Outnumbered Buff - Re-work Suggestion

[XenesisII.1540]

Alright my last post in this meaningless thread.

Let me simplify it for you.

It's an effect on a player, it does nothing to the player it's on, it's not a buff or a debuff to them, it's effects would benefit the players attacking them thus a buff to those players, no stat buff or debuff, just adding the current outnumbered effects to them. Is this plain and simple language enough for you to understand? No? well don't care, carry on the meaningless thread that will lead to nothingburgers.

[Floz.8904]

3 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Alright my last post in this meaningless thread.

Let me simplify it for you.

It's an effect on a player, it does nothing to the player it's on, it's not a buff or a debuff to them, it's effects would benefit the players attacking them thus a buff to those players, no stat buff or debuff, just adding the current outnumbered effects to them. Is this plain and simple language enough for you to understand? No? well don't care, carry on the meaningless thread that will lead to nothingburgers.

https://youtu.be/GENhSXV-MYQ?si=gk-GToy6dJV8AVY2

[Zyreva.1078]

10 minutes ago, Floz.8904 said:

If you have 10 people being hit by grav well or 10 people being hit by arc dividers. that's a worse outcome than getting beaten by a group that has met contingent caveats to have a minor stat buff.

We can handle fights without getting carried by target caps, so should larger grps. That being said, completely removing (offensive) target caps isn't the only way to adress said mechanic. Surely there is the possibility of more sensible adjustments, that would hardly break the game.

[Floz.8904]

50 minutes ago, Zyreva.1078 said:

We can handle fights without getting carried by target caps, so should larger grps. That being said, completely removing (offensive) target caps isn't the only way to adress said mechanic. Surely there is the possibility of more sensible adjustments, that would hardly break the game.

Like a minor buff to the outnumbered party's stats?

I will acknowledge that my suggestion is probably slightly biased to the content we find ourselves in of 15v30 comped or 15v45 semi comped. So my approach is probably more skewed to that sort of power meta than the smaller scale condi meta like Loose Dogs etc of 5v15 cloud. But at that point, you're not actually being affected by focussed target cap of 20 wells going down on you at the same time, so target cap in a condi v cloud meta is not as much of an impact to skew your detriment.

We can also handle outnumbered fights without target cap. The equivalent would be your 5 man group fighting our comped 15 man group. I guarantee you lose that fight every time. But this is not a competition of kitten measurement.

It is a way to reward difficult and competitive content.

And it is more likely than not, not going to happen. But just some food for thought to get the conversation away from the status quo of WvW complaining and towards some sort of positive evolution.

[TheGrimm.5624]

5 hours ago, Floz.8904 said:

Next challenger, never did this post say "remove PPk". It said "remove your invulnerability to affecting score as a result of dying to the enemy". You can't have your cake and eat it too. By getting an outnumbered fight buff, you are being rewarded for fighting. And thus there needs to be a cost associated with that reward. That is the cost. You may feed the enemy.

I run a fight guild that also fights outnumbered.

Read your post lol.

I run solo and fight havocs, and also run havocs to fight groups, so where do you get to gain a buff when I jump 5 of you? See the issue you propose? And yes you said remove defenders' options to fight larger numbers, read your own post. My objective is to keep what's ours, yours is to fight but that doesn't mean keep. But if you fight but don't keep what's ours, you still lost our stuff. There is a difference there. I don't care about your KDR, if you don't hold our stuff, you lost our stuff, why should you gain? The point of outnumbered is to hold your ground. People complained about pip hunters be them active or passive and you show how an active group should gain additional buffs versus just fight to hold their stuff, we can agree to disagree. Fight not for a buff to stats but instead to hold your objectives from taking.

5 hours ago, Floz.8904 said:

How frequently do you think people will leave the map to get 250 stats? 

Leave they won't, but they will tell others to leave so that they can gain it, that's the issue. You will see groups asking others to leave the map, that's the issue. You create ill will on your own server.

5 hours ago, Floz.8904 said:

By giving outnumbered more supply capacity, you again encourage PPT. This is an attempt to suggest some PPK balances for Outnumbered fighting.

More supply means both more offense and more defense. Or are you claiming defending is less fights versus taking more undefended objectives while having buffed stats is not a ktrain?

[TheGrimm.5624]

Xen/Chaba/Archon, Yes not the best replies at this hour. So less egg throwing if you don't mind, as I could have done that better. I admit grumpy Grimms sleep even less.

[TheGrimm.5624]

4 hours ago, Floz.8904 said:

https://youtu.be/GENhSXV-MYQ?si=gk-GToy6dJV8AVY2

Oh my, another poster that wants to link a video without actually specifying what is the points. Not against posting video's but you made no points on what you support or not so you just make no points on the topic but just use up times of others. I try and be open minded but this sort of action, doesn't leave options except guesses so, if you no make a point you aren't helping make one, food for thought.

[Chaba.5410]

I recall a similar discussion in the past where an Anet dev made comments indicating that they want to be careful about creating incentives that would lead to toxic player chat like harassing and yelling at people to leave a map so they can get the outnumbered buff.  And that's why the outnumbered buff doesn't lead to competitive advantages.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Floz.8904]

15 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

Oh my, another poster that wants to link a video without actually specifying what is the points. Not against posting video's but you made no points on what you support or not so you just make no points on the topic but just use up times of others. I try and be open minded but this sort of action, doesn't leave options except guesses so, if you no make a point you aren't helping make one, food for thought.

I'll admit this one was petty. But the incredibly confusing conversation around a fundamental misunderstanding of buffs and debuffs warranted the easiest way to resolve it - a guide to how boons and condis work.

[Floz.8904]

16 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

And yes you said remove defenders' options to fight larger numbers, read your own post

I dont think i do. I say, remove not counting to war score. However, i do agree that in the instances that blobs are just rolling into keeps and killing the 5-6 people online in a server at the time would be made worse.

Your argument in this specific post is the actual only feasible counterargument.

16 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

You create ill will on your own server

This is also fair, however it happens already. "Teq is up in 5 mins" has been thrown around plenty of times. Let alone outright animosity towards bad guilds.

16 hours ago, TheGrimm.5624 said:

More supply means both more offense and more defense

This still heavily favours defending groups and a PPT focused buff. I guess it does give you around a 20-25% momentum buff when PPTing the enemy too. 

I think the genuine solution could be that you can choose between 2 buffs from one of the Spawn guards or something.

- one is a fight focused outnumbered buff that has caveats to the distance between players like i've suggested.

- one is a supply capacity like you've suggested and retains the current invulnerability to PPK score impact.

Depending on the content you want, you pick which outnumbered buff you get only when the outnumbered proc is available.

The other element is that in small scale 1v1s etc, having that much of a stat boost will be wild (especially in cele + antitox builds) so maybe a 3rd skewed towards roaming to give them something. A movement speed buff or something, im not across the nuance enough of roaming to know what the issues are. Perhaps something that gives you resolution every interval.

Again, thank you for taking the time to throw a reasonable counterargument, you have some valid points.

[Floz.8904]

5 hours ago, Chaba.5410 said:

I recall a similar discussion in the past where an Anet dev made comments indicating that they want to be careful about creating incentives that would lead to toxic player chat like harassing and yelling at people to leave a map so they can get the outnumbered buff.  And that's why the outnumbered buff doesn't lead to competitive advantages.

Yeah that's fair - i think there's enough toxicity in wvw anyway so this would not really sway the balance. The block function exists and there are many blocked players on our lists.

[babana.7521]

No, actually, because, small group of players already can kill a big zerg, when they use the right builds and do thee right action/combo. 

No, secondly, a suggestion for a specific group size when everyone in the map is outnumbered? seems unfair.
No. 

[Riba.3271]

Most of the times numbers issues is just unwilling to communicate with server mates. Yes it would be great if 15 people could get op buffs and farm 30 bots, but what would actual 30 people feel like about this? Good fights? Thrash teammates?

Anyways, they already made defending super ez with stat buffs, tactivators, etc. But large groups already realised this and stay far away from hard objectives for 90% of their raid. With everyone camping open field, you don't have many strategies available. If you want to feel like you stand a chance, you should be asking for defending nerfs so you actually get groups attacking and you suddenly have 1000 new strategies from terrain and siege in your arsenal.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Riba.3271

[Deniara Devious.3948]

This is a seriously bad suggestion in so many ways and does NOTHING to solve the issues we have in EU, like having 3 vs 30 (obviously the latter will take everything it wants).

Outnumbered buff should give us extra pips (like it did before) + keep the current status. Maybe +5 pips was too much, but +3 extra pip should be given at minimum. Give players some reason to continue playing while having massively unfavorable odds.

 

[Daredevil.2745]

Outnumbered buff should be counted across all maps at the same time, not across the borders. Server that outnumbers gains -50% to the score during that time. Outnumbered server gain +100% to the score. Nightcappers of certain servers will quit the game after that.