Give everyone stealth

[Deadmoose.6594]

On 9/16/2023 at 3:01 PM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

guard

Pretty sure Willbender already has stealth and it's among the dumbest things I've ever seen in GW2 pvp.

[Deadmoose.6594]

13 minutes ago, Okhu.7948 said:

I get nothing but schadenfreude when I come to the forums to read about crybaby nerf stealth posts. In fact it makes me play my stealth build even more.

You seem like the kind of person who only plays OP specs.

[Okhu.7948]

1 hour ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

You seem like the kind of person who only plays OP specs.

You seem like the kind of person who can't play any spec.

[Terrorhuz.4695]

People claiming "thief has no survivability outside stealth" clearly have never gazed upon the unbearable kitten of a s\d daredevil in wvw

Edited September 18, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

5 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

People claiming "thief has no survivability outside stealth" clearly have never gazed upon the unbearable kitten of a s\d daredevil in wvw

People who have gazed upon the unbearable kitten of a s\d daredevil in wvw should realize they're seeing them there because they're too brittle for blobs. 🤷‍♀️

S/D is annoying, sure; but if you're gonna be annoyed at getting picked off, consider that the thieves are rewarded for picking you off and punished anywhere else. The survivability issue you think doesn't exist is literally lending itself to the situation.

[Yerlock.4678]

On 9/16/2023 at 2:01 PM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

War, guard, rev, ele, necro all need stealth.

• Bladesworn should have a grandmaster trait for stealth on dragon trigger so they can RP as a ninja samurai assassin.
• DH should have minor trait that gives stealth when laying a trap.
• Rev ventari bubble should grant stealth to everyone inside.
• Harbinger should get stealth on entering shroud.
• Cata earth jade sphere should be a smoke field.

Game would unironically be more balanced that way. War, guard, necro, ele would finally get to play roamers. Rev would get an actually useful support spec.

yes

[Terrorhuz.4695]

3 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

just outnumber bro

Don't be a forumling, please.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

37 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Don't be a forumling, please.

RE: "Just outnumber bro":

That's not what I said (in this thread, at least. I'm probably saying that in the thread about duelists though~ ).

I'm saying thief survivability is largely tied to stealth instead of directly mitigative mechanics. In situations where stealth is of limited use (like in skirmish groups or zergs), you very rarely have thief contribution, because their builds rely on it so much. That's part of the reason you get harassed in lanes by sword/dagger thieves. That's where their kits work.

I'm assuming you -also- have a problem with sword dagger thief, or you wouldn't have reacted like that. So even in low stealth situations thief interactions will be a problem, I am concluding. Great.

All I'm saying is something is going to have to give. Thieves will need some kind of mitigative mechanic, whether that is stealth or whack a mole whatever else. You won't be able to argue that thieves will be fine if they were forced to play more visibly across the board without a provision that supports that, and you don't even like that situation when it does happen.

So~ 🤷‍♀️ I mean, just hate thieves? I don't like interacting with power block mesmers but I respect they have the right to fight like that.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

12 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

So~ 🤷‍♀️ I mean, just hate thieves? I don't like interacting with power block mesmers but I respect they have the right to fight like that.

I mean, I do, but the point I was trying to make was more on the line of "you gotta be snorting gallons of glue to claim thief has no defensives", the main problem with thief has always been the totally bloated amount of defensive mechanics. I'll take stuff like sb2 (even if it single-handedly tears mesmers apart) over any button-spammer-of-one-skill-which-is-totally-defensive-but-it-also-kind-of-kittening-kills-you. At least I'll feel outplayed a little when I'm dead, instead of just cheated on.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

33 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I mean, I do, but the point I was trying to make was more on the line of "you gotta be snorting gallons of glue to claim thief has no defensives", the main problem with thief has always been the totally bloated amount of defensive mechanics. I'll take stuff like sb2 (even if it single-handedly tears mesmers apart) over any button-spammer-of-one-skill-which-is-totally-defensive-but-it-also-kind-of-kittening-kills-you. At least I'll feel outplayed a little when I'm dead, instead of just cheated on.

I mean... I'm probably on my glue arc then? 

Like sure, pistol whip evades, but it also eats like...half your global cooldown on a kit where only two of your buttons hit for anything

sure, death blossom evades but it also eats like...half your global cooldown on a kit where only two of your buttons hit for anything

yadda yadda larcenous strike, yadda yadda two buttons hit for anything

There are defensives, sure. but the point I am trying to arrive at is that the defensives outside of stealth are so short, and so costly, that you cannot reasonably expect a thief to rely on those for the bulk of their damage mitigation. Staff vault hits for a hell of a lot. It also evades. It also costs 6 init to use and nobody runs it. Further, not a single other class is held to that standard of play on this game. 

So whenever I see "remove stealth post" # 4367, that just assumes they're going to be fine because 3dodge and because shortbow 3 or whatever in the current meta (or pretends to think so), I can't take it seriously. It assumes that the people who are playing those kits to any effect are 

a.) spamming of their own volition, like the kits have any other damage buttons to press per weapon set

b.) doing so mindlessly.

c.) have enough coverage to keep themselves alive and kill their opponent just in the weapon set/utility lineup and are actively choosing not to do so

Hate the playstyle if you want, but be honest about it. If mesmer had to rely on half second distortions and half second aegis that made you temporarily unable to use your damage skills, you'd be able to power turbines with the steam coming out of your ears. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[vilesoldier.9826]

19 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I mean... I'm probably on my glue arc then? 

Like sure, pistol whip evades, but it also eats like...half your global cooldown on a kit where only two of your buttons hit for anything

sure, death blossom evades but it also eats like...half your global cooldown on a kit where only two of your buttons hit for anything

yadda yadda larcenous strike, yadda yadda two buttons hit for anything

There are defensives, sure. but the point I am trying to arrive at is that the defensives outside of stealth are so short, and so costly, that you cannot reasonably expect a thief to rely on those for the bulk of their damage mitigation. Staff vault hits for a hell of a lot. It also evades. It also costs 6 init to use and nobody runs it. Further, not a single other class is held to that standard of play on this game. 

So whenever I see "remove stealth post" # 4367, that just assumes they're going to be fine because 3dodge and because shortbow 3 or whatever in the current meta (or pretends to think so), I can't take it seriously. It assumes that the people who are playing those kits to any effect are 

a.) spamming of their own volition, like the kits have any other damage buttons to press per weapon set

b.) doing so mindlessly.

c.) have enough coverage to keep themselves alive and kill their opponent just in the weapon set/utility lineup and are actively choosing not to do so

Hate the playstyle if you want, but be honest about it. If mesmer had to rely on half second distortions and half second aegis that made you temporarily unable to use your damage skills, you'd be able to power turbines with the steam coming out of your ears. 

 

Imma need this kind of analysis for p/p bound dd. Convince me why thieves have to play that weaponset the way they do.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

Imma need this kind of analysis for p/p bound dd. Convince me why thieves have to play that weaponset the way they do.

As a P/P bound daredevil, I can confirm we're just petty and evil and like causing suffering. 

(its because unload is the only damaging weapon skill and costs 6 init, and the set has no defensive skills, but DOES have black powder. So bound/black powder becomes the defensive. It's also slow because there's no mobility on it, but hey, stealth helps with that!

And because we're evil.) 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

As a P/P bound daredevil, I can confirm we're just petty and evil and like causing suffering. 

 

 

I mean, as long as you're aware.

And it's not even you specifically, it's just a playstyle that's the same for so many that slot it, and I'm curious whether it's a choice thing or not 🤔

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

21 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

I mean, as long as you're aware.

And it's not even you specifically, it's just a playstyle that's the same for so many that slot it, and I'm curious whether it's a choice thing or not 🤔

Oh ye, I chose to be evil. I'll own that. I hold a grudge for the loss of ricochet.

I made HOPE for the sole purpose of being annoying (but not as annoying as Quip spammers.)

When I play that though, I never run an escape kit (like shortbow, I guess. Not that I'd have the init to run). I run D/D on my alternate set so I am committed to one fight at a time.

I can play other things, but I get complaint whispers from everything from rifle to D/P so I don't feel bad leaning into the worst one if it means I can run double blasters. To be fair though, I can count on one hand the amount of thieves I am aware of that run pistol pistol without being a meme. Don't even need all my fingers.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Kuma.1503]

I've advocated for reveal on cast a number of times. Usually it's because other classes that aren't thief are doing gross things with it. 

But if we do this, we will have to look into giving thief some love because they will become unplayable afterwards. For better or worse, it's been nerfed heavily around stealth. The resource costs are bloated to high heavens, and stealth gives them space to wait out their cooldowns. 

They can't just spam like the rest of us. 

 

The first thing that came to mind was giving SA a minor trait that makes combo finishers not reveal you. Specifically so heart seeker to extend stealth is still possible. 

 

Another thing that would need to happen is that either thief's ini costs need to come way down, or they need some way to get ini back. I'm just spitballing ideas again, but what if Vault kept it's 6 ini cost, but refunded half if you land it. I'm not sure what would need to happen, but we definitely cannot leave thief as is if we nerf stealth. Mobility creep has already robbed them of their main niche. Stealth is the last thing thief has going for it. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I've advocated for reveal on cast a number of times. 

But if we do this, we will have to look into giving thief some love because they will become unplayable afterwards. For better or worse, it's been nerfed heavily around stealth. The resource costs are bloated to high heavens, and stealth gives them space to wait out their cooldowns. 

They can't just spam like the rest of us. 

The first thing that came to mind was giving SA a minor trait that makes combo finishers not reveal you. Specifically so heart seeker to extend stealth is still possible. 

Another thing that would need to happen is that either thief's ini costs need to come way down, or they need some way to get ini back. I'm just spitballing ideas again, but what if Vault kept it's 6 ini cost, but refunded half if you land it. I'm not sure what would need to happen, but we definitely cannot leave thief as is if we nerf stealth. Mobility creep has already robbed them of their main niche. Stealth is the last thing thief has going for it. 

It's refreshing to see balanced takes. I don't mind playing fair, but I will immediately see through any assumption that the problem is as simple as "remove stealth" or "make black powder not be a stealth finisher" or some other obvious kneecapping. Some of yall are vultureous. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Curennos.9307]

I agree, everyone should get stealth.

Permanently. Forever. All players vanish from the face of Tyria. No more attacks allowed because they would take you out of stealth, can't have that.

[vilesoldier.9826]

2 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

It's refreshing to see balanced takes. I don't mind playing fair, but I will immediately see through any assumption that the problem is as simple as "remove stealth" or "make black powder not be a stealth finisher" or some other obvious kneecapping. Some of yall are vultureous. 

 

There's a lot of places thief balance can start, and I'm just gonna propose one that I don't think is that crazy

-Remove the initial blind from the projectile part of black powder

[Burnfall.9573]

this is what it would look like if every Professions have stealth in WvW. Now imagine this in PvP...

-Invisible Wars-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9w7xqKDP28

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

17 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

There's a lot of places thief balance can start, and I'm just gonna propose one that I don't think is that crazy

-Remove the initial blind from the projectile part of black powder

Fine, but the projectile doesn't hit for anything, so might as well just pull the projectile entirely if you wanna go that route and let the field drop faster. 90% of thieves just want the blind field and the projectile is a happy bonus.

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[vilesoldier.9826]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Fine, but the projectile doesn't hit for anything, so might as well just pull the projectile entirely if you wanna go that route and let the field drop faster. 

 

 

I mean, my change wouldn't remove blinding projectiles from black powder, it's specifically targeting that double-interaction of the initial blind + projectile-finisher blind that leads to 4s of blind on every cast. Just wanna bring it down to 2 (or I think its 2.5s).

 

Granted, I rly don't mind having to dodge a blinding projectile, but like does it need to be 4s tho?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

I mean, my change wouldn't remove blinding projectiles from black powder, it's specifically targeting that double-interaction of the initial blind + projectile-finisher blind that leads to 4s of blind on every cast. Just wanna bring it down to 2 (or I think its 2.5s).

 

Granted, I rly don't mind having to dodge a blinding projectile, but like does it need to be 4s tho?

I don't mind this either. I am perfectly fine with having to time this more strictly either way. Whether you don't want a projectile at all or want a 2 second blind compared to a 4 second one, either is reasonable. 90% of the time I am going to leap or blast the field and don't need to hit you with the projectile. I'd imagine this would make it easier to interrupt me but the only classes that don't do that already are... warrior, and they have to be right up on me to interrupt me, which will likely involve them touching the blind field anyway. Risk doesn't change, still will watch to see if they have resistance.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[vilesoldier.9826]

1 minute ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I don't mind this either. I am perfectly fine with having to time this more strictly either way. Whether you don't want a projectile at all or want a 2 second blind compared to a 4 second one, either is reasonable. 

 

A 2s blind is much more manageable, the projectile should stay.

Just bringing it up bc getting resistance is a 30-energy endeavor for me, pressing that for a single blind (that'll probably just get extended depending on whether the thief decides to stealth attack from the smoke-field) makes me big sad 😞

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

4 minutes ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

A 2s blind is much more manageable, the projectile should stay.

Just bringing it up bc getting resistance is a 30-energy endeavor for me, pressing that for a single blind (that'll probably just get extended depending on whether the thief decides to stealth attack from the smoke-field) makes me big sad 😞

Understandable, and wouldn't be opposed~

2 seconds is still a lot of time for a blind, most skills you want to blind come out in that time anyhow.  

 

[vilesoldier.9826]

7 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Understandable, and wouldn't be opposed~

2 seconds is still a lot of time for a blind, most skills you want to blind come out in that time anyhow.  

 

 

I think it's a good start, for sure.

Personally, I think waiting out a blind should be an option vs a thief. Obviously not the best option (dodging blinding skills and mitigation is a mark of a good player), but as it is rn this is my face while I silently duel any p/p thief https://imgflip.com/i/7zll9z