Sept 26 rev nerf

[Sereath.1428]

Now watch them nerf GS or even swords for every single build again after noticing that Vindicator is now at 43k DPS.
And according to some, you can still get free additional damage from bugging the jump. Imagine balancing around that.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sereath.1428

[Rhailex.2513]

• Mist Swing: 1.0 * 25% from traits 1.25; Changed to 0.7 * 40% from traits 0.98. New damage with traits is worse than old damage without traits. 1.0 / 1.25 -> 0.7 / 0.98
• I'll use the same calculation for the rest, but only write the numbers.
• Mist Slash: 1.1 / 1.375 -> 0.8 / 1.12
• Arcing Mists: 1.3 / 1.625 -> 1.2 / 1.68
• Mists Unleashed: 2.0 / 2.5 -> 1.6 / 2.24

Overall a huge nerf to vindicator greatsword as now you'll be forced to use the 2 damage traits to match the pre-nerf damage WITHOUT traits.

However, utility skills will do considerably more damage now since the traits went from giving 25 damage bonus to a whopping 40%.

Problem is that since vindicator will become more legend-heavy, it will suffer from energy management problems. The utility skills were just that; utility. Now they will be used much more frequently because they deal a ton more damage.

The lack of pvp changes don't bother me. Vindicator in general is almost a different class in PVP (just look at the healing skills having 30 sec CD in pvp vs low 10 sec in PVE)

 

[Sereath.1428]

It is kinda cringe how revenant greatsword now has the weakest autoattacks of all greatswords, almost as low as PvP now. 💀

[draxynnic.3719]

12 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Golem and wiki balancing is my problem.
Bad game design is my problem, not that nerfs were not necessary.

Herald 100% needed nerfs, every other power revenant build did not.

Swords and almost every other revenant weapon needed buffs because they are bad.
Do some of you even read the traits and do more than copy-paste builds?

For the dense people:
Not taking Death Drop now is like a 40% damage loss 😀(and it's the second time they buff that dodge)
and now they have to balance every other weapon around the fact that Vindicator does that much ridiculous damage when taking a single trait.

"You want to deal meaningful power damage with x weapon? Then pick Vindicator with these exact traits."
"Nah bruh, revenant weapons aren't weak. It's your fault for missing out on the free 40% damage boost from Vindicator and Death Drop."

Yeah, putting all of the compensation on Forerunner of Death was... inelegant at best. It's a bit of a shame that greatsword didn't have a trait in vindicator, then that could have been used as a 'you can use greatsword with any spec, but it's best with vindicator' lever.

[Sobx.1758]

13 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

Herald 100% needed nerfs, every other power revenant build did not.

Swords and almost every other revenant weapon needed buffs because they are bad.
Do some of you even read the traits and do more than copy-paste builds?

For the dense people:
Not taking Death Drop now is like a 40% damage loss 😀(and it's the second time they buff that dodge)
and now they have to balance every other weapon around the fact that Vindicator does that much ridiculous damage when taking a single trait.

"You want to deal meaningful power damage with x weapon? Then pick Vindicator with these exact traits."
"Nah bruh, revenant weapons aren't weak. It's your fault for missing out on the free 40% damage boost from Vindicator and Death Drop."

Imagine complaining about getting intended dps trait to perform as a dps build 🙃 

No, swords aren't bad and they didn't need a buff.

7 hours ago, Sereath.1428 said:

It is kinda cringe how revenant greatsword now has the weakest autoattacks of all greatswords, almost as low as PvP now. 💀

Why does that matter? And why is it "cringe" that this greatsword has the weakest autoattacks (didn't factcheck that, because in the end it doesn't matter, I'll just blindly go with what you're saying here btw)? Would it be perfectly fine for you if it was another greatsword having weakest autoattacks? Why? 🤔 
Seriously, what a weird complaint to go for.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Giovanni.7051]

It was odd that I pretty much shelved Vindicator PWR dps once they opened up GS access to other classes, it really showed how strong GS was and how much it was carrying the Vindicator spec after all the nerfs.

 

I figured there were 2 ways they could go about dealing with this; 1 to nerf Herald DPS skills or 2 nerf GS skills. Both were going to introduce some spill over issues and they buffed DPS Vindi to compensate. So in the end Herald and Vindicator are fine.. Herald is doing similar DPS numbers to what it was doing before weapon mastery (which I main these days and thought it was fine before and it's fine now) and Pwr DPS Vindicator is back on the menu which is fun and doing good out there to my gameplay.

 

Really the only class super lost in the shuffle is Renegade at this point imo.

 

I'm not here convince you one way or another but this is my take on the change. 

[Angesombre.4630]

3 hours ago, Giovanni.7051 said:

C'était étrange que j'aie mis de côté les dps de Vindicator PWR une fois qu'ils ont ouvert l'accès GS à d'autres classes, cela montrait vraiment à quel point GS était fort et à quel point il portait la spécification Vindicator après tous les nerfs.

So we have to do as before: double sword for base and herald, bow for renegat and GS for vindicator?

So in fact SotO is useless on returning in the end if the other weapons are better.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So we have to do as before: double sword for base and herald, bow for renegat and GS for vindicator?

So in fact SotO is useless on returning in the end if the other weapons are better.

You don't have to do anything, you still have options to use, it's just not dominated by a single weapon.
Even if you want to follow the logic of the question you just asked, apparently before this patch you had to "only use gs for any power build and lb for any condi build" regardless of which espec you played. Somehow you weren't questioning that state of the game? Why is that?

In other words: if you consider "the best option to be the only option", you didn't have any choice anyways and you'll never have one.

Edited September 29, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Angesombre.4630]

4 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You don't have to do anything, you still have options to use, it's just not dominated by a single weapon.
Even if you want to follow the logic of the question you just asked, apparently before this patch you had to "only use gs for any power build and lb for any condi build" regardless of which espec you played. Somehow you weren't questioning that state of the game? Why is that?

In other words: if you consider "the best option to be the only option", you didn't have any choice anyways and you'll never have one.

Technically, the revenant weapons each have a function, and I use the one that seems best suited to my use. For example, if I'm doing either, I won't use GS or bow. If I'm doing alteration there's axe mass and bow I'm not going to use options that aren't useful with the style of play I need and in relation to the stats I'm using which seems logical, as I would with any other profession.
I'm also taking weapons I like to play, like the hammer in its gameplay, which I haven't used for a long time. So even in this case, the short bow is more interesting.

I'm questioning the aspects of the game that can be changed, not the ones that won't change.

What's more, at the outset, the revenant was designed to have just one set of weapons, if I remember correctly, in the same way as the elementalist or the engineer.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Buran.3796]

7 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So we have to do as before: double sword for base and herald, bow for renegat and GS for vindicator?

So in fact SotO is useless on returning in the end if the other weapons are better.

   Weapon Mastery had weak implications for some professions, but that's not the case with the Revenant. For now, the changes did only affect PvE. In WvW/PvP short bow and greatsword absolutely did open the gates to a better build combos. But let's look at the PvE part of the game which was (sadly) the focus of the patch:

   Despite the damage nerf for core, Herald and Renegade while using greatsword, the weapon is still arguably a better power weapon than swords, since has more cleave and a block (which doesn't root you) + mobility. With swords, if you want mobility you lose the block, and if you run shield you lose mobility.

   Short bow accesible to all Revs alone justifies the expansion. Breaks the servitude of Revenant being exclusively a mele class in PvE.

[Angesombre.4630]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Weapon Mastery had weak implications for some professions, but that's not the case with the Revenant. For now, the changes did only affect PvE. In WvW/PvP short bow and greatsword absolutely did open the gates to a better build combos. But let's look at the PvE part of the game which was (sadly) the focus of the patch:

   Despite the damage nerf for core, Herald and Renegade while using greatsword, the weapon is still arguably a better power weapon than swords, since has more cleave and a block (which doesn't root you) + mobility. With swords, if you want mobility you lose the block, and if you run shield you lose mobility.

   Short bow accesible to all Revs alone justifies the expansion. Breaks the servitude of Revenant being exclusively a mele class in PvE.

Now I'm talking about PvE, but the nerf is still important when there were other solutions. Even if it can still be "good", it's a really radical nerf for a hand-to-hand class. It's the weakest GS on the first 2 skills of any profession.
Even if it wasn't necessarily the weapon for the renegade, it also nerfed him with this weapon.
Not forgetting that the revenant has a short CD and an energy cost.
In WvW, the revenant has already taken a lot out of vindicator since its release 1 years ago.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Sobx.1758]

9 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Technically, the revenant weapons each have a function, and I use the one that seems best suited to my use. For example, if I'm doing either, I won't use GS or bow. If I'm doing alteration there's axe mass and bow I'm not going to use options that aren't useful with the style of play I need and in relation to the stats I'm using which seems logical, as I would with any other profession.
I'm also taking weapons I like to play, like the hammer in its gameplay, which I haven't used for a long time. So even in this case, the short bow is more interesting.

So... what you wrote in your previous post just isn't true, that's the point.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Angesombre.4630]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

So... what you wrote in your previous post just isn't true, that's the point.

Sorry if it's not true, I was just talking about the way I play. Maybe I'm playing wrong then....

[draxynnic.3719]

23 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Why does that matter? And why is it "cringe" that this greatsword has the weakest autoattacks (didn't factcheck that, because in the end it doesn't matter, I'll just blindly go with what you're saying here btw)? Would it be perfectly fine for you if it was another greatsword having weakest autoattacks? Why? 🤔 
Seriously, what a weird complaint to go for.

Yeah, one of the considerations in my mind was how many damage modifiers the profession has. Revenant has a lot. Haven't done the analysis to establish whether it has more than other greatsword-wielding professions, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. Revenant is also generally better at getting extra DPS out of utility slots. If greatsword revenant ends up with comparable DPS to greatsword builds on other professions in question, it doesn't really matter if the coefficients are lower, since the coefficients are evidently being compensated for by traits, use of utility skills, and other factors.

[Angesombre.4630]

59 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, one of the considerations in my mind was how many damage modifiers the profession has. Revenant has a lot. Haven't done the analysis to establish whether it has more than other greatsword-wielding professions, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. Revenant is also generally better at getting extra DPS out of utility slots. If greatsword revenant ends up with comparable DPS to greatsword builds on other professions in question, it doesn't really matter if the coefficients are lower, since the coefficients are evidently being compensated for by traits, use of utility skills, and other factors.

After that, utilistaire costs a lot in energy, except for vindi at the moment.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Sorry if it's not true, I was just talking about the way I play. Maybe I'm playing wrong then....

I mean what you said earlier wasn't true. What you said earlier was this:

21 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So we have to do as before: double sword for base and herald, bow for renegat and GS for vindicator?

So in fact SotO is useless on returning in the end if the other weapons are better.

But in the subsequent response you explained how you're using different weapons because they do different things. Either you "just use sword for herald, bow for renegade and gs for vindicator" (...because of the dps, right? What other reason is there supposed to be for that sentence?) OR you understand that you can still use different weapons for different situations because of what they do.

Either you chase top dps which means you never had a choice anyways because you always used top dps option OR you're using different weapons because they're doing things anyways, at which point those balance changes don't mean you're somehow bound to assign one weapon per spec.

Edited September 30, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yeah, one of the considerations in my mind was how many damage modifiers the profession has. Revenant has a lot. Haven't done the analysis to establish whether it has more than other greatsword-wielding professions, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. Revenant is also generally better at getting extra DPS out of utility slots. If greatsword revenant ends up with comparable DPS to greatsword builds on other professions in question, it doesn't really matter if the coefficients are lower, since the coefficients are evidently being compensated for by traits, use of utility skills, and other factors.

Yup. Too bad I'm apparently not getting any response from that person nor from any of the other so confused people in this thread 🤷‍♂️ 

[Angesombre.4630]

11 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I mean what you said earlier wasn't true. What you said earlier was this:

But in the subsequent response you explained how you're using different weapons because they do different things. Either you "just use sword for herald, bow for renegade and gs for vindicator" (...because of the dps, right? What other reason is there supposed to be for that sentence?) OR you understand that you can still use different weapons for different situations because of what they do.

Either you chase top dps which means you never had a choice anyways because you always used top dps option OR you're using different weapons because they're doing things anyways, at which point those balance changes don't mean you're somehow bound to assign one weapon per spec.

Then I'd say, like everyone else, dps, like everyone else, you either want to hold on depending on the situation or kill the mobs as quickly as possible, each to their own scale. But I also have to like the weapon, for example the hammer on the elementalist doesn't appeal to me, even if it had the best dps I wouldn't be a fan. As there was a build at some point on the thief dagger pistol, I didn't play that build in the same way because I didn't like the gameplay. There's also the obligation of group content, where people generally want you to be meta.
For the open world, I take the weapon I need and like.

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

Then I'd say, like everyone else, dps, like everyone else, you either want to hold on depending on the situation or kill the mobs as quickly as possible, each to their own scale. But I also have to like the weapon, for example the hammer on the elementalist doesn't appeal to me, even if it had the best dps I wouldn't be a fan. As there was a build at some point on the thief dagger pistol, I didn't play that build in the same way because I didn't like the gameplay. There's also the obligation of group content, where people generally want you to be meta.
For the open world, I take the weapon I need and like.

That's great, which still leaves the question what you meant when you wrote this post:

21 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So we have to do as before: double sword for base and herald, bow for renegat and GS for vindicator?

So in fact SotO is useless on returning in the end if the other weapons are better.

How is this supposed to be true in light of what you wrote in your last few posts, including the latest one? If you use whatever you want, you just have to like the weapon and use weapons based on what you want/need then HOW do some balance changes made you reach the conclusion of "having to only use swords on herald, bow for rene and gs for vindi"? Do you somehow still think the same? If so, why exactly?

 

 

There's no "obligation" to play meta in that content btw, you can play non-meta builds and still easly do well enough, maybe unless you have a static that's bent on speed clears, but at that point... well, you picked your own poison (and here it just circles back to "you never had a choice anyways" because you'll just keep copying the meta").

Edited September 30, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Angesombre.4630]

14 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That's great, which still leaves the question what you meant when you wrote this post:

How is this supposed to be true in light of what you wrote in your last few posts, including the latest one?

If a weapon is only good for the specialization it's released with, I don't see the point of SotO. Just as the renegat has advantages for the bow in these traits. Vindicator doesn't have any for GS, but if it's only good for that specialization, then it's only left on Vindicator. As it would be for the shield bonus on the herald. It's like playing s/s on alteration, it's a loss of dps as you put less degat alteration.
In alteration there are only 2 weapon sets: mace/axe and shortbow.
The revenant has been designed with a specific weapon for each legend. 
Baton ventari, sword shiro ...

[Sobx.1758]

3 minutes ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

If a weapon is only good for the specialization it's released with, I don't see the point of SotO.

But that's not the case. Just because a weapon performs better on 1 espec, it doesn't mean it's somehow automatically bad on anything else.
If that's what you'd think then, again, you never had any choice to make anyways because you simply always pick best performers (weapon and espec). I don't know why you keep going back and forth with this where on one hand you pick what you want, but on the other... nah, top performance is too important!

Edited September 30, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Angesombre.4630]

5 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But that's not the case.

So if we use s/s on vindicator, for example, compared to GS, and s/s becomes too powerful on this specialization, what will they do with nerf vindi or nerf sword because it will be too strong?

Edited September 30, 2023 by Angesombre.4630

[Sobx.1758]

22 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

So if we use s/s on vindicator, for example, compared to GS, and s/s becomes too powerful on this specialization, what will they do with nerf vindi or nerf épée because it will be too strong?

How is this hypothetical relevant to anything said here, because I must be missing something?

Sword isn't new to any of these professions. GS is new to every spec other than vindi and it pushed out other power options because of its stats and utility. You still have more options than you had and you still aren't somehow bound to using "double sword for base and herald, bow for renegat and GS for vindicator". Claiming that you'll now assign these options by default makes even less sense when you continued typing in your subsequent posts how you're using weapons based on other things than just raw dps output. If that's true (and I agree that it should be true for vast majority of players) then some dps nerfs shouldn't really completely scare you off from using GS. It remains being another, easly usable option for specs other than vindi -it might just not compeltely dominate every power rene build there is. And that's a good thing.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[draxynnic.3719]

17 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

After that, utilistaire costs a lot in energy, except for vindi at the moment.

True. But you can afford it, if you're only concerned about DPS. DPS will likely drop if you need to use energy for a utility effect instead of DPS, but other professions typically also need to sacrifice DPS if they want to bring utility.

Bottom line, it's probably better to compare builds overall than specific weapon skill coefficients. If greatsword revenant and greatsword whatever are both outputting the same DPS, and there are no other balance considerations in play (ease of use, availability of non-DPS functionality, etc), then it doesn't really matter if revenant greatsword has lower coefficients on paper - they're obviously being compensated for somewhere. While if revenant greatsword was doing 5k less, that would probably be the number being looked at rather than overall skill coefficients.