Making obsolete utility skills useful again!

[Kenjiro.5074]

Sometimes people bring up underutilized skills, and as an engineer main I tend to focus on the ones from engineer.

Turrets are an obvious one that desperately need a rework, but that's already old news and I want to focus on other utilities that see little to no use in ALL game modes.

While that rework doesn't happen, I'd suggest at least making flame turret a "condi version" of rifle turret: a non-kit damage boost, mostly through its toolbelt. Have it be 20% less damage than flamethrower or smth.

Background for new players/people who don't play much engineer:

For engineer, our utilities are incredibly precious. More than any other class, because of our kits mechanic. We only have one weapon, and most of the time in order to have buttons to press (other than auto attacking), we need to equip at least one kit. So this puts a lot more strain on our utilities, we basically have two slots left. These slots have different uses in different game modes.

In PvE: In general, when playing dps specs, we need damage. For condition builds, this usually means another kit, as we don't have many strong condi damage utilities (except Mecha). For power builds, each elite has a strong option: Holo has the disk, Scrapper has shredder, Mechanist has the signets. This leaves one other utility slot open. But ofc we usually just go for even more damage, so throw mine/rifle turret for power, or another kit is usually what we get.

In PvP modes we have more options as damage isn't the end all be all. However we still only have one "flex" utility slot: We still really want at least one kit, and we also need a stunbreak. 

So in the end, this puts a requirement for engineer utilities to either be: A kit, extra damage, or a stunbreak. 

What are the most used elixirs in PvP? S and U. Both are stunbreaks, and both are instant casts. Elixir B can see use in some cases but it's also pretty lacklustre.

 

 

My suggestions:

• Elixir C: As for most elixirs, their cast time is way too long. Tossing it is way too janky. It used to be one of engi's only ways to get more cleanses, but now with tools minor, it's not as needed, and also competes with scrapper purge gyro and holo's cauterize.
  • Solution: Make it instant cast. Have it provide resistance and resolution. Toss versions of all elixirs should have faster projectile velocity.
• Elixir R: It's not damage, it's not a stunbreak. If you need endurance to dodge, you usually can't afford 1/4 a second to drink the elixir and then dodge. 
  • Solution: Make it instant cast and a stunbreak, and increase endurance regeneration by 100% for 5 seconds. In pve, make the throw version instantly rez downed allies. This would make it useful for supports in pve, and in pvp it would be a situationally decent pick if using alchemy and explosives, with allies, as the rez field can be useful.
• Personal Battering Ram
  • Problem: Not a stunbreak, low damage. Compare it to warrior's stomp: it has the same CC, but half the radius, and doesn't have a leap component. Stomp is a stunbreak and it provides stability.
  • Solution: Make it a stunbreak. Make it the condi version of throw mine: an option for a non kit condi damage source, tied to the toolbelt. It could add burning and confusion. In pvp, make it a single stack.

Elixir B isn't as useless as the aforementioned skills but if they are brought up to par, then B will be useless in turn (Elixir C would take its place considering current usage, and R would take its place if running with allies in small scale scenarios/spvp). It's currently only used in pvp situations where you take alchemy traitline, and already have elixir U. There is no situation where you'd pick B over U. Like the other elixirs, it should get a faster animation, and a faster velocity on thrown version. To make it compete with U, maybe add protection.

Would love to hear your thoughts on what I consider "useless skills". Are my solutions overkill, or not enough? Are there useless skills I'm missing? (other than turrets)

Edited October 13, 2023 by Kenjiro.5074
Forgot to ask for feedback

[Dirame.8521]

If the solution is always "make it a stun break" then you've lost me. 

[Kenjiro.5074]

8 minutes ago, Dirame.8521 said:

If the solution is always "make it a stun break" then you've lost me. 

There's a reason for that, I explained it in the post. TLDR: in competitive modes, we only have 1 slot for a utility skill that is not a stunbreak. 

It was part of the solution for 2 out of the 4 skills I mentioned, so I'm glad I haven't lost you ^^.

What else would you suggest to bring these utilities I mentioned up to par? Specifically Elixir R and PBR as you seem to have an issue with giving them stunbreaks.

Edited October 13, 2023 by Kenjiro.5074

[SeTect.5918]

40 minutes ago, Kenjiro.5074 said:

Turrets are an obvious one that desperately need a rework, but that's already old news and I want to focus on other utilities that see little to no use in ALL game modes.

While that rework doesn't happen, I'd suggest at least making flame turret a "condi version" of rifle turret: a non-kit damage boost, mostly through its toolbelt. Have it be 20% less damage than flamethrower or smth.

they will never make turrets good because turrets are permanent until you destroy them or someone else destroys them. Thats why turrets support "afk-farming". This is the reason why they are so bad.
But why dont they simply give turrets a duration? I dont know.

 

43 minutes ago, Kenjiro.5074 said:

• Personal Battering Ram
  • Problem: Not a stunbreak, low damage. Compare it to warrior's stomp: it has the same CC, but half the radius, and doesn't have a leap component. Stomp is a stunbreak and it provides stability.
  • Solution: Make it a stunbreak. Make it the condi version of throw mine: an option for a non kit condi damage source, tied to the toolbelt. It could add burning and confusion. In pvp, make it a single stack.

 

I disagree that i needs stunbreak. But i agree it could be a condi damage skill thats not a kit. Engi really lacks condi utility skills when it doesnt come to kits.
I could be something like 4 stacks burning for 10 seconds.
^why this number? Bomb kits "Fire bomb" does 4 stacks with a duration of 4 seconds on a cooldown of 8 seconds. 4 stacks with a duration of 10 seconds with a cooldown of 20 seconds would be exactly same strong.
2 additional stacks could be granted if used with gadgeteer.
The toolbelt could be confusion due to bomb kit 3 also giving confusion.
these numbers are balanced around pve of course.

[Kenjiro.5074]

3 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

why this number? Bomb kits

Good idea to balance it around bomb kit numbers. Imo it should have slightly lower total damage in pve due to being easier to use.

In pvp however, it's been anets approach to not load CC and damage in the same skill. That's why I'd like it to have a stunbreak, so it can still have a use.

If anet could break this design choice and actually let it do damage and CC in pvp, then yeah it wouldn't need a stunbreak!

[SleepyBat.9034]

50 minutes ago, Kenjiro.5074 said:

Elixir 😄 As for most elixirs, their cast time is way too long. Tossing it is way too janky. It used to be one of engi's only ways to get more cleanses, but now with tools minor, it's not as needed, and also competes with scrapper purge gyro and holo's cauterize.

• Solution: Make it instant cast. Have it provide resistance and resolution. Toss versions of all elixirs should have faster projectile velocity.

 

I'll be honest, I haven't had issues with the cast time of elixir skills. I tried using my WvW build which uses Elixir C in PvP back when corrupt reaper was a thing and it didn't go well thanks to the lack of stability on Engineer in PvP. My number 1 issue with Engineer in PvP is the over-nerf of Elixir U which needs to be reversed.

[Kenjiro.5074]

3 minutes ago, SleepyBat.9034 said:

I'll be honest, I haven't had issues with the cast time of elixir skills. I tried using my WvW build which uses Elixir C in PvP back when corrupt reaper was a thing and it didn't go well thanks to the lack of stability on Engineer in PvP. My number 1 issue with Engineer in PvP is the over-nerf of Elixir U which needs to be reversed.

It would help in that case as well, as you would be able to cast it while feared or crowd controlled in any other way. Sacrificing an entire utility slot on engineer of all classes, to counter conditions, and then not being able to counter conditions when it matters most, is a fatal flaw of the skill, and it's why I suggested making it instant cast as well as boosting its power with a couple anti-condi boons.

Condition counters need to be fast. half a second of cast time is usually a considerable amount damage taken. Tossing elixir C also being slow and having its projectile travel time adds up. If you're moving, you need to toss the elixir in front of you, which makes it arc for an additional half a second. So in cases where you have few condis ticking and want to use the throw version, you end up taking a full second of condition damage.

In cases where you have a ton of condi, and need to chug the elixir C itself, the half a second cast time is enough to take a ton of damage. And condi builds usually pack a bunch of CC. Not being able to cleanse while CC'd is rough.

[Kenjiro.5074]

30 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

2 additional stacks could be granted if used with gadgeteer.

This made me think. Maybe make it so it breaks stuns with gadgeteer equipped, and then make the burning baseline!

[Kenjiro.5074]

I wish whoever is spamming "confused" reaction on all of my comments would tell me what's making you so confused :p

[ShadowLurker.8713]

20 hours ago, Kenjiro.5074 said:

My suggestions:

• Elixir 😄 As for most elixirs, their cast time is way too long. Tossing it is way too janky. It used to be one of engi's only ways to get more cleanses, but now with tools minor, it's not as needed, and also competes with scrapper purge gyro and holo's cauterize.
  • Solution: Make it instant cast. Have it provide resistance and resolution. Toss versions of all elixirs should have faster projectile velocity.
• Elixir R: It's not damage, it's not a stunbreak. If you need endurance to dodge, you usually can't afford 1/4 a second to drink the elixir and then dodge. 
  • Solution: Make it instant cast and a stunbreak, and increase endurance regeneration by 100% for 5 seconds. In pve, make the throw version instantly rez downed allies. This would make it useful for supports in pve, and in pvp it would be a situationally decent pick if using alchemy and explosives, with allies, as the rez field can be useful.
• Personal Battering Ram
  • Problem: Not a stunbreak, low damage. Compare it to warrior's stomp: it has the same CC, but half the radius, and doesn't have a leap component. Stomp is a stunbreak and it provides stability.
  • Solution: Make it a stunbreak. Make it the condi version of throw mine: an option for a non kit condi damage source, tied to the toolbelt. It could add burning and confusion. In pvp, make it a single stack.

I think this highlights the problem with core engi in general. They don't have enough stunbreaks that are also useful skills. For example guardian has meditations that are stunbreaks AND condi cleanse or teleport. Yes we have utility goggles but thats not as useful as you think.

I personally would want kit swap to be a stunbreak... I know that's a crazy idea but in all of the builds I try to conjure up for core engi, stunbreaks are the main problem. We usually can only equip one stunbreak, even if its just on the toolbelt bar. Many classes have multiple stunbreaks and that makes them viable, especially in pvp. Idk as engi it just feels bad to die to cc lock cuz we only have one stunbreak...

Again if kit swap was a stunbreak that would be heaven for me as an engi. Put it in the tools trait line, maybe in streamlined kits but with a 10 second cooldown 😛 I can dream can't I?

[Kenjiro.5074]

1 hour ago, ShadowLurker.8713 said:

I think this highlights the problem with core engi in general. They don't have enough stunbreaks that are also useful skills. For example guardian has meditations that are stunbreaks AND condi cleanse or teleport. Yes we have utility goggles but thats not as useful as you think.

I personally would want kit swap to be a stunbreak... I know that's a crazy idea but in all of the builds I try to conjure up for core engi, stunbreaks are the main problem. We usually can only equip one stunbreak, even if its just on the toolbelt bar. Many classes have multiple stunbreaks and that makes them viable, especially in pvp. Idk as engi it just feels bad to die to cc lock cuz we only have one stunbreak...

Again if kit swap was a stunbreak that would be heaven for me as an engi. Put it in the tools trait line, maybe in streamlined kits but with a 10 second cooldown 😛 I can dream can't I?

Yeah I feel the same. 10s cd stunbreak from a trait seems a bit overtuned but yeah let us dream haha

[jason.1083]

33 minutes ago, Kenjiro.5074 said:

Yeah I feel the same. 10s cd stunbreak from a trait seems a bit overtuned but yeah let us dream haha

It's not overturned at all, considering so many other classes can get an equivalent to that, maybe even better if you count in stability generation.

Holosmith used to have 2 stacks of stability on Crystal Configuration: Eclipse, which is basically 4 seconds of stability on a 6 second cooldown,(Which I wish we could have back) add some boon uptime and you could have perma 2 stability stacks, not a stunbreak, but at that point you rarely even needed one.

Don't get me wrong for comparing core Engi to an Espec, but they shouldn't be too far apart in terms of power level anyway.

So yeah at this point, a 10sec CD stunbreak is perfectly reasonable. Especially considering it triggers on a "weapon swap" meaning it has a downside in some situations.

Edited October 14, 2023 by jason.1083

[Kenjiro.5074]

49 minutes ago, jason.1083 said:

It's not overturned at all, considering so many other classes can get an equivalent to that, maybe even better if you count in stability generation.

Holosmith used to have 2 stacks of stability on Crystal Configuration: Eclipse, which is basically 4 seconds of stability on a 6 second cooldown,(Which I wish we could have back) add some boon uptime and you could have perma 2 stability stacks, not a stunbreak, but at that point you rarely even needed one.

Don't get me wrong for comparing core Engi to an Espec, but they shouldn't be too far apart in terms of power level anyway.

So yeah at this point, a 10sec CD stunbreak is perfectly reasonable. Especially considering it triggers on a "weapon swap" meaning it has a downside in some situations.

I feel like a 10s cooldown stunbreak would be bad for the game. Landing a CC skill should be rewarded, and if someone can have their stunbreak back faster than you can have your CC skill back, then CC skills become useless.

Though I was assuming the trait would only trigger if we're stunned, kinda like our old lesser utility goggles trait. If it triggers like speedy kits then I'd have no problem with it!

[jason.1083]

1 hour ago, Kenjiro.5074 said:

I feel like a 10s cooldown stunbreak would be bad for the game. Landing a CC skill should be rewarded, and if someone can have their stunbreak back faster than you can have your CC skill back, then CC skills become useless.

Though I was assuming the trait would only trigger if we're stunned, kinda like our old lesser utility goggles trait. If it triggers like speedy kits then I'd have no problem with it!

That's the thing though, it's super common for people to chain multiple CC skills to force through 1 or 2 stunbreaks like that. And then Dps you from100-0 in 3 seconds. I myself use 5 hard CC skills in my build, including a knockback, a stun, a pull, and 2 launches most of which are AoE. 

For that reason it's fine to have it proc anytime we swap kits (when disabled ofc). And as I said, sometimes it may be a hindrance to swap a kit to stunbreak, since you may loose a specific attack window, so it has a negative side to balance with the "low CD".

 

 

[Matoro.9708]

On 10/13/2023 at 7:55 AM, SeTect.5918 said:

they will never make turrets good because turrets are permanent until you destroy them or someone else destroys them. Thats why turrets support "afk-farming". This is the reason why they are so bad.
But why dont they simply give turrets a duration? I dont know.

Turrets are much worse than necro minion farming and yet that remains more viable in all game modes. They made turret farming even stronger with mechanist. They certainly have a suspicious blind spot in this regard. 

 

As for OP, I feel these changes would be homogenizing. Yes, many professions are hilariously strong and set a standard for gameplay that core engi will never live up to. But I honestly think that it remains a class that remained true to itself in core (besides turrets) and didn't go crazy like many other classes did.

I made a whole QOL post that went over basically every core engi skill I thought needed a reasonable change, so I won't do it again here. Turrets as well could be pretty easily fixed, but they are working on the next unicorn focus skin or something instead.

[Kenjiro.5074]

19 hours ago, jason.1083 said:

I myself use 5 hard CC skills in my build, including a knockback, a stun, a pull, and 2 launches most of which are AoE. 

Hmm that's a good point, CC skills are more common than stunbreaks. 

5 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said:

As for OP, I feel these changes would be homogenizing.

I disagree with that. Making a few completely unusable skills into new options isn't really homogenizing, what I suggested doesn't give engineers access to anything that they didn't have before. Maybe before, I'd agree that being weak to conditions was one of engineer's weaknesses, but that ship has sailed long ago. And sacrificing an utility to counter conditions is a big price to pay as an engineer.

5 hours ago, Matoro.9708 said:

I made a whole QOL post

That's cool, can you link it? Would love to see your take on this topic!

Edited October 15, 2023 by Kenjiro.5074

[Dirame.8521]

On 10/13/2023 at 4:25 PM, Kenjiro.5074 said:

 

What else would you suggest to bring these utilities I mentioned up to par? Specifically Elixir R and PBR as you seem to have an issue with giving them stunbreaks.

To be fair, Elixir R feels like it should be a stun break. PBR on the other hand, doesn't. 

For changes to PBR to make it useful in PvP? Make it hit at least 3 people and give might per target hit, and make the toolbelt have an Ammo system with 3 shots available on a 2s CD between shots and 15s CD overall.

Elixir R just needs to do more than give dodge bar to be useful. Toss Elixir R causes fear for 2s to enemies in a 360 radius whilst also rezzing people. Drink Elixir R gives you endurance, Superspeed and stability and breaks stun. (Why break all these buffs? Well if you're going to rez someone you want to not only be able to throw the Elixir, but you also want to be able to get to them to double rez them, and then have the stability to not get stunned whilst you rez them)

Edited October 28, 2023 by Dirame.8521

[draxynnic.3719]

On 10/15/2023 at 4:54 PM, Matoro.9708 said:

Turrets are much worse than necro minion farming and yet that remains more viable in all game modes. They made turret farming even stronger with mechanist. They certainly have a suspicious blind spot in this regard. 

I'm pretty sure what really killed turrets was sPvP - while turrets were good, you could use a bunch of turrets to bunker a point, while the engineer could be hiding somewhere nearby off-point ready to swoop in and/or be somewhere else entirely. The engineer could also afford to be using fairly heavy bunkering stats because the turrets did the damage. Necromancer at least needed to be near where the minions were going to act, and minions were always balanced to be a relatively minor component of your damage.

Turrets were killed before ArenaNet recognised that skill splits between modes was necessary, so they were also killed in PvE, and have been buried even deeper since by power creep.

That said, I do agree with the person who said to give them more limited duration in exchange for better damage. That's been the trend for other skills with similar problems (mesmer phantasms, guardian spirit weapons). Could potentially make it limited ammunition rather than a limited lifespan so they can still be used to prepare a position, but still won't last indefinitely. 

[Arantheal.7396]

On 10/28/2023 at 10:12 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

I'm pretty sure what really killed turrets was sPvP - while turrets were good, you could use a bunch of turrets to bunker a point, while the engineer could be hiding somewhere nearby off-point ready to swoop in and/or be somewhere else entirely. The engineer could also afford to be using fairly heavy bunkering stats because the turrets did the damage. Necromancer at least needed to be near where the minions were going to act, and minions were always balanced to be a relatively minor component of your damage.

Turrets were killed before ArenaNet recognised that skill splits between modes was necessary, so they were also killed in PvE, and have been buried even deeper since by power creep.

That said, I do agree with the person who said to give them more limited duration in exchange for better damage. That's been the trend for other skills with similar problems (mesmer phantasms, guardian spirit weapons). Could potentially make it limited ammunition rather than a limited lifespan so they can still be used to prepare a position, but still won't last indefinitely. 

I made a post about turret changes a while ago:

Basically, get rid of turrets, and give us traps instead, designed after the throw mine skill. I like turrets conceptionally, but lets be real, there were good reasons why they were nerfed to oblivion. I wouldn't mind to get rid of them entirely / salvage their utility spots, and the little use engi got out of them, to give us a more proactive utility option instead. And traps both fit the engi's fluff, and our areal denial profile.

 

[Jerus.4350]

When it comes to Turrets, I'd love if they used the Mechanist weapon skill 3 style of effect (Rocket Punch).  Tie each turret to a weapon skill number, so for example Rifle Turret's shot will only trigger when you use weapon skill 2.  Thumper turret maybe triggers on the 5 skill to make it a longer reuse time.  No more passive effects, just what you cause them to do.

[draxynnic.3719]

2 hours ago, Arantheal.7396 said:

I made a post about turret changes a while ago:

Basically, get rid of turrets, and give us traps instead, designed after the throw mine skill. I like turrets conceptionally, but lets be real, there were good reasons why they were nerfed to oblivion. I wouldn't mind to get rid of them entirely / salvage their utility spots, and the little use engi got out of them, to give us a more proactive utility option instead. And traps both fit the engi's fluff, and our areal denial profile.

 

Nah, turrets are workable, they just need to have a limited duration. We've seen turretlike mechanics work on other professions by giving them limited durations.

[Voramoz.6790]

Multi-Kit Engineer been normative forever now. That's a huge problem for every skill that isn't a kit. As the game gets older, the roles of the real meta in PVE, WVW, and PVP have become more solidified. Even heal Mech and heal Scrapper run double kit via MedKit and Mortar. So, Engineer utilities become difficult to balance because kits are so important and effective. In a way, almost every Engineer skill, with the exception of Holosmith and Mechanist skills, needs balance in order to become relevant compared to kits. Holosmith skills still suffer because they rely on the ramping heat mechanic, so it makes more sense to cycle kits than to run Exceeds. Mechanist is in a fine place because of the mech, but triple kit condi-mech has become more of a thing. Scrapper gyros received some love in recent years, but they've dipped in and out of relevance. More relevance from other utilities could reduce over-reliance on kits and really should be the priority for Engi moving forward. That said, Engineer is in a very strong place in every meta right now, and we have to respect that fact, but only specific builds with a limited range of utilities compared to Turrets, Elixirs, and Gadgets, which overall are not seeing much play by comparison.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Voramoz.6790