Open world events - Keep going down frequently

[Gadzooks.4687]

So here is the deal. Ive tried the various meta builds out there, and despite them all being able to do great golem damage, the one thing they all seem to lack is the ability to provide survivability.

Most notably in situations where there are quite a few enemies around, with plenty of AoE damage going off. Sure, I can dodge/evade a good chunk of it, but I frequently find myself getting downed because my heal is on cooldown and there just doesnt seem to be a good way to mitigate incoming damage in these situations. (many instanced story missions are even worse, with everything just swarming me).

No, i dont have much ascended gear at the moment, that would require me to be able to farm effectively (not going down). Is this just the fate of this profession? Is it primarily for PvP or group situations where heals and barriers are provided by others?

Has anyone developed a good build or strategy for when they arent in a group but wanting to take part in open world content, especially in the newer expansions that seem to be swarming with enemies?

 

[Antrix.4512]

3 hours ago, Gadzooks.4687 said:

So here is the deal. Ive tried the various meta builds out there, and despite them all being able to do great golem damage, the one thing they all seem to lack is the ability to provide survivability.

Most notably in situations where there are quite a few enemies around, with plenty of AoE damage going off. Sure, I can dodge/evade a good chunk of it, but I frequently find myself getting downed because my heal is on cooldown and there just doesnt seem to be a good way to mitigate incoming damage in these situations. (many instanced story missions are even worse, with everything just swarming me).

No, i dont have much ascended gear at the moment, that would require me to be able to farm effectively (not going down). Is this just the fate of this profession? Is it primarily for PvP or group situations where heals and barriers are provided by others?

Has anyone developed a good build or strategy for when they arent in a group but wanting to take part in open world content, especially in the newer expansions that seem to be swarming with enemies?

 

It's quite difficult to accurately answer this question, as there are essentially multiple answers. I'm not entirely sure what is meant by 'survivability' because, contrary to popular belief, the Thief has sufficient survivability and is much better than many other professions. We have a ton of options to either avoid damage or, at the very least, decide whether to let the opponent attack us or not. We can regenerate HP from damage, on a quite impressive scale, avoid damage through stealth, distract mobs, stun and slow them, and kill so quickly that regeneration isn't even needed.

My understanding of this came only when I started delving into the class's abilities and traits, rather than blindly following a guide. Don't pay attention to all these crybabies whining on forums — we may not be meta, but WE ARE the most self-sufficient class for Open World. Literally. No, we may not face-tank a strike mission like a Revenant, but we can pull off much stronger maneuvers.

For start, I'd recommend trying out the Deadeye build, either with a Rifle (build I'm using, for example) or D/D. In both cases, you'll be fiercely regenerating HP from damage, and with the Rifle, you'll almost always be in stealth via dodge and other skills. The key is to try different options, read the descriptions of traits and skills, and don't wait for someone to publicly release a build that they primarily made for themselves. It's genuinely interesting and not as complicated as it seems at first glance.

And most importantly, let me reiterate — don't listen to these "confused" whiners who are forever complaining on the forum about how difficult it is to play Thief (I somewhat agree on some points), how lacking in survivability they are (absolute lie), and how low their damage output is (almost always top 1, unless there are scourges, lol). They'll also flood me with their confused faces in reactions, believe me.

P.S. But don't take my words about other player's builds, especially those like Lord Hizen, too literally. Builds from such players will AT LEAST serve as a very, very solid starting point to creating your own builds.

Edited September 11 by Antrix.4512

[Vidit.7108]

If DD or a DE with Staff make sure to dust strike enemies that you know will either use their strongest attack first or knock you down first. Take a short bow and you can aoe daze periodically which is super useful. 

The typical can't go wrong  trait/utility choices for living a long time on most thief builds are Invigorating  precision (trait), Signet of Malice, Haste (swift/quick/fury + stun break), and Signet of Agility (cleanse + 2 more dodges). You can throw blinding powder in there for more stealth if you want which would help i suppose if you are using dagger or  maybe DE. 

If you are using Specter in OW use gear like carrion with tormenting runes or if you want mixed use OW/Instanced ritualist, and if you die a lot with that I don't know what to tell you.  

Edited September 12 by Vidit.7108

[xellink.7568]

Question:
What is your target DPS in OW? 10k? 20k? 30k? Anything more is excessive, so if you are on a 40k glass cannon build, do reconsider options

10k is enough to kill everything, 20k will obliterate everything (even in raids) and most people want to overcompensate by bringing 25-30k.

1. Core

Condition Shadow Arts Pistol/Dagger

Stealth heal is your 'oh kitten' move while venoms also provide siphon. Stealth clears conditions and heals you including cloak and dagger. This build benches around 31-34k with increased efficiency with allies. With the new expansion update, relic of the fractal will probably provide a pretty good buff. It is not extremely low intensity and while SA does add some survivability, its not much unless you are willing to lower your DPS to bring a few defensive stats. 1-2 pieces of Celestials might be stat efficient here, retaining 28-30k DPS while adding to minimal suvivability.
May 2023 Power/Condi Pistol Thief Benchmarks - YouTube

2. Daredevil 

While Daredevil has an extra dodge, you need to actually utilise the dodge in order to boost DPS on all other weapons in min-max builds which is referred by the community as forced movement. This can lead to a lot of mishaps, despite the build being benched at 40k. This can be avoided by using staff master, so you don't have to enforce dodge. However, there is no way to further increase sword DPS apart from its autos, leaving staff as the most viable option. To maximise DPS, bounding dodger is used together with weakening strikes for maximum efficiency. 

Staff Daredevil 

Dropping havoc specialist will drop your DPS by about 10% which is equivalent to about 3-4k, However staff master adds a lot to survivability because it helps even if you had accidental endurance mismanagement and does not enforce forced depletion of endurance. The extra power will also translate to a tiny amount of extra vitality. This build doesn't suffer from the strict 90+% hp requirement that deadeye has. 

Low Intensity Daredevil Guide: Big DPS w/ 2 buttons - YouTube

3. Deadeye

Obviously selfish dps M7s aren't going to be super good in open world without reliable ally babysitting and you will need heal over time options to keep your HP up so your traits can activate. You should consider bQobK, signet of malice and other lower intensity options, alternating daggers and rifle. Consider silent scope for stealth so you don't need to bring utilities or you can use your utilities for other purposes. You will still easily hit 28-35k on deadeye even on a low intensity build. You will very easily crit cap, hence the build is optimised with Berserker+valkyrie (no DPS loss at 90%+ hp) or Dragon's (slight DPS loss) trinkets, backpiece and amulets (instead of full berserkers) if you have taken measures to keep HP above 90%. There is little role for a condi deadeye due to the over-performance of other power weapons.

Rifle Deadeye

This is a fairly simple build that relies on M5 instead of M7. For survivability, bring silent scope to free up your utilities for all that 'oh shizt' moments. The extra range helps in encounters where range can avoid deadly mechanics such as puddles and doughnuts (Chak Gerent for example). There will be lots of wasted precision from silent scope so you may opt to bring Dragon's stats to hit crit cap, but being stat efficient will also drop DPS. Dragon's carry plenty of vitality so it will boost your HP from 12-14k to 17-20k. This build can switch to dagger where required.

Dagger/Dagger Deadeye

This is a fairly simple build, which uses only 5->1 (backstab) to deal burst damage while relying autos on most of its other damage. I made a LI benchmark video on it at around 34k. The biggest weakness is that HP threshold needs to be maintained and you might not have a healer in OW. The dagger autos hit for about 19k with heavy supplementation from its stealth attack, backstab, accounting for the rest of its damage. You could also optimise this to hit 40k+ but you lose a lot of survivability. This build can switch to rifle where required.

Thief Low Intensity Benchmark - 34k - YouTube

Pistol/Pistol Deadeye

Honestly, I don't really subscribe to this one, but its apparent really good at target switching and probably does a pitiful amount of damage. Nevertheless, this used to be a fairly popular open world build and a redemption arc is probably due on the next patch.

GW2 - Pistol Deadeye Open World Build - GuildJen

Sword/Dagger Deadeye

Contrary to popular belief, sword has the highest autoattack DPS benched at 24-28k doing mainly autos with a fairly decent cleave. It packs all the utilities you need to get by for an open world build and also for decent role compression. Since sword deadeye doesn't use malice, you can bring collateral damage for blindness which adds to survivability where content has a lot of mobs. All your initiatives are used for tactical manoevers and damage mitigation (dual attack [sword 3] brings an evade + boon strip, stealth attack does a cc, etc). While the lack of burst damage is a weakness, you can use thieves guild to compensate. Do take note that the reddit post isn't updated and shadow flare leads to a DPS loss. I am able to get better numbers with binding shadow instead as the immobilisation adds some extra damage via the 11th condition as well as triggering 'relic of the deadeye'.

(2) Sword deadeye is now a viable low-intensity alternative to staff daredevil : Guildwars2 (reddit.com)

Other Variants and Niches

Shortbow is good for Q1 Lamp, and also killing low hp trash mobs where indicated as a backup weapon. Shortbow has decent autoattack damage which lies between kneel rifle and standing rifle. While shortbow has a blast finisher that may see use in group play, its not extremely inspiring considering the stats you are bringing.

4. Specter

Condi DPS Spectre/Condi Alac Spectre and any variant of Condi Spectre

This is probably going to be nerfed sometime down the road because of its high sustain, high DPS and high versatility. 2 HP bars, really good CC, really good support skills, can provide alac, and also high survivability in OW. It can solo cap WvW camps without breaking a sweat. However, be aware that its moves are relatively predictable in a PvP environment.

Essentially necro somehow landed in the Thief's kit. Because Specter is a necro, you need to use a scepter. There is very little meaning of playing spectre with any other weapon. 

 

Edited September 12 by xellink.7568

[SeTect.5918]

In group content people usually want you to deal as much damage as possible, but in some grp content people dont care so much.

I d say in fractals (normal fractals, no CMs) its fine if you trade a bit dmg for survivability. 

If you run condi you can just swap out some vipers pieces for trailblazers. Not too many tho and you should still deal fine damage.

 

However i run full dps in fractals but i dont run fractals with thief at all, i always use condi holo. But i made an extra build just for open world for my engi. 

There were times i also played thief a lot in open world and therefore i can link you some builds i played and enjoyed (made these myself):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAoilZwOYQMKmJmuW9vPA-DyIY1ohvMCMB6oA8ZAUB-e

^good self heal and lots of boons. Spam skill 3 and stealth attack.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PagAgilZwOYOMKGJmuW1tMA-DSRYcBBSGNcflRgJQHFgPDgKA-e

^you basically try to perma spam 3 and dodge on this one.

These are not to use for fractals tho, just for soloing in open world.

 

I think specter is kinda good too in open world but i dont have experience with it.

Edited September 12 by SeTect.5918

[Bern.9613]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:21 PM, Gadzooks.4687 said:

So here is the deal. Ive tried the various meta builds out there, and despite them all being able to do great golem damage, the one thing they all seem to lack is the ability to provide survivability.

 

LOL IKR? This is what I've been saying all along. Their response is always the same, "it shows the potential". Well potentially you're gonna die!!

Anyways, I like DE for the condi clears and the ranged power. This is what I like to use in pve (a slight modification from my wvw build):

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAQxjlNw2YSsLmJWyXrvKA-DSZYBRwIGFI85Im7oUqLE6LQjNBqoqs9WQQCjeNUYZDA-e

When using s/d make sure you keep an eye on your malice build up and use it while at enemy. Also there is a small cd for the fireworks relic but Mercy will reset it increasing duration of effect. I like to mark, build malice to max using rifle 2 X 3 or s/d 2 followed by 3 X 2, Mercy, F2, stealth attack, s/d return, mark again, repeat. Remember rifle 4 and return s/d 2 are condi cleanses. Signet of agility is your OH CRAP!! saviour. You can use smoke screen (good for blocking projectiles for the group) in place of shadow step. I prefer shadow step for solo'ing or in case things go south really fast.

Good luck out there.

[itspomf.9523]

On 9/11/2023 at 2:21 PM, Gadzooks.4687 said:

Is this just the fate of this profession? Is it primarily for PvP or group situations where heals and barriers are provided by others?

Yes and yes.  Following End of Dragons, pretty much everyone (except Necromancer and Guardian, wonder why) got huge nerfs to survivability, on the order of Invigorating Precision being nerfed to worse than when it released in 2014, and a lot of other traits dying off because Jade Bot cores and overcharge protocols.

With the balance team now all-in on thinking people only play Raids and the boon-ball meta, yeah, you're expected to just have 4 to 9 other players buffing and healing you constantly, since that piddly 6% critical-to-health conversion isn't going to best Signet of Malice with 0 Healing Power unless you're doing a base critical damage of about 2210 with Fury, or 3310 without, per hit.  And if you want to be on par with your Elementalist friend who's running Signet of Restoration, be prepared to do closer to 3370 / 5070 damage per crit.  As for a Necromancer running Blood and Death magic with a full minion loadout in Soldier's + Cleric's gear and a dagger?  Look, there's a reason it's a tank (which kinda got buffed recently, too!).

Meanwhile, Healing Power is still notorious for having absolute garbage scaling (such as 0.05 coefficient, compared to 0.1, on the aforementioned signets) regardless of what you dump into it (at the expense of other attributes, mind), and when the class as a whole has horribly languished in terms of damage since about 2016 (for example, prior to 2022, daggers only saw nerfs, and don't get me started on sword or shortbow), some 7 years ago, is it really any surprise that thief struggles to get by?

Thief went from being described as "deadly in one-on-one combat" with "affinity for setting traps and going where they were never meant to go," except now there's no mention of that anywhere and their tagline is essentially a joke, since even the Shadow Arts trait line got revised to push you to leave stealth as soon as possible, nevermind when stealth attacks got a hidden cooldown.  But at least Specter got damage reduction in shroud, after that month-long debacle of it essentially being useless (albeit still waiting to have that -3 max initiative penalty rolled back like several other elite specs received).

As someone who has been playing thief as my main for over 11 years at this point, it's in a really sorry state overall.

[kash.9213]

Find a way to get a faster group kill rate during map travel and put something sustaining on it like taking health or boons from interrupts or blinds or whatever. 

[Antrix.4512]

While the OP hasn't responded yet, I'd still like to recommend trying out the DE Rifle for OW. The advantages are pretty clear:

- You can always maintain distance from the crowd
- You can tag multiple mobs with 2 in most cases (unless they are widely dispersed)
- Incredible regen, EVEN if you take damage from some sort of "scripted" non-avoidable attacks
- You're virtually mob-free 99.9% of the time, thanks to constant stealth in the rotation and subsequent aggro loss
- You hit really really hard in ST
- No need for celestial or toughness gear for survivability and HP; you can easily run in berserker
- The playstyle is quite dynamic but not tiring due to its "piano-style", and the rotation is very easy to learn

As for downsides, it's hard to say... perhaps low AoE? And maybe some inconvenience in the rotation if the target frequently phases out, forcing the player to switch targets often.

Even considering that I agree with some arguments in favor of the idea that the thief is subjected to frequent nerfs, I still lean towards the idea that in most cases, people are looking for issues where there essentially are none, instead of just enjoying the game. Yes, very buggy game (so much so that compared to GW2, games from Bethesda seem polished to a shine even without unofficial patches), not always fair in terms of certain professions, where some can faceroll and others can't.

However, as a fairly casual player, I don't experience significant issues either in fractals or in open world. What's more, I would say not every class, even those "not nerfed to the ground", can boast as chill champions farming (and other types of open-world content, especially in a group) in berserker gear like DE Rifle can. You can also manage a large crowd in Specter (which I mentioned earlier when talking about switching builds depending on encounter situations), or if you get the hang of it, you can kite a dozen mobs, lining them up and deleting them from the game engine through Mark -> Rifle 2 (x3) -> Stealth -> Rifle 1 -> Repeat.

There are many options, and in my opinion, they are all unique and interesting, unlike the Revenant, who can tank anything without gear (literally) but offers such monotonous gameplay that it feels like sheer torture. Anyway, with Thief, in 9 out of 10 cases when there's a wipe happens in fractals, I end up being the only survivor, often managing to finish off the boss (not so fast but still, and if boss has less than 25-30% HP, otherwise it will be just a loss of time), only to then see in chat either "wow, cool, well done!" or the typical "yeah, yeah, anyone can hop around the arena in stealth, try suffering in melee with our OP unkillable specs like we do!" (If you think this is a joke or sarcasm, I assure you it's not).

Edited September 13 by Antrix.4512

[Stx.4857]

So the thing about playing solo is:

1) You want to provide your own boons like 25 might, fury, etc.  
2) You need to be able to survive adds, AoE damage, tough elite and champion mobs that pop out of nowhere, and conditions on you.  
3) You need to be able to recover HP yourself and cleanse conditions.  Shadow arts is really good for this.  
 

One thing to note is that thief power builds deal terrible damage solo.  Some of the worst in the game.  And they are very squishy because of the nerf to invigorating precision.  Power builds are okay for cleaving down multiple weak enemies, but to kill tough veterans, elites, bosses etc you definitely want a condition build.  
 

The meta builds you have been trying are most likely designed for playing in a squad where other players are giving you boons and also healing you.  Celestial is probably the best gearset for thief in open world.  It gives you a little bit of everything, and you can deal up to 20k dps on bosses with the right build.  I have never seen a power thief build do more than 10k solo.  
 

If you want to tell me what kind of gear you do have, I can recommend a condition or hybrid build for you.  

[Gadzooks.4687]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:13 PM, Antrix.4512 said:

While the OP hasn't responded yet, I'd still like to recommend trying out the DE Rifle for OW. The advantages are pretty clear:

- You can always maintain distance from the crowd
- You can tag multiple mobs with 2 in most cases (unless they are widely dispersed)
- Incredible regen, EVEN if you take damage from some sort of "scripted" non-avoidable attacks
- You're virtually mob-free 99.9% of the time, thanks to constant stealth in the rotation and subsequent aggro loss
- You hit really really hard in ST
- No need for celestial or toughness gear for survivability and HP; you can easily run in berserker
- The playstyle is quite dynamic but not tiring due to its "piano-style", and the rotation is very easy to learn

As for downsides, it's hard to say... perhaps low AoE? And maybe some inconvenience in the rotation if the target frequently phases out, forcing the player to switch targets often.

Even considering that I agree with some arguments in favor of the idea that the thief is subjected to frequent nerfs, I still lean towards the idea that in most cases, people are looking for issues where there essentially are none, instead of just enjoying the game. Yes, very buggy game (so much so that compared to GW2, games from Bethesda seem polished to a shine even without unofficial patches), not always fair in terms of certain professions, where some can faceroll and others can't.

However, as a fairly casual player, I don't experience significant issues either in fractals or in open world. What's more, I would say not every class, even those "not nerfed to the ground", can boast as chill champions farming (and other types of open-world content, especially in a group) in berserker gear like DE Rifle can. You can also manage a large crowd in Specter (which I mentioned earlier when talking about switching builds depending on encounter situations), or if you get the hang of it, you can kite a dozen mobs, lining them up and deleting them from the game engine through Mark -> Rifle 2 (x3) -> Stealth -> Rifle 1 -> Repeat.

There are many options, and in my opinion, they are all unique and interesting, unlike the Revenant, who can tank anything without gear (literally) but offers such monotonous gameplay that it feels like sheer torture. Anyway, with Thief, in 9 out of 10 cases when there's a wipe happens in fractals, I end up being the only survivor, often managing to finish off the boss (not so fast but still, and if boss has less than 25-30% HP, otherwise it will be just a loss of time), only to then see in chat either "wow, cool, well done!" or the typical "yeah, yeah, anyone can hop around the arena in stealth, try suffering in melee with our OP unkillable specs like we do!" (If you think this is a joke or sarcasm, I assure you it's not).

Appreciate the info.

After your first post I began trying out DE and it is pretty decent.

As you pointed out, it struggles a bit with AoE though. Might just be because I havent figured out the best way to handle groups larger than 2-3 though. Not quite sure how "Mark -> Rifle 2 (x3) -> Stealth -> Rifle 1 -> Repeat." lets you handle a group of a dozen mobs at once though.

What Ive been doing in the meantime, is taking Staff as my 2nd weapon, and using that for burning down AoE groups.