Bunkers should not be duelists, this is a glaring issue. Not the only one.

[magickthief.6492]

Bunkering should have essentially zero net damage 9meaning the dps of a bunker will never exceed the healing capacity of a single dps enemy. It should never be a fight of attrition with a bunker. This is a very basic concept. Bunker is okay, but is should not be able to "PUSH" a player off the point with dps. They should only be able to keep themselves alive under pressure, but never have pressure. If a dps has the point, then a bunker should not be able to "take" it. Conversely, if a bunker has the point, a single dps should not be able to take it.

If a bunker has enough dps to force a dps off point, it shouldn't be in the game. SUPER BASIC CONCEPT. And a single dps shouldn't have the DPS to push a bunker off alone. The decision to hold a point has to be one thoughtfully done, and not just derpa kitten.

[Sweetbread.3678]

They really need to cut the duration of most active defenses / escape tools (or greatly increase their cooldowns) and then readd defensive amulets. Bunkers should actually have to invest into defense and glass cannons shouldn't be able to just get out of jail free with a chain block/stealth/whatever if they get caught out. 

[Gamble.4580]

Thats what a bunker is tho it wins decap

[Khalisto.5780]

give us bunker builds that would accomplish that without killing half everything a class has to offer, like you'd have to nerf so many thing to achiev your ideal bunker that all it would be left is bunker builds lol

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Khalisto.5780 said:

give us bunker builds that would accomplish that without killing half everything a class has to offer, like you'd have to nerf so many thing to achiev your ideal bunker that all it would be left is bunker builds lol

Not true at all. take the most bunkery traits, and slap  -% downside to all dmg, problem litterally solved. Bladesworne is the worse thing I have seen in this game since ive played it. Requires a 2v1 to kill it, yet it can kill things 1v1.. absolute monstrosity. Defending such bunkers is quite frankly a show of level.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[youle.5824]

Some dps classes are so squishy they would eventually die to even f1 burn from a support guardian. So if even a healer spec with 0 condition stat can kill slowly decap a dps for example dp thief not running shadow art cleanse, then this idea of bunkers not able to kill anything will never happens with the way the classes are designed. 

Though I agree like most people that some super tanky builds ( czerk, scourge, bsw, at the moment)  shouldnt do that much burst dmg. 

[Kuma.1503]

Problem is, these bunkers are forced to run amulets with 2000/3000 of their stats invested into offense. Doing some amount of damage is inevitable. Yet another reason why removing amulets was a mistake. 

[magickthief.6492]

4 hours ago, youle.5824 said:

Some dps classes are so squishy they would eventually die to even f1 burn from a support guardian. So if even a healer spec with 0 condition stat can kill slowly decap a dps for example dp thief not running shadow art cleanse, then this idea of bunkers not able to kill anything will never happens with the way the classes are designed. 

Though I agree like most people that some super tanky builds ( czerk, scourge, bsw, at the moment)  shouldnt do that much burst dmg. 

Then the game is designed terribly. A DPS dying to a full support guard using only F1, means what? F1 is too strong.

[Kuma.1503]

Dueling is precicely what bunkers should be able to do.

You're sacrificing all utility and teamfight power to be able to win the 1v1. 

The problem is when bunkers aren't making these kinds of sacrifices. Prot Holo at its peak, for example, was dominant in the 1v1, but also had good damge, good teamfight, good utility, good mobility, and good 1vX potental. 

On the opposite end of the specrtum, you had bunker core necro (power) that did nothing but sit on a node and refuse to move or die. It would eventually chip you down through a war of attrition by having more health bar than you. But it was slow, so it could get locked down 1vX. It brought very little to mid fights, and it was useless if it didn't currently have the node vs an enemy bunker. 

So long as bunkers have these kinds of trade-offs I'm fine with them. 

[Zekent.3652]

There are also ranged builds with the sustain of a bunker and the damage of a melee dps, bruh.

there's too much of everything, AoEs, condi bomb, powers burst with a bunch of things in the same build, we need nerfs and real drawbacks.

[Dreams.3128]

On 9/15/2023 at 10:09 PM, Sweetbread.3678 said:

They really need to cut the duration of most active defenses / escape tools (or greatly increase their cooldowns) and then readd defensive amulets. Bunkers should actually have to invest into defense and glass cannons shouldn't be able to just get out of jail free with a chain block/stealth/whatever if they get caught out. 

We did have that, but people said bunkers were too 'degenerate' for gameplay so they gutted the bunker specs (IE Scrapper, Tempest, and somewhat Druid) and made it so we couldn't do that anymore. Bunkers back in the day had NO damage, but people said they were healing/self-sustaining too much, so they took those tools away from those specs and specs like them to turn them either into squishy supports or just half made supports that couldn't do their jobs.

Most of those specs got reworked to be support/damage or just flat out damage dealers now. On top of just the class changes, amulets that were 'bunker'y' were removed entirely, which removed the playstyle for a long while until we started get the more degen crap that we have today. We honestly could have bunkers within the metas, but people are so trauma-induced by HoT Scrapper/Druid/Tempest that they rather deal with builds that can one shot you off the face of the planet or 1v4 you through damage, then ever deal with decapper/point holders. No one can be blamed except the people that wanted those builds to die. Even in 2023 there are STILL people that say they rather deal with the garbage we dealt with recently, than deal with no damage, self-sustain-y bunkers, even though bunkers have a very big playstyle weakness. 

[Eddie.9143]

On 9/15/2023 at 9:29 PM, magickthief.6492 said:

Bunkering should have essentially zero net damage 9meaning the dps of a bunker will never exceed the healing capacity of a single dps enemy. It should never be a fight of attrition with a bunker. This is a very basic concept. Bunker is okay, but is should not be able to "PUSH" a player off the point with dps. They should only be able to keep themselves alive under pressure, but never have pressure. If a dps has the point, then a bunker should not be able to "take" it. Conversely, if a bunker has the point, a single dps should not be able to take it.

If a bunker has enough dps to force a dps off point, it shouldn't be in the game. SUPER BASIC CONCEPT. And a single dps shouldn't have the DPS to push a bunker off alone. The decision to hold a point has to be one thoughtfully done, and not just derpa kitten.

I feel like a bunker should be very slow mobility wise and survive vs DPS forever, but also have the ability to take node by pushing with abilities not damage. 

 

2 dps should always kill a bunker.

The trade off needs to be sure you can bunker your point but my dps will make it to all the fights faster and we'll win the rest of the map

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

On 9/17/2023 at 1:01 AM, Kuma.1503 said:

Dueling is precicely what bunkers should be able to do.

You're sacrificing all utility and teamfight power to be able to win the 1v1. 

The problem is when bunkers aren't making these kinds of sacrifices. Prot Holo at its peak, for example, was dominant in the 1v1, but also had good damge, good teamfight, good utility, good mobility, and good 1vX potental. 

On the opposite end of the specrtum, you had bunker core necro (power) that did nothing but sit on a node and refuse to move or die. It would eventually chip you down through a war of attrition by having more health bar than you. But it was slow, so it could get locked down 1vX. It brought very little to mid fights, and it was useless if it didn't currently have the node vs an enemy bunker. 

So long as bunkers have these kinds of trade-offs I'm fine with them. 

Correct. I'm coming around to this line of thinking myself. See below.

21 hours ago, Eddie.9143 said:

I feel like a bunker should be very slow mobility wise and survive vs DPS forever, but also have the ability to take node by pushing with abilities not damage. 

2 dps should always kill a bunker.

The trade off needs to be sure you can bunker your point but my dps will make it to all the fights faster and we'll win the rest of the map

Correct.

On 9/15/2023 at 9:29 PM, magickthief.6492 said:

If a bunker has enough dps to force a dps off point, it shouldn't be in the game. SUPER BASIC CONCEPT. And a single dps shouldn't have the DPS to push a bunker off alone. The decision to hold a point has to be one thoughtfully done, and not just derpa kitten.

Aren't the current tanky builds just duelists? We don't have any bunkers currently, if I am getting the terminology right.

Is not "pushes people off point 1v1, dies 2v1" a duelist and "can 2v1+ on point" a bunker? If so, the current tanky classes we have are duelists. I had some chit-chat with someone recently about the terminology here, since I tend to throw around "bunker" when something is tanky myself, but should probably pin that down.

I will be referring to any tanky classes that collapse instantly 2v1 as "Duelist" for this (except when I don't due to muscle memory).

The duelist should win cap if a single DPS pushes it on a point. If a duelist couldn't push you off a point, what would be the point of them? they'd be slow, get to the point after the dps, then ... lose the cap to the DPS?

The current iteration, while not personally my cup of tea, is fine. it can push people off point 1v1 but collapses immediately under team pressure and is slow to get to team itself. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Psycoprophet.8107]

On 9/16/2023 at 10:18 PM, magickthief.6492 said:

Then the game is designed terribly. A DPS dying to a full support guard using only F1, means what? F1 is too strong.

Or the dps......sucks. a lot of glass players in this game do not play cautiously and or use the defensive tools within the class properly to avoid being downed, most Yolo in and get spanked and than cry the opponent didn't die to their burst lol.

[Flowki.7194]

On 9/18/2023 at 4:52 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Aren't the current tanky builds just duelists? We don't have any bunkers currently, if I am getting the terminology right.

Is not "pushes people off point 1v1, dies 2v1" a duelist and "can 2v1+ on point" a bunker? If so, the current tanky classes we have are duelists. I had some chit-chat with someone recently about the terminology here, since I tend to throw around "bunker" when something is tanky myself, but should probably pin that down.

I will be referring to any tanky classes that collapse instantly 2v1 as "Duelist" for this (except when I don't due to muscle memory).

The duelist should win cap if a single DPS pushes it on a point. If a duelist couldn't push you off a point, what would be the point of them? they'd be slow, get to the point after the dps, then ... lose the cap to the DPS?

The current iteration, while not personally my cup of tea, is fine. it can push people off point 1v1 but collapses immediately under team pressure and is slow to get to team itself. 

 

Sorry to jump in but what you are saying makes a lot of sense. However, my big problem with these duelists is that they are horrendously easy to play, which means they are more effective at low/moderate skill levles (obviously difficult to master like all specs). I wouldnt mind a duelest that was, for example using many of the engi belts, was complicated, had to actually earn its right to ''take the point''. And tbf none of these duelists just ''collapse'' under 2v1, they take considerable damage or time, where a typical dps/glass would be dead 3x over. I fully beleive part of that reason is way too much passive sustain, and easy mechanics, such as 1 button doing multiple things.

 

There is not a lot of room to force genuine mistakes from such builds, becuase the complexity in mechanics is just not there. If I see a bladesworn or a zerker im litterally thinking this '' he doesn't look like a complete newb? don't bother''.. becuase ill either lose, or the fight will take so long its going to be a 50/50 on who gets +1d first. Its way to basic rock paper scissors, to the point it barely feels about skill. He's playing blade, so I have to be twise as good to even think about contesting.. real fun. That becomes a real issue if you are not playing a spec thats great in groupfights, or if your rng team can't group fight, so you have to play sides. I guess this is more becoming an issue of the mmr range though.

Edited September 20, 2023 by Flowki.7194