Buff Hammer Catalyst (in endgame pve)

[xChris.8904]

Nerfing Catalyst was neccessary, it was ridiculously overperforming after SotO along with many other builds. And the way they implemented these nerfs by dropping down EA and sphere coefficients then hitting wildfire a bit, is ok. Because any heavy nerfs to either sword or warhorn would be a big hit to power tempest/weaver and these builds didn't need a nerf. Also the nerf of fireworks lowered the damage in general across the board and ele has been one with the highest uptime on that. So what is the problem? The problem is that with the weaponmaster training, they seem to have forgotten that certain weapons exist. Hammer has been the main catalyst weapon since it's release, few professions have been that tightly tied to their own weapon and catalyst was one of them. So although it is good to have another option around, it is really bad that hammer got completely sidelined because of that. It is still usable in open world but it lags a lot behind on the full dps power build (around 3-4k dps less). On top of that it has a much more difficult rotation, lacks burst and isn't capable of maintaining specific buffs during downtime, things that sword/warhorn excels at. Right now the low intensity sword/warhorn build that i made does the same damage as hammer and it literally switches only between 2 attunements using everything that does damage off cd. If we are gonna have 2 possible setups on power catalyst, the only logical thing is for the one with all these drawbacks, to be higher dps. Easiest way to do that, something that they could pull off without any effort, is increase the strike damage on the orbs. Nothing new there, they used to have a 0,05 and even 0,1 coefficient at some point. They are at 0,01 and basically do no damage. It should be brought up to a point that lets hammer do between 43-44k as it's ceiling which means that most people will barely be getting 40k because that is how it has always been when it had that kind of benchmark (and obviously it is even more difficult to pull off in actual fights)

Edited September 30 by xChris.8904

[peperoncino.2516]

3 hours ago, xChris.8904 said:

i am not sure what you are complaining about. nothing and noone stops you. you are the one putting restrictions to yourself. if you want to be doing high damage then you will have to go with specific setups.

[Gustaff.6581]

If hammer gets buffed to be superior than Sw/Wh, we will see posts about to buff Sw/Wh and nerf hammer.

So, whats the solution to use both hammer and Sw/Wh in endgame PvE?

[peperoncino.2516]

20 minutes ago, Gustaff.6581 said:

So, whats the solution to use both hammer and Sw/Wh in endgame PvE?

just has to be somewhat competitive, especially for what effort it takes to use the thing compared to sw/wh. i mean, hammer kinda has nothing going for it right now, no?

[Gustaff.6581]

20 minutes ago, peperoncino.2516 said:

just has to be somewhat competitive, especially for what effort it takes to use the thing compared to sw/wh. i mean, hammer kinda has nothing going for it right now, no?

It needs a small buff in damage and also be less complex.

Althouh Sw/Wh does more damage, i still prefer Hammer in open world, because it does aoe more consistently and have more sustain.

[Junkpile.7439]

Maybe buff something that if fun to play first. Like scepter/dagger core build.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 10/5/2023 at 6:18 PM, Junkpile.7439 said:

Maybe buff something that if fun to play first. Like scepter/dagger core build.

Yeah,

Hammer needs a complete redesign before we start buffing that abomination of a weapon.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Make cata power, weaver condi or I don't know but actually all ele-specs even tempest compete in the same race, with the same "Condi damage+Power damage" modifiers.

Then weapons should naturally fill the slot.

[Gustaff.6581]

You can makle Sw/Wh condi and Hammer power, i dont know, can buff some of the hammer skills..... like water 2 or earth 5. whatever or to make more combos or more CC for elemental empowerment and better uptime of empowered empowerment. Both condi and Power builds use Warhorn so you can see how weak the other weapons are.

On 10/8/2023 at 3:22 PM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Yeah,

Hammer needs a complete redesign before we start buffing that abomination of a weapon.

I like this but thinking in how arenat net behaves, its very unlikely. Im not a fan of Hammer 3 because the skill itself seems too uninspired. If i want a change that would be to change Hammer 3. Grand finale in short fights is useless since in the moment that you get the 4 spheres the enemy is already dead.

[SeTect.5918]

Its actually funny how its easier to keep up 10 stacks of Elemental_Empowerment_(effect) with sw/wh than with hammer because hammer has less combo finishers and its stuns/immobs have a higher cooldown than the ones of sw/wh. Sword fire 2 also gives an aura because having both a combo field and combo finisher. Warhorn earth 4 gives an aura.

It also shocks me how WHIRLING stones isnt even a whirl finisher. Same thing with hurricane of pain (hammer 2). I said that when hammer came out and i still say it.

Its actually kinda sad that weapons of other e specs offer more synergy with the e spec than the e spec weapon itself.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yeah that is strange they made a weapon for "combo oriented" e-spec, but actually has no field and so few combo finisher.
Even #3 final projectil, it should be a barrage of projectils and instant 10 EE.

[rotten.9753]

On 10/14/2023 at 11:38 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Yeah that is strange they made a weapon for "combo oriented" e-spec, but actually has no field and so few combo finisher.

The idea was that the hammer would have finishers, while the sphere would provide the fields. However, it has only 1 finisher per attunement (except water) with high cooldowns. It loses massively to sword/warhorn though, as it simply has more finishers with lower cooldowns, and skills like fire2. You pretty much start the fight with 10 EE stacks.

On 10/14/2023 at 11:38 AM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Even #3 final projectil, it should be a barrage of projectils and instant 10 EE.

You actually want to have those stacks before Grand Finale, it deals heavy damage. It counts as 4 projectiles afaik, but we have a 10s ICD per attunement for Elemental Epitome.

[rotten.9753]

On 10/8/2023 at 10:12 PM, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Make cata power, weaver condi or I don't know but actually all ele-specs even tempest compete in the same race, with the same "Condi damage+Power damage" modifiers.

Then weapons should naturally fill the slot.

That's no different from Engineer - Mechanist can be power or condie, Holosmith can be power or condie, only Scrapper is fully power.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

1 hour ago, rotten.9753 said:

That's no different from Engineer - Mechanist can be power or condie, Holosmith can be power or condie, only Scrapper is fully power.

That's true, but it is a combination with other traitlanes and utility-weapons skill, then e-specs can enhance gimmicks  and push one particular damage with modifiers. So if you want condi you should prioritize "Explosion" or "Burning" synergies etc, or if you want more LI or general gameplay you should take the power modifiers.

All ele e-specs suffer of undecided designed traits/modifiers that just give "power+condi damage". Catalyst is the purest lazy concept e-spec par excellence; you only have celestial modifiers  everywhere and no enhancement or syngergy with precise gimmicks.

[rotten.9753]

15 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

That's true, but it is a combination with other traitlanes and utility-weapons skill, then e-specs can enhance gimmicks  and push one particular damage with modifiers. So if you want condi you should prioritize "Explosion" or "Burning" synergies etc, or if you want more LI or general gameplay you should take the power modifiers.

The only trait line that has undecided flavor is fire. You pick fire/air (rarely arcane or water) for power specs and fire/earth for condie specs.

Out of all Weaver traits that are +%dmg we have one that's only +%condie duration and competes with +%dmg and the final one wasn't originally increasing condie damage, it does so just for 2 years.

Out of all tempest traits, one is really new and another exists for some time, but they weren't in original design.

The only spec that's "celestial" is catalyst because the designer (CmC) is a PvP player at heart, and an Elementalist is pretty much designed to use celestial in PvP.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

On 10/16/2023 at 2:22 PM, rotten.9753 said:

The only trait line that has undecided flavor is fire. You pick fire/air (rarely arcane or water) for power specs and fire/earth for condie specs.

Out of all Weaver traits that are +%dmg we have one that's only +%condie duration and competes with +%dmg and the final one wasn't originally increasing condie damage, it does so just for 2 years.

Out of all tempest traits, one is really new and another exists for some time, but they weren't in original design.

The only spec that's "celestial" is catalyst because the designer (CmC) is a PvP player at heart, and an Elementalist is pretty much designed to use celestial in PvP.

Those traitlanes are core traitlanes, not e-spec traitlanes.

E-spec traitlane (and e-spec weapon) should obviously innovate on the class mechanic, add new gimmick/utility... but also make synergies with core class.
What tempest do or did with auras, or weaver with woven stride and weakness. I'm okai to have some modifiers, but not lazy ones, and certainly not modifiers that work on their own without any link with other core traitlanes, skills and weapons.
Let's say we put a very simple "power modifier" on catalyst for easy reading of e-spec identification and for golem benchmark (and condition modifier for weaver) but we should also look at what already bring core elementalist and how to tweak it or enhance it to make a new gimmick and a diversity of builds: "We have chill, frost aura on water or earth traitlane a new stance augment ... why not make a trait to add torment when you apply chill" "We have blindness on scepter, on fire grandmaster trait, sandstorm ... why not apply quickness/alacrity when you inflict blindness" etc. Same with F5 it should serve differents purposes given by traits and not just "Boons > More Boons". So you could have a "top dps benchmark" on power, and viable set for condi at least in OW, pvp modes.

And catalyst is far from that. No matter your template and weapons you always take the same "celestial" traits to enhance everything randomly.  Weaver is just behind, yet because of utility skills and dual attacks you have variety; and what they did to shouts, Transcendant Tempest and the disregard of Elemental bastion because of alacrity "role" is not really better.
That's also why sword/warhorn is just stronger than everything else, because hammer has nothing to do with catalyst traits and F5.

Edited October 17 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[scerevisiae.1972]

On 10/9/2023 at 5:22 AM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Hammer needs a complete redesign before we start buffing that abomination of a weapon.

This. Hammer should not (and never should have been) yet another melee weapon. 

Sword should be the melee weapon, and some hammer skills reworked to make it a genuinely mid-range/hybrid weapon.

 

Edited October 18 by scerevisiae.1972

[gousgou.5438]

On 10/8/2023 at 9:22 PM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Yeah,

Hammer needs a complete redesign before we start buffing that abomination of a weapon.

"Staff cries silently in the corner".