Looking for reaction focused class

[Rudens.3245]

Hi,

I find rotation based gameplay boring and loving mmos it's the bane of my existence in them.

Is there any class that has gameplay more focused on reactionary use of skill vs the rotation type?

I'm currently using elementalist but, even though it has much more skills to use and you can use them reactionary, most of the time it still distils to using rotation.

I mean more blocks/evades, counters, the class doesn't have to be high on damage or anything - if it's the worse in game, I don't care.

Is daredevil something that might be close to it or is there any else? 

[itspomf.9523]

Pretty much all of them, really, so long as you ignore Snowcrows / Metabattle / etc and just play the game.

Or there's Thief, but it's really hard to recommend it in its current state (you it is the most reactive/proactive thanks to the Initiative system -- just don't expect many defenses, since those are Stealth and you're not supposed* to use it).

 

(* okay, I mean, you can, but after the rework and the general lack of access to it without relying on long-cooldown utilities or offhand dagger means it's not actually a defense the way ANet wants to envision it being)

[SamuelW.2685]

2 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Or there's Thief, but it's really hard to recommend it in its current state (you it is the most reactive/proactive thanks to the Initiative system -- just don't expect many defenses, since those are Stealth and you're not supposed* to use it).

Thief can be very defensive, but not in the usual tanking hits way, I once solo'd a camp def in verdant brink as Alac Ritualist Specter It's more based on dodging and stealth, something that OP is looking for. I also don't thnk Thief is in that bad of a sate, Condi Specter is doing 46k, and Condi DD is doing 41k with a simple and easy to understand gameplan.

DD can has 3 dodges on any build, and condi DD's Dagger 3 is a dodge that can be spammed, both these let you avoid most damage all together.

Deadeye's standing rifle 4 is a cheap and far reaching backwards shadowstep, letting you quickly get out of danger, plus you can shadowstep from kneeling rifle 4 now too. Deadeye has great steath uptime so thanks to the topmost 2nd trait giving you stealth on rifle dodge. You can take Mug and use it to constantly mark mobs in the open world, every time you die they heal.
I made a build that even incorporates Mug, gives you perma swiftness, might, and fury in dense packs of mobs with full berserker gear and it's suuuuuuper survivable with great damage. 

Specter is more about raw HP, it has it's 2nd HP bar to help it survive, and if you're running Ritualist for Alac, you're gonna have tons of vitality to help take hits both in and out of shroud. I've tanked multiple champs in open world with Condi Alac Specter, it's nutty.

But about Thief, I think it's a great choice for someone who doesn't prefer a super rigid rotation, Thief is very free flowing with it's initiative since there's no cooldowns on weaponskills. Instead they cost Initiative, Initiative is a recharging resource, a weaponskill might cost 3 Initiative instead of having a CD in another class. There's still rotations, yes, but they're faaaaaaaaaaar less rigid then other classes, it feels amazing. It even has the dodging part OP was looking for.

Please consider looking into Thief, OP, it might sound a bit odd or indimitating but once you wrap your head around it it feels amazing. The worst part about Thief is that it doesn't have a proper WvW zerg build, it's only 1200 range weapon is Rifle, and Rifle is very single target focused, but outside of WvW zergs it's viable everywhere with the right build and knowledge. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by SamuelW.2685

[Antrix.4512]

16 minutes ago, SamuelW.2685 said:

Thief can be very defensive, but not in the usual tanking hits way, I once solo'd a camp def in verdant brink as Alac Ritualist Specter It's more based on dodging and stealth, something that OP is looking for. I also don't thnk Thief is in that bad of a sate, Condi Specter is doing 46k, and Condi DD is doing 41k with a simple and easy to understand gameplan.

DD can has 3 dodges on any build, and condi DD's Dagger 3 is a dodge that can be spammed, both these let you avoid most damage all together.

Deadeye's standing rifle 4 is a cheap and far reaching backwards shadowstep, letting you quickly get out of danger, plus you can shadowstep from kneeling rifle 4 now too. Deadeye has great steath uptime so thanks to the topmost 2nd trait giving you stealth on rifle dodge. You can take Mug and use it to constantly mark mobs in the open world, every time you die they heal.
I made a build that even incorporates Mug, gives you perma swiftness, might, and fury in dense packs of mobs with full berserker gear and it's suuuuuuper survivable with great damage. 

Specter is more about raw HP, it has it's 2nd HP bar to help it survive, and if you're running Ritualist for Alac, you're gonna have tons of vitality to help take hits both in and out of shroud. I've tanked multiple champs in open world with Condi Alac Specter, it's nutty.

But about Thief, I think it's a great choice for someone who doesn't prefer a super rigid rotation, Thief is very free flowing with it's initiative since there's no cooldowns on weaponskills. Instead they cost Initiative, Initiative is a recharging resource, a weaponskill might cost 3 Initiative instead of having a CD in another class. There's still rotations, yes, but they're faaaaaaaaaaar less rigid then other classes, it feels amazing. It even has the dodging part OP was looking for.

Please consider looking into Thief, OP, it might sound a bit odd or indimitating but once you wrap your head around it it feels amazing. The worst part about Thief is that it doesn't have a proper WvW zerg build, it's only 1200 range weapon is Rifle, and Rifle is very single target focused, but outside of WvW zergs it's viable everywhere with the right build and knowledge. 

My dear shadow colleague... our Thieves' Guild is proud of you! 🥹

Edited September 15, 2023 by Antrix.4512

[Zekent.3652]

Spellbreaker with its F2 and with its Strength traitline that is focused on power damage and also dodges.

Warrior and thief are usually really good classes to improve your timings and react capacity, both are classes that improves you as player a lot, warrior has lower skillfloor but its ceiling is pretty high, thief has a moderate skillfloor but its ceiling is also high, both classes got one of the most high (if not highest) skill ceilings for PvE and PvP. This if for PvP, we ignore builds with gameplay like perma stealth thief, selfheal bot bladesworn and condizerk.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Zizekent.2398

[Teknomancer.4895]

12 hours ago, itspomf.9523 said:

ignore Snowcrows / Metabattle / etc and just play the game

OP, this right here is your answer. If rotations are not wanted, then ignore the meta.

Since they're derived from meta rotations, you should also ignore all of the damage numbers that get thrown around in the forums.

Those numbers are derived from artificial testing conditions while pounding on a passive, static target with a strict rotation. It's meant to simulate standing in a boss hitbox, flawlessly spamming out a prescribed rotation (that someone else came up with) while ignoring any need to dodge, heal or otherwise mitigate incoming damage because the zerg boon-ball will make up for your rotation's inherent defensive shortcomings.

None of that is necessarily the same thing as knowing how to play your class, btw.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Teknomancer.4895
clarity

[Stx.4857]

3 hours ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

OP, this right here is your answer. If rotations are not wanted, then ignore the meta.

Since they're derived from meta rotations, you should also ignore all of the damage numbers that get thrown around in the forums.

Those numbers are derived from artificial testing conditions while pounding on a passive, static target with a strict rotation. It's meant to simulate standing in a boss hitbox, flawlessly spamming out a prescribed rotation (that someone else came up with) while ignoring any need to dodge, heal or otherwise mitigate incoming damage because the zerg boon-ball will make up for your rotation's inherent defensive shortcomings.

None of that is necessarily the same thing as knowing how to play your class, btw.

So you took them asking for a reactionary class, and assumed they just don’t care about damage potential, performance, or any kind of optimization?   That’s quite the leap.  This just sounds like your typical “meta bad, dps doesn’t matter just have fun” stuff.  
 

To answer your question Op, every class uses a rotation in this game.  I would recommend thief because they have a unique system for their weapon skills that doesn’t use cooldowns, they use combo points.  I think it’s the closest to what you’re looking for and will feel by far the least proactive.  

[Teknomancer.4895]

6 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

So you took them asking for a reactionary class, and assumed they just don’t care about damage potential, performance, or any kind of optimization?   That’s quite the leap.

No, but I did actually take the time to read the post including the first two sentences which make it clear that rotations are not wanted:

On 9/14/2023 at 4:16 AM, Rudens.3245 said:

I find rotation based gameplay boring and loving mmos it's the bane of my existence in them.

Is there any class that has gameplay more focused on reactionary use of skill vs the rotation type?

In this context it's pretty clear that "reactionary" means reacting to the flow of combat, rather than performing a prescribed keyboard concerto regardless of circumstances.

[Stx.4857]

15 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

No, but I did actually take the time to read the post including the first two sentences which make it clear that rotations are not wanted:

In this context it's pretty clear that "reactionary" means reacting to the flow of combat, rather than performing a prescribed keyboard concerto regardless of circumstances.

Yea, and you somehow took that to mean ignore the meta instead of providing an accurate answer as to which class is the least rotation based.  “Just ignore rotations” isn’t helpful.  

[Stx.4857]

Also, telling someone to ignore sites like snowcrows or metabattle is so wrong.  Those sites provide information about the top performing builds in the game, including *rotations*.  Maybe better advice is to tell the OP to check those sites and look at the rotations for all the classes and that will help them pick one that is less complicated or spammy.  

[Teknomancer.4895]

19 minutes ago, Stx.4857 said:

Also, telling someone to ignore sites like snowcrows or metabattle is so wrong.  Those sites provide information about the top performing builds in the game, including *rotations*.

I'm starting to doubt that you read what OP wrote at all. "Top performing builds" are not what's being asked for here.

On 9/14/2023 at 4:16 AM, Rudens.3245 said:

the class doesn't have to be high on damage or anything - if it's the worse in game, I don't care.

Given that, plus the earlier-noted aversion to rotations, I responded as I did. How about instead of attacking me, you try and figure out what the OP actually wants?

[Sarlan.7682]

start pvping/wvw smallscale its probably the least bound to static rotations outside of burst/defensive combos

[Stx.4857]

43 minutes ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

I'm starting to doubt that you read what OP wrote at all. "Top performing builds" are not what's being asked for here.

Given that, plus the earlier-noted aversion to rotations, I responded as I did. How about instead of attacking me, you try and figure out what the OP actually wants?

I think you’re misunderstanding what is being said.  
 

“The class doesn’t have to be high damaging” does NOT mean “I want to ignore rotations purposefully lowering my performance”.  What it means is that he’s looking for a class that suits his playstyle and he doesn’t care if that class happens to be at the top of the meta chain.  Note: There is a meta for every spec separate from the overall meta.  
 

Again, simply telling someone to ignore meta builds and forget about rotations is not good advice.  You can choose to take that as a personal attack if you like, but it’s not. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Stx.4857

[Stx.4857]

@OP check out Reaper necro also.  Very fun and popular spec with barely any rotation.  Strong dps and great when playing solo as well. 

[FrancisN.9276]

Thief gameplay is mostly reactive rather than rotational, but in its current state with Anet nerfing the already underperforming Deadeye while leaving the high-effort-low-reward Daredevil in oblivion, Specter is the only class that does not make you want to rage quit.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Its not a profession I'll recommend, but a specific specialization: Bladesworn.  It is the first warrior spec that I've come to enjoy, because I like big numbers.  Bladesworn's gimmick is that it spends two seconds charging up Dragon Slash, before unleashing the strongest single hit in the game.  It is meant to emulate those samurai movies, where a fight is determined in a single draw-slash.

Bladesworn has a rotation.  For any practical sense, it is merely a suggestion.  Using Bladesworn well requires patience, knowledge, and foresight.  If you know the enemy patterns and where they spawn during events, you can kill entire groups of foes instantly.  Those two seconds can be quite the heavy time investment, so maximizing Bladesworn's potential is more about knowing when to engage Dragon Slash vs. when to stay mobile and attacking.  

[AliamRationem.5172]

On 9/14/2023 at 2:16 AM, Rudens.3245 said:

Hi,

I find rotation based gameplay boring and loving mmos it's the bane of my existence in them.

Is there any class that has gameplay more focused on reactionary use of skill vs the rotation type?

I'm currently using elementalist but, even though it has much more skills to use and you can use them reactionary, most of the time it still distils to using rotation.

I mean more blocks/evades, counters, the class doesn't have to be high on damage or anything - if it's the worse in game, I don't care.

Is daredevil something that might be close to it or is there any else? 

Which type of elementalist were you playing?  If you're looking for reactive defense skills, I think sword/focus brings a lot of options to the table.  You get extra evades on riptide and earthen vortex, invuln on obsidian flesh, projectile reflect on magnetic wave, projectile block on swirling winds.  If you're using arcane you gain an additional arcane shield that blocks 3 attacks on elite skill use and evasive arcana grants area blind on dodge in air.  You also have interrupts on air 2 and 5, water 5, air/earth 3, and possibly additional interrupt from your elite skill (e.g. weave self).

There's a lot of opportunity to avoid damage.  Does that mean you won't be trying to deal as much damage as possible, requiring some form of priority queue otherwise known as a rotation?  No.  But I think you should be able to get some of that active defense you're looking for out of the class.  Here are some sample videos featuring a lot of active defense on sword/focus weaver.  Maybe it'll give you some ideas.

Champion Mushroom King: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5lMkfq3s9k 

Kingslayer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daya2ILeUF8

Champion Arrowhead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwSi1UO641Q

To Kill a God: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8dcywMLwxk

 

 

[draxynnic.3719]

On the rotation debate: There are a fair few builds on the meta build sites where simply knowing skill priorities and maybe a few synergistic sequences (like mesmer resetting phantasm cooldowns) is all that's needed to play the build competitively. Strict rotations might get the highest DPS, but in real situations, knowing which skills are important and whether certain skills are better used before or after certain other skills - basically, having an understanding of how the build works - is usually more important than memorising a rotation that might just be broken by mechanics anyway.

Back to the OP: I'm seeing suggestions related to thief and warrior, and these aren't bad, but one thing you could consider is looking for builds that bring a lot of utility that can be used reactively. Guardian, especially firebrand, is good at this from the perspective of not just taking the maximum damage build and rotation, but carrying skills that grant stability, aegis, or projectile destruction that make things easier for the whole group if used well. Mesmer is also known for being able to bring a lot of useful utility to the battle, although mesmer utility use is usually a bit more premeditated. If you're thinking about raids, you might also consider looking into ranger: ranger covers a few encounter-specific roles that are a bit more reaction-based (a good pusher can make all the difference on Soulless Horror).

Elementalist, I'd have to say, was very probably the worst profession to start off with if you prefer reactionary play over rotations.

[AliamRationem.5172]

33 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

On the rotation debate: There are a fair few builds on the meta build sites where simply knowing skill priorities and maybe a few synergistic sequences (like mesmer resetting phantasm cooldowns) is all that's needed to play the build competitively. Strict rotations might get the highest DPS, but in real situations, knowing which skills are important and whether certain skills are better used before or after certain other skills - basically, having an understanding of how the build works - is usually more important than memorising a rotation that might just be broken by mechanics anyway.

Back to the OP: I'm seeing suggestions related to thief and warrior, and these aren't bad, but one thing you could consider is looking for builds that bring a lot of utility that can be used reactively. Guardian, especially firebrand, is good at this from the perspective of not just taking the maximum damage build and rotation, but carrying skills that grant stability, aegis, or projectile destruction that make things easier for the whole group if used well. Mesmer is also known for being able to bring a lot of useful utility to the battle, although mesmer utility use is usually a bit more premeditated. If you're thinking about raids, you might also consider looking into ranger: ranger covers a few encounter-specific roles that are a bit more reaction-based (a good pusher can make all the difference on Soulless Horror).

Elementalist, I'd have to say, was very probably the worst profession to start off with if you prefer reactionary play over rotations.

Elementalist?  Arguably one of the classes most reliant on active defense?  Or are we only looking at group PvE where dodging is mostly just a DPS loss that your supports are supposed to obviate the need for and skills are only useful for the damage they deal?

[Cuks.8241]

Which game mode. Pvp is reactionary by its nature. Ow play how you want, quite reactionary and rotations dont really apply.

If you want reactionary in instanced pve, play healing support. Allthough to be really good at it you will want to know the fight mechanics so you can also be preemptive.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Which game mode. Pvp is reactionary by its nature. Ow play how you want, quite reactionary and rotations dont really apply.

If you want reactionary in instanced pve, play healing support. Allthough to be really good at it you will want to know the fight mechanics so you can also be preemptive.

This guy gets it.  Good answer.

[SeTect.5918]

I think pretty much everything in open world is reactionary and pretty much nothing in group gameplay is reactionary (because dodging is dps loss) except if you play heal because you look after your mates.

But i think there are a few in group content which could be counted as reactionary. 

One of them is condi herald. The demon facet Transfers the condis of mates to you and you can then transfer these to the enemy. Well its not THAT reactionary but i mean if you are in t4 volcanic fractal and you got like 40 burn stacks of your mates on you then you gotta be pretty fast so you dont get a 1shot from 40 burn stacks. However its a dmg increase if you transfer them and i would count that as reactionary because you gotta look for conditions on you all the time to transfer them then. This can actually boost your damage massively, i legit already did 70k burn hits for a few seconds in volcanic fractal. That was pretty fun to see.

But there may be also other classes or e specs that can offer a small reactionary feature in group content. But generally group content doesnt really offer a lot of reactionary gameplay. Mostly nothing but just small reactionary Features like that one mentioned above. I mean its not really reactionary gameplay its just a a single skill with a cooldown of like 20-30 sec (not sure atm).

Edited September 17, 2023 by SeTect.5918

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Elementalist?  Arguably one of the classes most reliant on active defense?  Or are we only looking at group PvE where dodging is mostly just a DPS loss that your supports are supposed to obviate the need for and skills are only useful for the damage they deal?

Elementalist. Also known as the profession most reliant on 'playing piano' and often at greatest risk of not having access to a skill they might otherwise use in a reactionary fashion because they're in the wrong attunement. It is the profession with the lowest base armour and health and therefore reliant on skills and traits for defences, but this is mostly in the form of boons and resustain - actual reactive defences like blocks and evades are roughly on the level of most other professions, and probably below the other low-health professions like guardian and thief.

Reactiveness is more important in competitive modes, but that applies to all professions, and applies strongly enough that if the OP is looking to avoid rotation-based gameplay we probably are looking at a PvE environment. However, if we were to look at sPvP... well, I play on Australian ping, and the builds where I feel that is the biggest handicap are thief and greatsword warrior.

[AliamRationem.5172]

27 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Elementalist. Also known as the profession most reliant on 'playing piano' and often at greatest risk of not having access to a skill they might otherwise use in a reactionary fashion because they're in the wrong attunement. It is the profession with the lowest base armour and health and therefore reliant on skills and traits for defences, but this is mostly in the form of boons and resustain - actual reactive defences like blocks and evades are roughly on the level of most other professions, and probably below the other low-health professions like guardian and thief.

Reactiveness is more important in competitive modes, but that applies to all professions, and applies strongly enough that if the OP is looking to avoid rotation-based gameplay we probably are looking at a PvE environment. However, if we were to look at sPvP... well, I play on Australian ping, and the builds where I feel that is the biggest handicap are thief and greatsword warrior.

Disagree that the heavy armor class that craps stability and aegis is more reactive (outside of group PvE).  I also take issue with the idea that elementalist must rely on passive traits/utilities for defense (example of a viper ele build soloing a heavy-hitting champion with full offensive utilities, rune/sigil, and only one passive defense trait selected) and the implication that this is somehow specific to elementalist.  If you aren't capable of effectively utilizing positioning, timing, and active defense, then of course you'll need to rely more heavily on passive defenses.  But that's true of any class.  That other classes have more baseline passive defense does not make them more reactive, but less.

Having said that, I suppose you're right that if we're talking rotations we're probably talking about group PvE.  In that area I agree that only supports are really reactive because it's basically their job to ensure that the DPS don't have to be so that they may stick to their rotations and maximize DPS.  So it might be fair to say that this isn't the best game to play if you hate rotation-heavy gameplay and focus primarily on group PvE.  But if you're more of a solo player or into PvP/WvW, it's a different story.  And in those cases, I think ele is really one of the better picks, depending upon how you play it. 

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Disagree that the heavy armor class that craps stability and aegis is more reactive (outside of group PvE).  I also take issue with the idea that elementalist must rely on passive traits/utilities for defense (example of a viper ele build soloing a heavy-hitting champion with full offensive utilities, rune/sigil, and only one passive defense trait selected) and the implication that this is somehow specific to elementalist.  If you aren't capable of effectively utilizing positioning, timing, and active defense, then of course you'll need to rely more heavily on passive defenses.  But that's true of any class.  That other classes have more baseline passive defense does not make them more reactive, but less.

Your viper weaver example uses resustain from Water (which is part of what I was referring to, but it's healing after the fact) and otherwise from what I could see, just uses dodges and a disengage skill to have the opportunity to resustain. This is... not exactly outside of what pretty much any profession can do in terms of reactive play, since every profession has two dodges and most professions have a disengage. It's skillful, yes, but there are videos of every profession soloing the frog.

Aegis and stability absolutely is reactive in nature as long as you don't have enough of it to keep it up permanently - and nerfs to Mantra of Solace and the stability sources mean that it's usually not practical to try to keep it up all the time just in case.

4 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Having said that, I suppose you're right that if we're talking rotations we're probably talking about group PvE.  In that area I agree that only supports are really reactive because it's basically their job to ensure that the DPS don't have to be so that they may stick to their rotations and maximize DPS.  So it might be fair to say that this isn't the best game to play if you hate rotation-heavy gameplay and focus primarily on group PvE.  But if you're more of a solo player or into PvP/WvW, it's a different story.  And in those cases, I think ele is really one of the better picks, depending upon how you play it. 

I disagree. Elementalist's reliance on going through attunements means that you're at risk of not being in the right attunement to have the skill you want to use reactively when the time to use it comes around, unless you're deliberately holding up your regular rotation to have it. It's one of the big problems with, for example, Catalyst having aegis on the earth sphere - it's great for dropping aegis on the group if you're in Earth or can switch to Earth, but if Earth is on cooldown or you don't have energy, it's just not available.

Guardian? Put Advance on your bar, and the only thing stopping you from using it when you see a big hit about to land is if you've squandered it on something else and the skill itself is on cooldown. And that's something you can do on a DPS build with a minimal loss to DPS - doesn't take a weapon, doesn't require a specific trait, it just one of your utility slots. Now, Tempests do have Aftershock... but that's specific to an elite, and it's a skill with a cast time on an elite specialisation that wants to spend roughly half its time overloading and thus not in a position to use the skill.

This is the sort of thing I think of with 'reactive' - having skills that can be used without advance planning (outside of choosing to have the skill) which can have a significant impact if used correctly in response to a stimulus. There is a lot of skill involved in playing elementalist well, but it usually doesn't involve a higher degree of reactively responding to stimuli than the baseline that every profession can achieve.