Let's talk about Bladeturn Requiem

[Seventh Ranger.3968]

I think we can all agree that right now it's kind of a "non-skill", not really worth using in pretty much any situation, because it does nothing, and wastes blades. We also all know why it had its block removed, because while I never really thought pre-nerf Virtuoso was all that hard to deal with, it certainly was annoying. So if the F5 is gonna lose its block, then it needs to get something else in order to make it still a useful skill that's worth using.

If it's going to remain a defensive skill, like it was before, then my vote is for it to heal based on blades consumed. I think it should heal for an initial amount, and then heal for more per hit, so it requires some skill and deliberate intent, to get the full value out of it. It could instead provide damage reduction for a duration based on blades, which is a suggestion I've heard before, but I personally think healing is more clear to both the user and enemies, instead of damage reduction where both you and enemies have to guess how much extra damage it will take for you to die.

Another thing to consider is that it might be a good idea to change the way it deals damage. Without the blocking capability, having it be a melee range skill doesn't make much sense anymore, so I was thinking it might make more sense to make it a ranged skill, like the rest of the Bladesongs. Allowing the spinning blades to be cast at a distance, kind of like Unstable Bladestorm (Dagger 3), would allow it to be much less suicidal to try and use, and also opens up the possibility of having it be turned into an offensive skill instead of a defensive one, if people don't think it should remain defensive. Instead of healing or providing damage reduction, the numbers on it could simply be bumped up so that it actually does damage, and it would become another offensive Bladesong, like the F1, F2, and F3.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on the subject? Agree, disagree, other ideas for fixing Bladeturn Requiem?

(P.S. Another thing that needs to be done to help out Virtuoso in PvE is to change the cooldown of Blade Renewal to match its PvP cooldown. It makes no sense that it wasn't given the same compensation buff in PvE that it got in PvP.)

Edited September 23 by Seventh Ranger.3968
Adding to the post.

[Downstate.4697]

Or they could make bleeds relevant so it has some practical use

[ArthurDent.9538]

Should have never added distortion to virtuoso and kept the block on requiem. The spec has all unique shatters that mirror the core counterparts and requiem mirrored distortion. There were other ways to buff virtuoso if they felt it was necessary than doubling up on their defensive shatter.

[Seventh Ranger.3968]

6 hours ago, Downstate.4697 said:

Or they could make bleeds relevant so it has some practical use

That too, bleeding is one of the weakest conditions, for seemingly no reason. Unless they want Virtuoso to exclusively be a condi spec though, it's gonna need some sort of other buff too, to make it useful for power builds.

[Seventh Ranger.3968]

6 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Should have never added distortion to virtuoso and kept the block on requiem. The spec has all unique shatters that mirror the core counterparts and requiem mirrored distortion. There were other ways to buff virtuoso if they felt it was necessary than doubling up on their defensive shatter.

Honestly, I kind of get why they let Virtuoso keep distortion, cuz the old F5 could be countered by unblockable, and it was channeled, so you couldn't really do much during it. I think you only got 1.5 seconds of time where you were still blocking, but not channeling, so it was a pretty limited defensive skill compared to distortion, and easily countered if the enemy used something that gave them the unblockable effect.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Should have never added distortion to virtuoso and kept the block on requiem.

This

Them having to add distortion to mes because they overestimated peoples ability to juggle aegis is really funny though

Quote

easily countered if the enemy used something that gave them the unblockable effect

Good. Then they can dodge or press their invuln utility instead like everyone else~

Edited September 23 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:10 PM, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Should have never added distortion to virtuoso and kept the block on requiem. The spec has all unique shatters that mirror the core counterparts and requiem mirrored distortion.

Oh God someone in this forum with some common sense, THANK YOU.

[WhoWantsAHug.3186]

On 9/23/2023 at 10:10 AM, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Should have never added distortion to virtuoso and kept the block on requiem. The spec has all unique shatters that mirror the core counterparts and requiem mirrored distortion. There were other ways to buff virtuoso if they felt it was necessary than doubling up on their defensive shatter.

Yea, remove distortion from virt and include Bladeturn Requiem in Auspicious Anguish, so virt has more access to condi clear and inspi isn't baseline requirement in PvP. 

[Penor.4651]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:10 PM, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Nunca deveria ter adicionado distorção ao virtuoso e mantido o bloqueio em réquiem. A especificação tem todos os estilhaços exclusivos que espelham as contrapartes do núcleo e a distorção espelhada de réquiem. Havia outras maneiras de buff virtuoso se eles sentissem que era necessário do que dobrar em seu estilhaço defensivo.

I think the same

[Seventh Ranger.3968]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:21 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

This

Them having to add distortion to mes because they overestimated peoples ability to juggle aegis is really funny though

Good. Then they can dodge or press their invuln utility instead like everyone else~

So what would their elite spec profession skill be then, if they go down to only having 4 shatters? Also, what would keep them from falling behind other mesmer specs, without distortion?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Meanwhile vindi can chain blocks and evades forever.

Self-sabotaging mesmers uber alles

[Terrorhuz.4695]

11 hours ago, Seventh Ranger.3968 said:

So what would their elite spec profession skill be then, if they go down to only having 4 shatters? Also, what would keep them from falling behind other mesmer specs, without distortion?

There is no concept as "elite spec profession skill". There are shatters, those are the mechanics. Chronomancer shouldn't have access to distortion (if anything, and that's a stretch, I could accept a channeled invulnerability like diamond skin, but NOT core distortion), nor virtuoso (they get the channeled block, which is weaker but it also has a much lower cd and procs some shatter traits multiple times; IIRC Bountiful Disillusionment turns the mesmer into a pulsing AoE boonrip and Maim the Disillusioned turns the mesmer into a pulsing AoE torment well)

Edited September 26 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Roadkizzle.2157]

2 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

There is no concept as "elite spec profession skill". There are shatters, those are the mechanics. Chronomancer shouldn't have access to distortion (if anything, and that's a stretch, I could accept a channeled invulnerability like diamond skin, but NOT core distortion), nor virtuoso (they get the channeled block, which is weaker but it also has a much lower cd and procs some shatter traits multiple times; IIRC Bountiful Disillusionment turns the mesmer into a pulsing AoE boonrip and Maim the Disillusioned turns the mesmer into a pulsing AoE torment well)

I think Chronomancer needs the Distortion.

It's already the most fragile Mesmer eSpec because it doesn't heal with condi damage like the Virtuoso or have constant Dodge and Evade uptime as the Mirage.

 

Distortion isn't abusable with Continuum Shift because you lose all the Clones with Continuum Shift so you don't have a long Distortion.

[dead.7638]

On 9/23/2023 at 5:21 PM, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Good. Then they can dodge or press their invuln utility instead like everyone else~

This is mesmers invul skill. 

[dead.7638]

Also leave CS alone.   In competitive it can be a death sentence if the person knows you’ll be back in the same position 2 seconds later.   How did this become a nerf distortion thread?

[dead.7638]

F5 block is gone, I’m sure everyone has mourned long enough.   F5 still gives trait aegis, it’s okay.   It’s also an instant cast.   Meaning you can chain the small amount of dmg with other skills, again this is okay.   However, using the skill still seems questionable as it can be a waste of resources.   And that’s the real problem for me.   When I have to question myself if the skill is even worth using or waiting for the cd on f1 to pop.   Maybe I needed the aegis… and I have for sure.   But that is me investing a trait for only one block from virts most unique skill.   Seems lame.   If it doesn’t get a defensive capability back the dmg needs to be buffed.   I wouldn’t mind a scaling effect on dmg each time you stand in the blades.   And add in extra bleed for a condi variation.

Edited September 26 by dead.7638

[dead.7638]

23 hours ago, WhoWantsAHug.3186 said:

Yea, remove distortion from virt and include Bladeturn Requiem in Auspicious Anguish, so virt has more access to condi clear and inspi isn't baseline requirement in PvP. 

But they nerfed chaos trait line around the same time, so you’re asking to nerf it even more?

[Seventh Ranger.3968]

4 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

There is no concept as "elite spec profession skill". There are shatters, those are the mechanics. Chronomancer shouldn't have access to distortion (if anything, and that's a stretch, I could accept a channeled invulnerability like diamond skin, but NOT core distortion), nor virtuoso (they get the channeled block, which is weaker but it also has a much lower cd and procs some shatter traits multiple times; IIRC Bountiful Disillusionment turns the mesmer into a pulsing AoE boonrip and Maim the Disillusioned turns the mesmer into a pulsing AoE torment well)

Almost every elite spec has some kind of special profession skill or mechanic that it adds, or at least a souped up version of an existing mechanic. Rangers have a new skill for every elite spec, Revs have at least 1 too, Thieves have either souped up dodges or that shroud (Deadeye doesn't really, and that's why it's weak), Engi has either Function Gyro, Photon Forge, or a better version of a Ranger pet, Necro has souped up shrouds or the shades, Eles have overloads, dual attuning, or Jade Sphere, Guardians have souped up Virtues, and Warrior has Berserk Mode, Full Counter, or Dragon Trigger. Blades don't count, much like how the Gunsaber doesn't count, because those things just replace existing mechanics, instead of adding to the class.

If you just want Mesmer to be weak and unplayable because you hate facing them, that' ok, everyone's entitled to their opinion. But if that's the case, then please save it for opinion threads, rather than distracting from the issue in a serious thread about trying to balance struggling spec.

[Seventh Ranger.3968]

16 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

F5 block is gone, I’m sure everyone has mourned long enough.   F5 still gives trait aegis, it’s okay.   It’s also an instant cast.   Meaning you can chain the small amount of dmg with other skills, again this is okay.   However, using the skill still seems questionable as it can be a waste of resources.   And that’s the real problem for me.   When I have to question myself if the skill is even worth using or waiting for the cd on f1 to pop.   Maybe I needed the aegis… and I have for sure.   But that is me investing a trait for only one block from virts most unique skill.   Seems lame.   If it doesn’t get a defensive capability back the dmg needs to be buffed.   I wouldn’t mind a scaling effect on dmg each time you stand in the blades.   And add in extra bleed for a condi variation.

This is my biggest problem with it too. I don't care if they bring back the block, they just need to do something to the skill to make it not feel like a waste of Blades. Right now, there's almost no reason to ever waste your Blades on it unless, like you said, you have that aegis trait, and you need a single block.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

21 minutes ago, Seventh Ranger.3968 said:

Almost every elite spec has some kind of special profession skill or mechanic that it adds, or at least a souped up version of an existing mechanic. Rangers have a new skill for every elite spec, Revs have at least 1 too, Thieves have either souped up dodges or that shroud (Deadeye doesn't really, and that's why it's weak), Engi has either Function Gyro, Photon Forge, or a better version of a Ranger pet, Necro has souped up shrouds or the shades, Eles have overloads, dual attuning, or Jade Sphere, Guardians have souped up Virtues, and Warrior has Berserk Mode, Full Counter, or Dragon Trigger. Blades don't count, much like how the Gunsaber doesn't count, because those things just replace existing mechanics, instead of adding to the class.

If you just want Mesmer to be weak and unplayable because you hate facing them, that' ok, everyone's entitled to their opinion. But if that's the case, then please save it for opinion threads, rather than distracting from the issue in a serious thread about trying to balance struggling spec.

Virtuoso Blades are a much bigger change in how the Mesmer plays. It takes the clunky clones and makes for very fluid combat.

You say Necro specs are good because they soup up the shroud mechanic. But the Virtuoso blade mechanic does the same thing for Mesmer. 

I think Distortion should be removed from Virtuoso. But only because I think that it should have its own unique defensive shatter by giving Bladeturn Requiem its channeled block back.

 

Sure the enemy can get Unblockable. But that is part of the differentiation the Virtuoso has. The Virtuoso is the most offensive oriented Mesmer spec. No Mesmer can generate Illusions as quickly to cast the shatters as often. When other Mesmers kill their target they have to spend multiple skills to generate new Clones but the Virtuoso retains it's blades to immediately move onto the next target.

Clones are inherently more defensive than Blades because they mess up the enemy target priority again leading the Virtuoso to be the most offensive oriented espec for the class.

I think your reasoning that the Virtuoso must keep the Core shatter skill in order to have a mechanic that wouldn't exist otherwise is ludicrous.

[dead.7638]

I also think suggesting that old f5 is greater than f4 is bad logic.   I would rather them completely remove f5 over losing distortion.   Also chaining shatters is far easier on everything but virt.   Virt will hit harder, but it can not simultaneously chain f1-4 like other specs do as quickly.   One is because of los and regeneration of blades, other is virt has projectiles that have cast times and animations.   That I will say are 100% easier to dodge then clones.

Edited September 26 by dead.7638

[Roadkizzle.2157]

8 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

I also think suggesting that old f5 is greater than f4 is bad logic.   I would rather them completely remove f5 over losing distortion.   Also chaining shatters is far easier on everything but virt.   Virt will hit harder, but it can not simultaneously chain f1-4 like other specs do as quickly.   One is because of los and regeneration of blades, other is virt has projectiles that have cast times and animations.   That I will say are 100% easier to dodge then clones.

I'm not saying to remove the Distortion Shatter because the old F5 was a better defensive skill.

 

I'm saying that it's more fitting for the spec design to have a slightly worse defensive trait but it has an offensive component that the Distortion shatter does not have.

Blades regenerate almost immediately. With the Condi traits the blades are almost completely regenerated just by the Bleeding stacks that the shatter itself causes.

Dagger 3 and the Phantasms completely recharge the blades too.

 

Other Mesmer specs can't generate full clones nearly as quickly.

[ShadowKatt.6740]

It's interesting reading all this because I have a completely different view of it. I NEVER use it. But I never use it because why would I? Mesmers, like all the scholar professions (Necro/Ele) are the lightest and squishiest in the game. The tankiest mesmer is going to be out-tanked by the glassiest warrior, so why would you want to get that close? My view has always been if I actually have to use my sword I've -probably- done something wrong at some point, and so if they're close enough to even be hit by Bladeturn Requiem I've made a mistake.

Or I'm fighting pocket raptors. It's actually really useful against pocket raptors.

[dead.7638]

Bottom line we have both options in front of us why choose the one that is obviously worse.   Anet training you all to think the Mesmer class deserves less.   Off topic but, The simple fact is that virt shatters have cast time vs other shatters that have no cast time.   I don’t see how you are saying it’s faster when it simple isn’t.   There is no cast time or projectile speed with clones.   You can if you wanted, chain spam x3 shatters with f1-3 x3 clones in the time for f1 on virt to cast and fly at you.

[Roadkizzle.2157]

31 minutes ago, dead.7638 said:

Bottom line we have both options in front of us why choose the one that is obviously worse.   Anet training you all to think the Mesmer class deserves less.   Off topic but, The simple fact is that virt shatters have cast time vs other shatters that have no cast time.   I don’t see how you are saying it’s faster when it simple isn’t.   There is no cast time or projectile speed with clones.   You can if you wanted, chain spam x3 shatters with f1-3 x3 clones in the time for f1 on virt to cast and fly at you.

No. I'm saying that Virtuoso should play to it's strength.

 

If it gets the best defenses in the game then it would be way to unbalanced to also have the biggest damage.

Virtuoso shouldn't have the defensive capabilities of the Mirage or its damage profile will be nerfed to the level of the Mirage. We don't want the Virt to be put in the place of the Mirage.