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Independent Elite Specializations and Utility Skills for Everyone.


Terrorangel.1526

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So, we did get the weaponmaster training and now have access to every weapon even without its corresponding elite specialization. 

Something that has always been very appealing to me personally was brewing builds with the idea of having access to all the utility skills a profession has independent of the specialization.

I am aware that many of them are tied to a certain mechanic of an elite specialization, but the thought of using any of them is very exciting.

 

Something that has always bothered me is the limitation that comes with an elite specialization. To me it feels like being forced to play a certain way, because the traits of the specialization determine which utility skills I use to get the most out of the specialization. Of course can I play everything however I like to, even if it is not "the optimal" way to do it. But just imagining throwing a trap as core guardian or using a stance as core ranger seems nice.

I would love an option in the trait-window to choose my specialization, totally independent of any trait lines that I use. Of course, the corresponding trait lines do improve the specializations a lot, but I could also choose to use 3 vanilla trait lines and still play my specialization. There have always been traits that improved certain utility skills, but you didn't need to use the trait for playing with a skill.

What is the difference to right now, you may ask, since we already have access to all weapons. For example could I choose to play an elite specialization and have access to the specialization f1-f5 related skills without using the traits of that specialization at all. 
For example an Elementalist playing as a Tempest and having access to overloads but using Earth-Fire-Water Traits. Or the Necromancer being able to freely choose the shroud they want to use.

There have been many times where I would love to use the Necromancers core Deathshroud while using shouts or playing as core Guardian with the normal virtues but using the traps of Dragonhunter, the list goes on.

I can foresee the argument that having access to even more utility skills to choose from can make it harder for new players to make their builds. But at the time they are able to actually train the elite specialization, they are already level 80 and that's enough time in my  opinion to get an idea of the core skills.

I would like to know if there are others that thought about something similar and would like to hear your opinion about that. Which combination would you like to try?

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17 hours ago, Terrorangel.1526 said:

So, we did get the weaponmaster training and now have access to every weapon even without its corresponding elite specialization. 

Something that has always been very appealing to me personally was brewing builds with the idea of having access to all the utility skills a profession has independent of the specialization.

I am aware that many of them are tied to a certain mechanic of an elite specialization, but the thought of using any of them is very exciting.

 

Something that has always bothered me is the limitation that comes with an elite specialization. To me it feels like being forced to play a certain way, because the traits of the specialization determine which utility skills I use to get the most out of the specialization. Of course can I play everything however I like to, even if it is not "the optimal" way to do it. But just imagining throwing a trap as core guardian or using a stance as core ranger seems nice.

I would love an option in the trait-window to choose my specialization, totally independent of any trait lines that I use. Of course, the corresponding trait lines do improve the specializations a lot, but I could also choose to use 3 vanilla trait lines and still play my specialization. There have always been traits that improved certain utility skills, but you didn't need to use the trait for playing with a skill.

What is the difference to right now, you may ask, since we already have access to all weapons. For example could I choose to play an elite specialization and have access to the specialization f1-f5 related skills without using the traits of that specialization at all. 
For example an Elementalist playing as a Tempest and having access to overloads but using Earth-Fire-Water Traits. Or the Necromancer being able to freely choose the shroud they want to use.

There have been many times where I would love to use the Necromancers core Deathshroud while using shouts or playing as core Guardian with the normal virtues but using the traps of Dragonhunter, the list goes on.

I can foresee the argument that having access to even more utility skills to choose from can make it harder for new players to make their builds. But at the time they are able to actually train the elite specialization, they are already level 80 and that's enough time in my  opinion to get an idea of the core skills.

I would like to know if there are others that thought about something similar and would like to hear your opinion about that. Which combination would you like to try?

Ya. This is one of the best things A-net can do for the game; which is to present the player options. 
 

Be fearful though…there are people out there that think opening up options to the player like this is homogenization. Their completely wrong about that but none the less they still believe that removing your options and restricting your gameplay is the “healthy” route for the game. 

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Opening these options doesn't achieve much more than further messing with the -already not so great- balance, overloading builds -while we could use less power creep, not more of it- and triggering new sets of nerfs.

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Be fearful though…there are people out there that think opening up options to the player like this is homogenization. Their completely wrong about that but none the less they still believe that removing your options and restricting your gameplay is the “healthy” route for the game. 

Bluring the lines between the specs and classes is homogenizing them. Careful -if someone tries caliming otherwise, they apparently don't understand what they're talking about. Adding especs along with their skills/traits didn't somehow remove options and restrict your gameplay btw. I'm also not sure why anyone should be "fearful" here.

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3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Bluring the lines between the specs and classes is homogenizing them.

It’s not, and the reason why is mathematical.

the big picture is that as options become available, the space of possible build combinations increases…and what follows is just a straight up mathematical fact. Less options : less possible builds : faster collapse to a homogenous state. More options : more possible builds : slower collapse to a homogenous state.

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7 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

It’s not, and the reason why is mathematical.

the big picture is that as options become available, the space of possible build combinations increases…and what follows is just a straight up mathematical fact. Less options : less possible builds : faster collapse to a homogenous state. More options : more possible builds : slower collapse to a homogenous state.

Sobx doesn't do the best job at explaining things.  I'll try to fill in all of the minutia in one go.

The biggest issue with unlocking all of the utilities is that, for most practical senses, they are duplicates of each other.  Most of them can be put into very broad categories (strike damage, condi damage, mobility, CC, active defenses) that function with either minimal or no meaningful differences between the utilities.  For example, consider Shredder Gyro and Laser Disk from the engineer.  They are extremely similar skills with the same goal of inflicting PBAoE strike damage.  They're redundant skills, effectively, and in an unlocked system the higher damaging one will be taken over the other.  With the inevitable balance update that follows, the overperformers that were fine in a locked system will be nerfed in the unlocked system. This effectively changing all of these skills into the same one and forcing players, both socially and practically, to play the best spec.

The locked system creates opportunity costs to specializations that exchanges the advantages with disadvantages between their utility skills, giving a unique flavor to each specialization.  Unlocking the system shifts the opportunity costs solely to trait selection, or removes the costs entirely in many circumstances.  The lack of opportunity costs reduces buildcraft further into being the 5 highest value utilities you can pick.  For PVE, it is the 5 utilities that will do the most damage.  PvP and WvW are a bit more complicated, but that is the reason why I said "value" instead of "DPS".  If we combine this with unlocked weapons, we create a situation where the specializations exist to serve the best utility/weapon loadout.  There's very little left to exchange trait-wise, so the specializations will be reduced in function and identity.  It becomes far easier to "solve" a profession or a format when the costs aren't bundled together anymore.  

You've said it yourself that the issues lie within the immediate comparability between utility skills in their function.  Unlocking the system without resolving those issues first is putting the cart before the horse.  In our current game, unlocking the utilities is going to lead to a leap in power creep, followed by a series of nerfs to reign it all in.  Substantial redesigns would be needed to be done from the ground up before the unlocking becomes a good idea.

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2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Sobx doesn't do the best job at explaining things.  I'll try to fill in all of the minutia in one go.

The biggest issue with unlocking all of the utilities is that, for most practical senses, they are duplicates of each other.  Most of them can be put into very broad categories (strike damage, condi damage, mobility, CC, active defenses) that function with either minimal or no meaningful differences between the utilities.  For example, consider Shredder Gyro and Laser Disk from the engineer.  They are extremely similar skills with the same goal of inflicting PBAoE strike damage.  They're redundant skills, effectively, and in an unlocked system the higher damaging one will be taken over the other.  With the inevitable balance update that follows, the overperformers that were fine in a locked system will be nerfed in the unlocked system. This effectively changing all of these skills into the same one and forcing players, both socially and practically, to play the best spec.

The locked system creates opportunity costs to specializations that exchanges the advantages with disadvantages between their utility skills, giving a unique flavor to each specialization.  Unlocking the system shifts the opportunity costs solely to trait selection, or removes the costs entirely in many circumstances.  The lack of opportunity costs reduces buildcraft further into being the 5 highest value utilities you can pick.  For PVE, it is the 5 utilities that will do the most damage.  PvP and WvW are a bit more complicated, but that is the reason why I said "value" instead of "DPS".  If we combine this with unlocked weapons, we create a situation where the specializations exist to serve the best utility/weapon loadout.  There's very little left to exchange trait-wise, so the specializations will be reduced in function and identity.  It becomes far easier to "solve" a profession or a format when the costs aren't bundled together anymore.  

You've said it yourself that the issues lie within the immediate comparability between utility skills in their function.  Unlocking the system without resolving those issues first is putting the cart before the horse.  In our current game, unlocking the utilities is going to lead to a leap in power creep, followed by a series of nerfs to reign it all in.  Substantial redesigns would be needed to be done from the ground up before the unlocking becomes a good idea.

Ya precisely. What the skills do, and how different the options are to one another is as important as permutation. This is also how games simple like Rock Paper Scissors, can maintain their arbitrarily complicated nature while only having 3 choices.

I didn’t want to start talking about that facet because I’ve had enough trouble trying to tell people about it…so I’m trying my best to just keep things simple.

but thank you at least you understand this quite clearly. 
 

What should also be mentioned is that both of these properties; how meaningful/different the options are, and how the ability to permute options are not mutually exclusive to one another…rather that they both benefit from one another exponentially: the more meaningful the options are, the more useful the ability to permute them is, and so ideally for guild wars 2 both of these things would be the goal. If anet does one or the other either one is a step in the right direction.

if anet designed stuff to be more meaningful, I would definitely take that too, course this wasn’t the central attention of the thread

Cheers,

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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11 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

It’s not, and the reason why is mathematical.

the big picture is that as options become available, the space of possible build combinations increases…and what follows is just a straight up mathematical fact. Less options : less possible builds : faster collapse to a homogenous state. More options : more possible builds : slower collapse to a homogenous state.

and yet Weapon Master training proves your hypothesis wrong because while the amount of potential builds increased, the actual use cases for certain weapons decreased in PvE where "simple math" is all that matters due to the scripted nature of the content.

The only place where some change occurred is PvP and WvW and that is due to not strait mathematical factors (given utility is situational and not easily put into numeric values. In some cases a utility can be absolute, in other cases that same utility might be useless) and even here, some weapons which were similar in role, bullied out the others.

This is your useless healer math all over without actual in game application.

Guild Wars 1 was a perfect example of maximum flexibility with minimal builds. Sure, in the mid range there was more builds, but when maximized and optimized, the amount of builds shrunk down to as few as 10-15 skills per class, with hundreds of skills at their disposal.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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8 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Ya precisely. What the skills do, and how different the options are to one another is as important as permutation. This is also how games simple like Rock Paper Scissors, can maintain their arbitrarily complicated nature while only having 3 choices.

I didn’t want to start talking about that facet because I’ve had enough trouble trying to tell people about it…so I’m trying my best to just keep things simple.

but thank you at least you understand this quite clearly. 
 

both of these properties; how meaningful/different the options are, and how the ability to permute options are not mutually exclusive to one another…rather that they both benefit from one another exponentially: the more meaningful the options are, the more useful the ability to permute them is, and so ideally for guild wars 2 both of these things would be the goal. If anet does one or the other either one is a step in the right direction.

if anet designed stuff to be more meaningful, I would definitely take that too, course this wasn’t the central attention of the thread

Cheers,

The shortest way I can say it is that the restrictions that bundle e-spec traits, weapons, and utilities together are themselves the meaningful complexity behind the options.  In theory they aren't mutually exclusive.  In practice... we're talking about GW2, which was very much built that way.  

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9 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Guild Wars 1 was a perfect example of maximum flexibility with minimal builds. Sure, in the mid range there was more builds, but when maximized and optimized, the amount of builds shrunk down to as few as 10-15 skills per class, with hundreds of skills at their disposal.

Lol you never played gw1. This statement is all I need to hear for me to know that.

do you know how many builds existed in that game? Thousands…and those are just the ones that are documented.  you can go look up some of them yourself even today.

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flare way, contagion spike, hexway, rainbow ways, thumpers, Eoe bombs, invoke spike, RTL spike, glaiveway, discord spike, Iways, Rways

there were so many builds (and comps) they usually received unique names (as you can tell) some names after the people who make them and some named after a defining trademark of the builds. There wasn’t enough names for skills to cover all the builds that existed so people just made up names.

55 monk, 600 monks smite monks…several monk builds (Woh’s, Glimmers, the condi cleansers (RC), HB’s, UY’s, LS, DH’s) Touch Rangers, BB’s (warriors and assassins)…

My favorite builds was Emo (ele healer), and a Rit/ele healer for RA that used Second Wind.

I could go on and on and on. These are just what I remember from the tippy top of my head after 15 years…Barely scratched the surface.
 

 

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44 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Lol you never played gw1. This statement is all I need to hear for me to know that.

do you know how many builds existed in that game? Thousands…and those are just the ones that are documented.  you can go look up some of them yourself even today.

Fine, I'll prove your math does not hold up to this games build criteria.

Let's take healing skills. Baseline every class has 4 healing skills. Elites have 1 more, so 5 total now, 7 total discounting racials (by the way, a great example of skills not increasing actual build variety) if every skill became available.

Now Arenanet could add 1 new healing skill to every class, which did NOTHING. Just an empty skill on the healing slot.

All those numbers up top would increase by 1. The math would clearly show that build variety increased. In game that skill would NEVER be used. That's what you are not accounting for. Even worse, you are not accounting for the fact that elite skills, similar to elite weapons, were balanced specifically for that elite, which might mean they were stronger than baseline skills. Opening these skills up to compete with each other would bully out some skills.

I'm not saying your math is wrong. I'm saying your math is insufficient to represent in game realities and you are to proud and stubborn to realize/accept that.

As to GW1 having 1,000 of builds: it did and yet the majority of them saw no use, EVER. Even the builds you mentioned only represent not even 1/3rd of the potential skills that game had, most sharing skills even. When your game has dozens to hundreds of builds out of potential MILLIONS, yeah that's not a big number. Have you done the math on the absolute potential of GW1 builds with the skill system in pace there?

You are confiscating potential build variety with meaningful build variety.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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7 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I'm not saying your math is wrong.

Of course it's not....Go look up permutations or combinations on google.

 

Quote

Fine, I'll prove your math does not hold up to this games build criteria.

Let's take healing skills. Baseline every class has 4 healing skills. Elites have 1 more, so 5 total now, 7 total discounting racials (by the way, a great example of skills not increasing actual build variety) if every skill became available.

Now Arenanet could add 1 new healing skill to every class, which did NOTHING. Just an empty skill on the healing slot.

All those numbers up top would increase by 1. The math would clearly show that build variety increased. In game that skill would NEVER be used.

 

So let's see shall we?

If you have 1 heal skill, 3 utilities and 1 elite skill how many builds can you make? Just 1.

If you have 2 heal skills, 6 utilities, and 2 elites, how many builds can you make? 80.

Now your examples, and more closely related to the sample size of the game:

If you have 4 heal skills, 20 utilities and 4 elite skills how many builds can you make? 18,240.

If you have 5 heal skills (adding this one heal skill) 20 utilities and 4 elite skills, how many builds can you make? 22,800.

 

So firstly, yea you are wrong, sorry to burst the bubble.

Secondly, what you are actually talking about (that nobody would want to take useless skills added into the game, or optimizing through skills because some are clearly better than others), then just read up above, the very quick discussion with Arachnid, who clearly understands the problem. That meaningless or comparable options exist in the game, is a problem.

What opening options do is increases the ability for builds to be made in the space of possible builds...whether those skills are meaningfully different and non-trivial is a different property and adjacent story, as it is the other half of the issue of the games design...but it has nothing to do with the ability for combinations and permutations to increase the number of possible build creations that can exist, and therefor the potential build variety as a result of opening combinations or permutations is always positive.

Thirdly, why did i ask ChatGPT to do this for me? Because there is no way I'm going to iterate over such a sample size (18000 - 24000) to answer your question. If anyone wants to actually fact check Chat GPT, be my guest.

Feel free to read the entire correspondence here: https://chat.openai.com/share/43bd65b0-ebe9-4d8b-9342-912c772ac85a

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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22 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Of course it's not....Go look up permutations or combinations on google.

 

So let's see shall we?

If you have 1 heal skill, 3 utilities and 1 elite skill how many builds can you make? Just 1.

If you have 2 heal skills, 6 utilities, and 2 elites, how many builds can you make? 80.

Now your examples, and more closely related to the sample size of the game:

If you have 4 heal skills, 20 utilities and 4 elite skills how many builds can you make? 18,240.

If you have 5 heal skills (adding this one heal skill) 20 utilities and 4 elite skills, how many builds can you make? 22,800.

I gave you a perfect example of how increasing the amount of skills does NOT result in more actual builds. You can keep ignoring that, as you always do, or actually realize that there is a difference between possible builds and actual builds seeing play.

To answer the last 2 questions: if that 1 additional heal skill never sees use, the amount of builds remains at 18240, no matter if the total possible number of combinations has increased.

We have seen these effects in this game, most recently with weapon mastery and we have seen these effects in GW1.

Quote

What opening options do is increases the ability for builds to be made in the space of possible builds...whether those skills are meaningfully different and non-trivial is a different property and adjacent story, as it is the other half of the issue of the games design...but it has nothing to do with the ability for combinations and permutations to increase the number of possible build creations that can exist, and therefor the potential build variety as a result of opening combinations or permutations is always positive.

Yes, and if game design can never actually result in properly creating a situation where these more meaningful build combinations actual come to pass, and worse yet, actually leads to less overall builds, then that is calling a spade a spade. Which is exactly what would happen if the developers went down this route.

Best seen in classes like necromancer. While there used to be condi builds without torch in the offhand, now every single condi build, no matter which elite specialization, uses torch. But hey, they "could" use something else, because the math says so. They just don't.

Edited by Cyninja.2954
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3 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

I gave you a perfect example of how increasing the amount of skills does NOT result in more actual builds. You can keep ignoring that, as you always do, or actually realize that there is a difference between possible builds and actual builds seeing play.

To answer the last 2 questions: if that 1 additional heal skill never sees use, the amount of builds remains at 18240, no matter if the total possible number of combinations has increased.

We have seen these effects in this game, most recently with weapon mastery and we have seen these effects in GW1.

Yes, and if game design can never actually result in properly creating a situation where these more meaningful build combinations actual come to pass, and worse yet, actually leads to less overall builds, then that is calling a spade a spade. Which is exactly what would happen if the developers went down this route.

brother...alright I'm out. Clearly you have your own narrative, didn't seem to read anything i wrote, and you want to just feed lies to yourself. I have better things to do.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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17 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

It’s not, and the reason why is mathematical.

the big picture is that as options become available, the space of possible build combinations increases…and what follows is just a straight up mathematical fact. Less options : less possible builds : faster collapse to a homogenous state. More options : more possible builds : slower collapse to a homogenous state.

It is and -again, something that was already spelled out- the reason is simply because it blurs the line between things that are suppost to differ.

The big picture is that this doesn't achieve much more than further messing with the -already not so great- balance, overloading builds -while we could use less power creep, not more of it- and triggering new sets of nerfs. More options don't really result in actual more realistically used builds because the subsequent balance passes drive the line back and what remains is a slightly changed roster of similar number of builds. That's simply a fact, we've already seen this, nothing about this is a secret and repeating "this is mathematical" only shows your lack of understanding of the issue you're trying to discuss here.
Seriously, everyone knows that more elements = more possible combinations (because it seems that's what you're trying to say while repeating "I can prove it mathematically"), but some raw number of combinations is irrelevant to anything said here and certainly doesn't do anything against the argument of bluring the lines between the specs/classes.

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3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

It is and -again, something that was already spelled out- the reason is simply because it blurs the line between things that are suppost to differ.

1) What makes people differ are the 8 skills people choose to take on the bar not classes or specs which are superficial. Because in fact you do at all times have access to all the skills in the game. Simply go to character creation and you now have access to all the skills in the game.

2) it doesn’t introduce power creep, it exposes the power creep that was snuck into the game years ago and reveals the flawed design of elite specs to begin with. Elite specs are supposed to be an upgrade right? Then what was stopping people from taking the elite spec over core prior to Soto since they are upgrades? Nothing… people in fact did exactly that…went to pick the upgrade because that makes sense to do…because they are upgrades…so the collapse to a homogenous state of the game still happens: people flock to elite specs. Designing them as upgrades was a continual mistake that they made. Just a reminder: Power creep was happening way before weaponmastery…now you actually know where it comes from.

3) The problem of nerf balance is a can of worms related to the effectiveness of nerf operations in a game where all your options are trivial and comparable to one another

If you have two skills A and B…

skill a 20000 damage

skill b : 3000 damage 

then obviously you are going to pick skill A, and skill A receiving nerfs will effectively make them the same thing as they get balanced into equalization (the  actual homogenization procedure being numerical nerfs/buffs)

The meaningfulness and non-comparability between two skills is what actually makes them different…  

for instance

Skill A : 5s of stability

Skill B 5s of immobilization

even though these are “equal” their mechanics are abstractly different enough that the qualities that define them can not be encompassed by numbers at all…

if you are in PVE Land where all people care about is this single number of DPS, then you will always optimize or trivialize the game as a result of this mindset so long as anet is providing you games based on trivial numeric comparison. Anet making changes in accordance to that paradigm will therefor always fail to balance the game for you in any meaningful way…because there will always be “a superior” build…since all you see is “DPS nothing else matters.”
 

guild wars 2 has enough abstract mechanics to ensure that to be always true…as you can tell given two example skills above that are numerically the same…there will be builds that can NEVER be equalized by number balance ever…

so refer to the conversation with arachnid.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

1) What makes people differ are the 8 skills people choose to take on the bar not classes or specs which are superficial. Because in fact you do at all times have access to all the skills in the game. Simply go to character creation and you now have access to all the skills in the game.

You kind of do, except you still have to make a meaningful choice and those pools do make a meaningful distinction between the classes and especs. Blur these lines and you make classes/especs nearly the same, hence the constant mention of homogenizing which, for some reason, you somehow still apaprently fail to understand whenever anyone mentions it.

2 hours ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

2) it doesn’t introduce power creep, it exposes the power creep that was snuck into the game years ago and reveals the flawed design of elite specs to begin with.

Wrong. The hypothetical builds that aren't currently available due to specific -and clearly intended- game mechanics in regards of build creation aren't somehow "just waiting in hiding to be exposed". The changes to that system and ideas of "opening all options at the same time" is what adds to the power creep.

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44 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Wrong. The hypothetical builds that aren't currently available due to specific -and clearly intended- game mechanics in regards of build creation aren't somehow "just waiting in hiding to be exposed". The changes to that system and ideas of "opening all options at the same time" is what adds to the power creep.

I've been correct twice now, you think i'll be wrong a third time?

Powercreep has existed in every single of expansion since the first expansion...huh I wonder why? coincidence? Oh maybe because the elite specs were designed to power-creep the game...to sell expansions.

Unless you live under a rock, opening options has no direct correlation to power-creep since opening options just started in SOTO when power-creep has existed in this game long before then.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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13 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I've been correct twice now, you think i'll be wrong a third time?

No, you were not and it was explained why. All your initial posts show is your misunderstanding about what people are saying when they mention homogenizing professions and specs.

13 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Powercreep has existed in every single of expansion since the first expansion...huh I wonder why? coincidence? Oh maybe because the elite specs were designed to power-creep the game...to sell expansions.

And where did I say thatpower creep doesn't exist at all? If anything, I did mention that it just adds to the power creep, you're quoting my posts and then avoid what they actually said to look for a weird "gotcha" that's not even there.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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On 10/14/2023 at 7:33 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

Opening these options doesn't achieve much more than further messing with the -already not so great- balance, overloading builds -while we could use less power creep, not more of it- and triggering new sets of nerfs.

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

The changes to that system and ideas of "opening all options at the same time" is what adds to the power creep.

👆 Please pay more attention to what you're commenting on instead of being so focused on "catching me missing something" where I did say it more than once. If anyone's missing something in this thread over and over again, it's rather clearly you.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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9 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

No, you were not and it was explained why. All your initial posts show is your misunderstanding about what people are saying when they mention homogenizing professions and specs.

Bro just said "initial posts" as in you only read the first post and read nothing else that has been typed? Alright I'm out because I choose to live in the world where people prove things and validate them. You can believe whatever you want. Believe that elite specs never power-crept the game, believe that combinations and permutations don't exist (even thought that's how you are even able to use a computer to begin with) , believe that number balance will eventually work out for you. 

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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Just now, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

Bro just said "initial posts" as in you only read the first post and read nothing else that has been typed? Alright I'm out because I choose to live in the world where people prove things and validate them. You can believe whatever you want. Believe that elite specs never power-crept the game, believe that combinations don't exist, believe that number balance will eventually work out for you. 

Sure, "be out" if that's what you want, no need to announce that. You're still the one who's missing what people are saying here, including my posts you've quoted.

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14 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sure, "be out" if that's what you want, no need to announce that. You're still the one who's missing what people are saying here, including my posts you've quoted.

You think I didn't read what you just posted which is why you linked it to me again? lol

"no need to announce that."

Funny thing is, you don't get to tell me what I need or need not do. can or can not do.

Anyway i really do have to leave though, but final thing i'll say : Is that OP has enough evidence of what to take away from this conversation (funny I have been right three times in this thread not just two, but that's cause yall make it easy.), and he can go and do the research on his own, and i will do my best in pinpointing all the lies that get thrown around by people in this thread, like the obvious lying about guild wars 1 (gw1 never suffered from diversity problem, nobody ever even talked about diversity back then, stop making up kitten to support a fictitious argument). So you wanna continue giving non-answers and responding by linking your own comments right above you in the thread, go head.

Edited by JusticeRetroHunter.7684
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I feel like people should really stop trying to have a good faith discussion with this hilariously smug person that's, in actuality, pretty much just a Dunning Kruger elemental with 0 reading comprehension. You're only going to get the same response over and over again, because they're not actually capable of absorbing any of the info you're putting out there either through ego or idiocy. Like jeez at least a chatbot would actually "learn" from input eventually and vary it's responses; this is just the same 3 posts regurgitated over and over no matter how the conversation shifts. Like they might not be intentionally trolling, but at some point it's a distinction without a difference if the outcome is exactly the same; so why engage with it?

Although I guess it's pretty decent schadenfreude to see somebody keep repeatedly writing out the same short essay explaining the concept of basic multiplication like they're dropping some advanced logic bomb on all of the plebs and that it's some 10000 IQ flex to understand 5th grade math, while everyone else in the thread just cringes and eyerolls at somebody thinking they're so far ahead while being so very very far behind.

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24 minutes ago, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

You think I didn't read what you just posted which is why you linked it to me again? lol

Clearly, considering you somehow arrived at the conclusion I think there wasn't power creep earlier, despite the quoted posts (which you claim you did read) talking about "needing less power creep instead of more" and about "adding" to power creep. So either you missed it completely, didn't understand what I wrote in those posts OR you intentionally tried to argue against the argument I never made in the sole attempt to start with your backhanded responses like... 

"Powercreep has existed in every single of expansion since the first expansion...huh I wonder why? coincidence?" [what is this responding to, again?]
or
"Believe that elite specs never power-crept the game[????], believe that combinations and permutations don't exist[????], believe that number balance will eventually work out for you.[????]"

...which have nothing to do with what I said. So, I'm curious now, which one was it? 🙄

 

But yeah, without change trying to blur lines between classes and especs is homogenizing them and is something many people do not want to see in the game, for a good reason. Too bad that similarly to how you sarcastically attempted to "inform me about power creep already existing" (despite my previous posts saying it's something I'm aware of and I don't want to have more of it in the game), you quoted the post about "homogenizing classes and especs" just to respond with what amounts to "more components = more  combinations possible!" as if that somehow goes against what I said.

Edited by Sobx.1758
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