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It has been said before - Bellular says it now


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Let's see if the timestamp works: Otherwise it is 01:40 in (if you are a content creator, even listening to the first 01:40 mins is a good listen)

I've pointed out before that engagement in a computer game is like a maslowian stair: It is a decending order of care, investment and engagement from ideal health to death.

For example:

  1. Things are near perfect and people only give positive suggestions on how to improve even more (this barely exists in games development)
  2. People give only constructive critcism and suggestions - this indicates that the game is very healthy and that is rare
  3. People are frustrated and begin to falter on being constructive with their criticism - this signals that the game is rather healthy even if behaviour isn't on point
  4. People are seemingly very upset - this isn't nearly as big of a problem as some may think it is - it indicates that people still care passionately about the game
  5. People are largely beginning to clown, meme and mostly be sarcastic - this signals severe brooding trouble in your game as engagement and care is dropping
  6. People are beginning to become more and more silent and uninvested - they may still stir to anger but mostly seem docile and accepting - this indicates major retention problems - so it isn't a good sign even if people are being accepting rather than angry
  7. People who quit do not speak - and people who are silent or quit are less and less likely to return, more so the longer time flows on - if you've lost them you've lost them for good or for much more effort to repair rapport (WR may have been enough before, is it now? etc.).

On the death of games:

People may have been claiming that WvW "is dying" for years, with more or less accuracy (since more players than necessary have been trickling out, but it sure is taking its time and may not have gained as much momentum at first or during certain periods of more or less hope, cope or bandaging). However, the one thing that really freightens me regarding the health- and future of WvW is that I am beginning to see players care much less. It is the effort given when talking about the game, but it is also the effort given when playing the game. Ambitions and expectations are reaching some kind of floor - and much of the knowledgebase we have built up over 10 odd years is beginning to disappear. Some of that may be from important players- and player groups disappearing, with little rebirth by comparison, but I also see it in how we transfer- or pass on the knowledge we have: What we expect people to know, broadly, in- or about WvW and what kind of effort is put into that (such as welcomming and providing for new players etc.) or how diverse our content is and how much types of subcontent affect each other (how does 10- and 25-man groups match up if 15-man groups are becomming rare, for example). That isn't something to just scoff at and hang the players for. It is part of the playerbase's broad engagement in the gamemode and how ArenaNet's effort and expectations are mirrored in our own as players.

We are quite far down that stair now - just looking at the devblog's reception - and it clearly isn't just me who sees it, knows about it or looks at it in the same terms as Bellular. If I'm concerned about ArenaNet, GW2 or WvW as a whole, this is the reason.

What was once a discussion more or less only about size- or amount of players, is sharply becomming more and more about who has players that hold knowledge about WvW (or provides content in WvW, within a world or between worlds). For Alliances: What was a large, powerful alliance in 2018 is creeping dangerously small in 2023. What was 500 became 250 and now even having just 100 players can be exceedingly powerful for a world within remaining content.

 

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
Bold headers, spelling, more spelling/phrasing (I clearly wrote this like a donkey after a full day at work)
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Screw Maslow.  The guy's approach was unscientific and doesn't explain situations for everyone.  Like, some/many people reach or skip to the different steps in their gaming habits years before others despite whatever the company's engagement is.

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We've been on step 5 for five years.

Usually it takes a major event with the game in order to proceed with the next step, is the announcement of alliances postponed enough to accelerate to the next two steps? Where people will finally begin to accept we're not going to get the WR project as intended, where it may lead to another disruptive disaster in the player communities, and frankly it's all been too long in the works that it might do more harm than good.

What comes next if alliances is delayed, with the snail development pace they've maintained on wvw for the past five years, who knows when it'll be done. What about the afterwards, another five years for the seasons/guild achievements to be done? Or is wvw in full maintenance mode after WR, thereby triggering players to feel there's really no point left to playing wvw anymore. We're at the point where players are just playing for measly rewards. A lot of things have already disappeared from wvw, guilds, commanders, borderland mothers, defense and havoc crews, actual reason to win, reason to ppt. We might as well just plug skirmish rewards in eotm and call it the end.

Anet is lucky wvw has been as popular as it has for this many years despite their lack of attention, they don't care about maintaining their current customers happiness, they care about chasing the next group of players to fund them. Which is what a business needs to constantly do, but for a mmo you need to retain players in order for them to reinvest in the game for the long run, so you need to keep them content and happy, not string them along on silence and broken promises.

In any case, this all doesn't matter to them.

For you, the day (wvw launched, tournaments happened, desert bombed, links created, skirmish launched, legendaries added, 1u1d, alliances announced, cornerstone declared, outnumbered pips disappeared, wrbeta12345678, alliances delayed) graced your pc, was the most important days of your gaming life, but for anet, it was tuesday....

Edited by XenesisII.1540
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3 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Let's see if the timestamp works: Otherwise it is 01:40 in (if you are a content creator, even listening to the first 01:40 mins is a good listen)

I've pointed out before that engagement in a computer game is like a maslowian stair: It is a decending order of care, investment and engagement from ideal health to death.

For example:

  1. Things are near perfect and people only give positive suggestions on how to improve even more (this barely exists in games development)
  2. People give only constructive critcism and suggestions - this indicates that the game is very healthy and that is rare
  3. People are frustrated and begin to falter on being constructive with their criticism - this signals that the game is rather healthy even if behaviour isn't on point
  4. People are seemingly very upset - this isn't nearly as big of a problem as some may think it is - it indicates that people still care passionately about the game
  5. People are largely beginning to clown, meme and mostly be sarcastic - this signals severe brooding trouble in your game as engagement and care is dropping
  6. People are beginning to become more and more silent and uninvested - they may still stir to anger but mostly seem docile and accepting - this indicates major retention problems - so it isn't a good sign even if people are being accepting rather than angry
  7. People who quit do not speak - and people who are silent or quit are less and less likely to return, more so the longer time flows on - if you've lost them you've lost them for good or for much more effort to repair rapport (WR may have been enough before, is it now? etc.).

On the death of games:

People may have been claiming that WvW "is dying" for years, with more or less accuracy (since more players than necessary have been trickling out, but it sure is taking its time and may not have gained as much momentum at first or during certain periods of more or less hope, cope or bandaging). However, the one thing that really freightens me regarding the health- and future of WvW is that I am beginning to see players care much less. It is the effort given when talking about the game, but it is also the effort given when playing the game. Ambitions and expectations are reaching some kind of floor - and much of the knowledgebase we have built up over 10 odd years is beginning to disappear. Some of that may be from important players- and player groups disappearing, with little rebirth by comparison, but I also see it in how we transfer- or pass on the knowledge we have: What we expect people to know, broadly, in- or about WvW and what kind of effort is put into that (such as welcomming and providing for new players etc.) or how diverse our content is and how much types of subcontent affect each other (how does 10- and 25-man groups match up if 15-man groups are becomming rare, for example). That isn't something to just scoff at and hang the players for. It is part of the playerbase's broad engagement in the gamemode and how ArenaNet's effort and expectations are mirrored in our own as players.

We are quite far down that stair now - just looking at the devblog's reception - and it clearly isn't just me who sees it, knows about it or looks at it in the same terms as Bellular. If I'm concerned about ArenaNet, GW2 or WvW as a whole, this is the reason.

What was once a discussion more or less only about size- or amount of players, is sharply becomming more and more about who has players that hold knowledge about WvW (or provides content in WvW, within a world or between worlds). For Alliances: What was a large, powerful alliance in 2018 is creeping dangerously small in 2023. What was 500 became 250 and now even having just 100 players can be exceedingly powerful for a world within remaining content.

 

Thank You! for taking the time to post this great video alongside with your post. 

Edited by Burnfall.9573
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1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

We've been on step 5 for five years.

Usually it takes a major event with the game in order to proceed with the next step, is the announcement of alliances postponed enough to accelerate to the next two steps? Where people will finally begin to accept we're not going to get the WR project as intended, where it may lead to another disruptive disaster in the player communities, and frankly it's all been too long in the works that it might do more harm than good.

What comes next if alliances is delayed, with the snail development pace they've maintained on wvw for the past five years, who knows when it'll be done. What about the afterwards, another five years for the seasons/guild achievements to be done? Or is wvw in full maintenance mode after WR, thereby triggering players to feel there's really no point left to playing wvw anymore. We're at the point where players are just playing for measly rewards. A lot of things have already disappeared from wvw, guilds, commanders, borderland mothers, defense and havoc crews, actual reason to win, reason to ppt. We might as well just plug skirmish rewards in eotm and call it the end.

Anet is lucky wvw has been as popular as it has for this many years despite their lack of attention, they don't care about maintaining their current customers happiness, they care about chasing the next group of players to fund them. Which is what a business needs to constantly do, but for a mmo you need to retain players in order for them to reinvest in the game for the long run, so you need to keep them content and happy, not string them along on silence and broken promises.

In any case, this all doesn't matter to them.

For you, the day (wvw launched, tournaments happened, desert bombed, links created, skirmish launched, legendaries added, 1u1d, alliances announced, cornerstone declared, outnumbered pips disappeared, wrbeta12345678, alliances delayed) graced your pc, was the most important days of your life, but for anet, it was tuesday....

You're 100% on point with everything and I completely side with you.

Edited by Burnfall.9573
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Well, anet gave up on competitive side of the game when they ruined objective and open field balance with siege changes, tactivators and stat buffs.

Soon dueling, GvGs, server communities etc, died. Might be couple mediocre duelers, commanders and GvG guilds around, but all the top players are not around anymore.

If there is nothing fair to compete or organise for, people stop communicating and getting invested.

I just brought little bit light on reasons why real WvW has died, not just talking about symptoms of it. They could have quit the development of the gamemode when it was in good state, but they stopped right after thrashing everything that was holding people together. WvW is just a joke or social game now and very few think open tags or guild raids are competitive anymore.

Edited by Riba.3271
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12 hours ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

Thank You! for taking the time to post this great video alongside with your post. 

Burn, 🙂 as I tried to imply posts are good, points are good, video by themselves are not without points. You said and I agree the link and way Sub did make a better point. So hope that makes more sense from prior replies to you. Video are ok, making points on the video leave lesss questions and apply better points. I don't deny to being a kitten, but I try and not be random one. I still and go half full and want forums to add value for future changes so we get more options in WvW. So post on, I hope this makes more sense if I counter posts and say that may have done better.

lol, Chaba has also helped me to see when I could have done better. 

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On 9/18/2023 at 12:14 PM, XenesisII.1540 said:

We've been on step 5 for five years.

Usually it takes a major event with the game in order to proceed with the next step, is the announcement of alliances postponed enough to accelerate to the next two steps?

We have been step 6 and 7 for five years already too. Entire guilds have evaporated since pof release and the subsequent nerf waves. It's been so long that "new" people are already reaching step 5.

Anet would have been better off just releasing more wvw rewards through vendors than promising some magical fix for player tendencies.

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i think they said not long ago that wvw has a higher population than pvp and all pve instanced content combined? its currently second only to pve open-world in popularity, which is an extremely high population given that pvp environments are niche to begin with.

 

some recent estimations by the community put the population at around 10,000 players, more than some entire indie mmos. it likely just doesn't "feel" that way because firstly, alot of modern wvw players are far more casual than in the past, and secondly, the server and map systems hide the true player counts, spreading players out all over the place especially in the weaker timezones.

 

even after over a decade, you can hit up to something around 4,000 players on reset night just in a single region, and that's only players who make it in. there's usually far more queued, typically another hundred or so per matchup and tier.

 

does the game mode need work? very much yes, but is it dead? very much no.

Edited by SoftFootpaws.9134
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12 hours ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i think they said not long ago that wvw has a higher population than pvp and all pve instanced content combined? its currently second only to pve open-world in popularity, which is an extremely high population given that pvp environments are niche to begin with.

 

some recent estimations by the community put the population at around 10,000 players, more than some entire indie mmos. it likely just doesn't "feel" that way because firstly, alot of modern wvw players are far more casual than in the past, and secondly, the server and map systems hide the true player counts, spreading players out all over the place especially in the weaker timezones.

 

even after over a decade, you can hit up to something around 4,000 players on reset night just in a single region, and that's only players who make it in. there's usually far more queued, typically another hundred or so per matchup and tier.

 

does the game mode need work? very much yes, but is it dead? very much no.

This is generally true. Most servers have very high activity on reset night and weekends and then it wanes throughout the week. By thursday, there are very few queues, if any. And this only happens during prime time NA. You get into maps in the morning or afternoon it is generally desolate. Maybe 1 map has good activity if the server has a decent OCX/EU population, but those are exceptions and not the rule. 

That said, I reckon it is undeniable that WvW is in decline. Roaming and Havok in general is dead due to warclaws and balance and structure buffs. Alliance momentum, especially in the last year with the Betas, created a tendency for "competitive" guilds to band together in megaguilds in preparation for Alliances launch, further damaging havok and smaller guilds. Widening the breach, groups of similar skill level will band together, leaving high skilled blobs vs lower skilled blobs, which results in "breaking your toys" and/or content denial.

Moving maps on high activity nights is nigh impossible for these blobs so that just leaves logging out of WvW, either because you are getting farmed if weak or there is nothing to farm because you are too strong. Balance changes to target caps, boon creep and lowering strips also contribute to an increased difficulty in fighting outnumbered, furthering the need to bunch up and feeding into the cycle described before. 

I certainly don't play WvW for the rewards (anymore) as I have literally everything in terms of legendary gear. Yet 5 nights a week I'm there with my guild because of the connections I've made with guildies and the (more and more infrequent) thrill of good fights for our 15 man group. But I dont play off hours anymore. I don't roam anymore. I don't really play the game at all unless its the 2 hours 5 nights a week with my guild. Is it because I dont need to farm anything? Yeah kinda, but I've had all my stuff for a couple years now, and I was playing a lot more (roaming especially) last year than this one. It's just my preferred game mode is now much less appealing AS A GAME to me, and I just go through the motions of it because I enjoy my guild. Cherry on top is all the baiting and lying from Anet devs about alliances, this past expac with no elite specs, the 1 year calendar of dribbling "content"... It's all tainted my experience tbh. 

Sorry I kinda derailed myself, but I guess I'm trying to point out that the veteran that still plays isn't doing it for rewards, they do it out of enjoyment for the game and community (big or small). And if the enjoyment of the game keeps dropping, the community will not be enough at some point. And with new players are having an increasingly difficult time at entry to permeate these established groups, little knowledge transfer happens, and the near impossiblity of being an inexperienced roamer... I dont see much hope for retention. 

Things need to change pretty abrutply, starting with Anet devs being honest to themselves and us. And then following up with a plan to reinvigorate interest and further repair the damage they themselves have spawned upon WvW culture and the community around it. Or y'know, let it die like PvP.

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43 minutes ago, devastoscz.9851 said:

This is generally true. Most servers have very high activity on reset night and weekends and then it wanes throughout the week. By thursday, there are very few queues, if any. And this only happens during prime time NA. You get into maps in the morning or afternoon it is generally desolate. Maybe 1 map has good activity if the server has a decent OCX/EU population, but those are exceptions and not the rule. 

That said, I reckon it is undeniable that WvW is in decline. Roaming and Havok in general is dead due to warclaws and balance and structure buffs. Alliance momentum, especially in the last year with the Betas, created a tendency for "competitive" guilds to band together in megaguilds in preparation for Alliances launch, further damaging havok and smaller guilds. Widening the breach, groups of similar skill level will band together, leaving high skilled blobs vs lower skilled blobs, which results in "breaking your toys" and/or content denial.

Moving maps on high activity nights is nigh impossible for these blobs so that just leaves logging out of WvW, either because you are getting farmed if weak or there is nothing to farm because you are too strong. Balance changes to target caps, boon creep and lowering strips also contribute to an increased difficulty in fighting outnumbered, furthering the need to bunch up and feeding into the cycle described before. 

I certainly don't play WvW for the rewards (anymore) as I have literally everything in terms of legendary gear. Yet 5 nights a week I'm there with my guild because of the connections I've made with guildies and the (more and more infrequent) thrill of good fights for our 15 man group. But I dont play off hours anymore. I don't roam anymore. I don't really play the game at all unless its the 2 hours 5 nights a week with my guild. Is it because I dont need to farm anything? Yeah kinda, but I've had all my stuff for a couple years now, and I was playing a lot more (roaming especially) last year than this one. It's just my preferred game mode is now much less appealing AS A GAME to me, and I just go through the motions of it because I enjoy my guild. Cherry on top is all the baiting and lying from Anet devs about alliances, this past expac with no elite specs, the 1 year calendar of dribbling "content"... It's all tainted my experience tbh. 

Sorry I kinda derailed myself, but I guess I'm trying to point out that the veteran that still plays isn't doing it for rewards, they do it out of enjoyment for the game and community (big or small). And if the enjoyment of the game keeps dropping, the community will not be enough at some point. And with new players are having an increasingly difficult time at entry to permeate these established groups, little knowledge transfer happens, and the near impossiblity of being an inexperienced roamer... I dont see much hope for retention. 

Things need to change pretty abrutply, starting with Anet devs being honest to themselves and us. And then following up with a plan to reinvigorate interest and further repair the damage they themselves have spawned upon WvW culture and the community around it. Or y'know, let it die like PvP.

+1 feel the same way...

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