (and yes, this isn't a perfect analogy because Orr isn't a floating landmass).

Also I'm... fairly certain your example is wrong.

And hell, your statement here actively contradicts your prior statement of ArenaNet considering all the consequences in a logical manner with the rising of Orr and it affecting Cantha... Because by your viewpoint, if Cantha is hit by a tsunami so tall it can wipe out literally all of Kaineng, going hundreds of miles inland, and leaving it permanently flooded, then how the kitten did Kryta not get wiped off the face of the earth (let alone Istan which was also hit by the tsunami).

What? Anmoon and LA are low-situated coastal cities. They would be first in line to be affected by a tsunami, and it's consistent that the old parts of the cities are underwater. First, they got hit by tsunamis and then the mass displacement of Orr caused the water level to rise enough that those areas were drowned and permanently abandoned. the only other coastal city on the map is Garrenhoff and I think that was established after Orr rose. The same with the Skimmer place.

And deserts themselves are only hostile climates, people can live and operate in them if they take precautions. It's impossible to live and breathe in a place where you breathe sulfur.

As for the argument that the gods would want to remove evidence of Abbadon, they did a kitten-poor job since he's still mentioned in several places in history and some of his statues are still around. You also have to provide a reason for what would make them do that instead of just saying it. That just makes it a statement and useless in a debate. It's extremely useful as propaganda to have evidence around for an enemy. Even if I assume it's an argument it still requires that the gods went around and leveled out every surface on the Crystal Desert up to half of The Desolation, and The Desolation was Abbadon territory. For what reason would they willingly go into hostile territory? To erase something that no one would ever view?

And your own argumentation makes no sense, if they were that strong how come they were unable to defeat the Elder Dragons? No matter how I twist and turn it if I take every every objective reality and align them they're dissonant with one another. 

On one hand, being able to do the things attributed to them would require unfathomable amounts of energy which would have made them able to defeat the Elder Dragons with ease. Same with Ascalon, if they had that amount of power it would have been easier to just wipe all of them out rather than chase them away. And they were aliens which is shown in how easily they without empathy went on displacing three races to make room for humans.

And what you have about Orr are historical records. This means they were written by people and people can only describe things they know. This is the "God of the gaps" fallacy. Before geological knowledge, "a volcano is erupting, it's a punishment from the divine!" After geological knowledge, "a volcano is erupting, it's a result of continental plates rubbing against each other that creates a flow for magma to rise up from under the Earth's crust." It's less fun and more magical. And before you counter with "Tyria has magic!" I'll ask you a series of questions. Is there gravity? Are you unable to breathe beneath the water without assistance? Does it get colder the higher up you go? 

While magic exists in Tyria it follows and in some cases stands in for phenomenons that are based on physics we use every day to make our lives easier. Taimi's communication device can cover vast distances because the signal follows Leylines. This is in practice no different than pinging the signal off a satellite or using an extremely long cable to send the signal, similar to the Tans-Atlantic Communications Cable(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transatlantic_communications_cable).

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2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

 

As for the argument that the gods would want to remove evidence of Abbadon, they did a kitten-poor job since he's still mentioned in several places in history and some of his statues are still around. You also have to provide a reason for what would make them do that instead of just saying it. That just makes it a statement and useless in a debate. It's extremely useful as propaganda to have evidence around for an enemy. Even if I assume it's an argument it still requires that the gods went around and leveled out every surface on the Crystal Desert up to half of The Desolation, and The Desolation was Abbadon territory. For what reason would they willingly go into hostile territory? To erase something that no one would ever view?

 

Ah you mean in remote areas very few people went to, as by the time of GW1 Abaddon was literally an unknown being until varesh started summoning demons into the world to bring about nightfall. In GW2 he's more known, but that's only because of the above. 

 

2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And your own argumentation makes no sense, if they were that strong how come they were unable to defeat the Elder Dragons? No matter how I twist and turn it if I take every every objective reality and align them they're dissonant with one another. 

 

It's almost as if they literally bring this very point up and deal with in instantly.

The gods could, in theory, beat the elder dragons. But the resulting damage of the conflict (see Desolation and crystal desert) would possibly render much of the land ruined. Plus, beings of pure magic vs beings that eat pure magic isn't a smart idea. This is quite literally, very simple.

 

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