Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]

[Abazigal.3679]

I haven't play raids a lot, but i believe they're " almost " fine. What's missing to me is to have at least one or two wings that can eventually be done with random pug groups. To me, raids should be designed so 1st wing is rather " easy " and others are getting harder and require proper setups with proper tactics, including chances of failing.

When i was playing GW1, you would still find pug groups that would have chances of finishing it, but it would take 2 hours with chances of failing, while a speedrun group would do it in 30 minutes. Now in raids, when i'm getting a look at LFG, i rarely ever see pug or training group only going to test some boss, these are only elite parties.

[STIHL.2489]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.

I would SO take that bet.

So would I actuality, given that damn near every raid supporter in this topic has mentioned just buying a raid clear as a solution.

[STIHL.2489]

@nia.4725 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

Yes.. How evil of him to want to open the game up to more players.. truly the epitome of being toxic is wanting an inclusive game.

We have been over this subject matter already, care to try and new venture or are you all out of new ideas?

and just for you.. here is Carson from the Avengers.. doing Toxic.

You said it yesterday. We are ALL broken records. If Ohoni keeps saying the same again and again and again, he receives the same again and again and again.

Have you ever stopped to ponder Ohoni says the same things, because you all are saying the same things? I mean really, how unique a response can you give to the same retort you have heard a dozen times already, each time by someone that thinks they are being so original, when.. they are not.

This is a discussion.. not a scripted encounter,.. but this does show why people who wanted challenge couldn't move on to PvP which requires fluid response, as opposed to doing the same thing.. time and time and time again.

[nia.4725]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

Yes.. How evil of him to want to open the game up to more players.. truly the epitome of being toxic is wanting an inclusive game.

We have been over this subject matter already, care to try and new venture or are you all out of new ideas?

and just for you.. here is Carson from the Avengers.. doing Toxic.

You said it yesterday. We are ALL broken records. If Ohoni keeps saying the same again and again and again, he receives the same again and again and again.

Have you ever stopped to ponder Ohoni says the same things, because you all are saying the same things? I mean really, how unique a response can you give to the same retort you have heard a dozen times already, each time by someone that thinks they are being so original, when.. they are not.

This is a discussion.. not a scripted encounter,.. but this does show why people who wanted

challenge

couldn't move on to PvP which requires fluid response, as opposed to doing the same thing.. time and time and time again.

We can flip your sentence. Have you ever stopped to ponder I say the same things, because Ohoni is saying the same things?

But anyway, I've been here giving ideas to improve raids, I've even discussed some ideas about easy mode and the rewards it should give (but you didn't see it because you were banned at the time), I've been discussing some alternative ideas like a "wing 0" or a training mode... I'm not just saying the same all the time, but what I don't and won't, absolutely, never buy is an easy mode that gives all the shinies that normal raids have. And it seems that this is the only thing that Ohoni will accept.

Btw, I can't see any sense in what you say about PvP. I played PvP since I joined this game (around 2 years) and got into raiding 1 year ago. I was not part of those players who asked for challenge content.

[yann.1946]

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

Yes.. How evil of him to want to open the game up to more players.. truly the epitome of being toxic is wanting an inclusive game.

We have been over this subject matter already, care to try and new venture or are you all out of new ideas?

and just for you.. here is Carson from the Avengers.. doing Toxic.

You said it yesterday. We are ALL broken records. If Ohoni keeps saying the same again and again and again, he receives the same again and again and again.

Have you ever stopped to ponder Ohoni says the same things, because you all are saying the same things? I mean really, how unique a response can you give to the same retort you have heard a dozen times already, each time by someone that thinks they are being so original, when.. they are not.

This is a discussion.. not a scripted encounter,.. but this does show why people who wanted

challenge

couldn't move on to PvP which requires fluid response, as opposed to doing the same thing.. time and time and time again.

This PVP comparison always seemed odd to me, its like saying why didn't these people go play chess. Its a different experience entirly.

On top of that their will be people who also play PVP so no clue where you got that they don't.

PVP is made in such a way to match you against people of the same skill so its not nessecarely harder depends entirly on who you're matched with and against

[Astralporing.1957]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:And as long as LFG is full of kills/instances for sale for unreasonable prices........Nothing the "leave raids alone" crowd says will have any bearing on my opinion that the system is broken.C'mon, open lfg, a few times a day, collect the average selling prices, report them here and choke on your hypocrisy

I bet if ANet made raidselling a bannable offense, most of the opposition to easy modes would just suddenly dry up.I don't think so. On the other hand, significantly increasing the difficulty of raids

might

do just that.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -

I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a shit about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -

I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

[mortrialus.3062]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -

I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -

I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic.

read again.

'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers '

[mortrialus.3062]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -

I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic.

read again.

'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers '

Clearly you need an easy mode for reading comprehension because the specific post is about how WoW's gear treadmill gave it an organic easy and hard mode.

The sentence you're quoting isn't even in the specific post I'm responding to and not relevant to the topic at hand. It's from a completely different post.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -

I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic.

read again.

'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers '

Clearly you need an easy mode for reading comprehension because the specific post is about how WoW's gear treadmill gave it an organic easy and hard mode.

The sentence you're quoting isn't even in the specific post I'm responding to and not relevant to the topic at hand. It's from a completely different post.

you do know about timewalking dont you?

[mortrialus.3062]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -

I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic.

read again.

'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers '

Clearly you need an easy mode for reading comprehension because the specific post is about how WoW's gear treadmill gave it an organic easy and hard mode.

The sentence you're quoting isn't even in the specific post I'm responding to and not relevant to the topic at hand. It's from a completely different post.

you do know about timewalking dont you?

Dude. Like slow down and follow the conversational exchange before posting.

The actual discussion plays out like this.

Blaeys: WoW is seen as the gold standard of raids and it has easy mode. GW2 should have easy mode too.Me: WoW is seen as the gold standard because a decade ago it released iconic raid after iconic raid that were iconic in large part because of their difficulty.Blaeys: Those bosses had an organic built in difficulty curve because of how gear works in that game.Me: That's not how the gear treadmill works.

You: TIMEWALKING

It's also really funny how everyone here keeps bringing up WoW's raids when the number of people playing on the most popular private servers dedicated to faithfully recreating the vanilla WoW experience dwarfs the current number for the live game. Even after all the accessiblity and easy mode raids, far more people are going way out of their way to play the inaccessible version. I'm guessing you slept through all the Nostalrius controversy last year when millions of current and ex-WoW players were begging Blizzard to release legitimate legacy Vanilla WoW servers. I'm also guessing you're the type of person who is always arguing against official Blizzard operated legacy servers.

[Tyson.5160]

@yann.1946 said:

PVP is made in such a way to match you against people of the same skill so its not nessecarely harder depends entirly on who you're matched with and against

Not always the case, hence why people aren’t happy with the match making, that the professions attached to certain games as well.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:I had this in another thread, but it makes more sense to state it here -

I know some people do not want to accept it, but the reason WoW is seen as the posterchild for how to make raiding work in an MMO is because the developers there adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers (including and LFG and flex raid tier), they were able to do things that a game like GW2 cannot, most notably incorporating strong story and lore focused content into raids. Since they do not have to worry about the accessibility factor, raids could become a deeply integrated part of the WoW experience.

WoW is seen as the pinnacle of raiding content because a decade ago it released iconic difficult raid after iconic that people still talk about. People still talk about Ragnaros, C'thun, Kael'thas, Illidan and Arthas. No one has ever or will ever be waxing poetic about Deathwing, Ragnaros 2.0, Garrosh, or Argus the Unmaker a decade from now.

All of the bosses you mention here are now 100-1000 times easier than anything in GW2 because of the gear and level treadmills - game features that created their own sort of difficultly levels (within months of the content being released). Essentially, the content was eventually open and easily accessible to players of all skill levels through that design.

Now, gear treadmills do not exist (or belong) in GW2, so that isn't an option. The correct path to take here is to implement actual difficulty tiers - to achieve that same level of accessibility those iconic raid bosses in WoW had.

The way classic WoW worked didn't give the game an organic difficulty curve. Ragnaros was hard, and you were expected to have your raid mostly geared out from the previous bosses in Molten Core to stand a chance against him. The only thing trivializing him was when your raid started getting geared out in tier 2 equipment from the next harder raid Black Wing Lair. It wasn't open and accessible to players of all skill levels through that design. It made it so that dedicated raid teams could trivialize him.

That doesn't even get into the fact that all those classic bosses and raids had long difficult attunement chains to even get into the dungeon. Classes WoW raids were far less open and accessible than GW2's. It wasn't until cataclysm where they made normal mode a complete joke where everyone was expected to do them. And suprise, that happens to line up with the point and time when people largely stop actually giving a kitten about WoW raids. WoW's population dropped from a peak of 12 Million in WotLK and plummeted down to a low of about 1 million active players in Draenor. And easy mode raids were a huge part of it. It's extremely healthy to have content that players haven't done but want to. It's extremely healthy to have things in the game that players want but don't have. It's more important to have those things, than to have all the content all dried up and people sitting around waiting for the next patch to drop which is where WoW has been post WotLK.

That's the situation GW2 was in during LWS2. The patch would drop. Everyone would blitz through the story that provided zero challenge in an hour and were waiting around for weeks for the next patch bored and miserable because all the content was immediately exhausted.

Your post is just nonsense. Not only were raid bosses (Especially BC+WotLK era) about as hard as GW2's, they were far less accessible in every sense of the word.

he was obviously not talking about vanilla.

He mentioned "iconic" wow bosses. Nothing post WotLK is iconic.

read again.

'adapted the game mode throughout the years and ended up with something that fits with the rest of the game. By including multiple difficulty tiers '

Clearly you need an easy mode for reading comprehension because the specific post is about how WoW's gear treadmill gave it an organic easy and hard mode.

The sentence you're quoting isn't even in the specific post I'm responding to and not relevant to the topic at hand. It's from a completely different post.

you do know about timewalking dont you?

Dude. Like slow down and follow the conversational exchange before posting.

The actual discussion plays out like this.

Blaeys: WoW is seen as the gold standard of raids and it has easy mode. GW2 should have easy mode too.Me: WoW is seen as the gold standard because a decade ago it released iconic raid after iconic raid that were iconic in large part because of their difficulty.Blaeys: Those bosses had an organic built in difficulty curve because of how gear works in that game.Me: That's not how the gear treadmill works.

You: TIMEWALKING

It's also really funny how everyone here keeps bringing up WoW's raids when the number of people playing on the most popular private servers dedicated to faithfully recreating the vanilla WoW experience dwarfs the current number for the live game. Even after all the accessiblity and easy mode raids, far more people are going way out of their way to play the inaccessible version. I'm guessing you slept through all the Nostalrius controversy last year when millions of current and ex-WoW players were begging Blizzard to release legitimate legacy Vanilla WoW servers. I'm also guessing you're the type of person who is always arguing against official Blizzard operated legacy servers.

I play on a vanilla WOTLK server. lets assume he was not talking about vanilla bosses through timewalking. I was also raiding in vanilla, and the gear treadmill did indeed mean that MC and Tier 2 eventually became an AOE fest as did AQ40 at the end. Remember mc 40 pugs?

[Sykper.6583]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@yann.1946 said:

PVP is made in such a way to match you against people of the same skill so its not nessecarely harder depends entirly on who you're matched with and against

Not always the case, hence why people aren’t happy with the match making, that the professions attached to certain games as well.

I don't even want to bring in PvP as any relative comparison as I can firmly say without a doubt it is the mode with the MOST issues right now. I sort of feel for the PvP community as they get neglected most patches while at the very least the Raiding community on occasion gets something that has more or less enhanced our experience for those who actually raid.

I know Anet is trying to assist PvP with Swiss-Tourney and ATs, but those should have been done like 3 years ago. And that's just the ice on top.

[STIHL.2489]

@nia.4725 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:

@nia.4725 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@STIHL.2489 said:You can't paint was not there to start with.

As many others pointed out on this very topic, the entitled toxic elitist where here long before Anet put in raids. They were also the ones that kept asking for raids.

Sry, with that statement you are disqualifying yourself from the discussion once again. A lot of players that were asking for more challenging content are friendly people, helping others in the game, leading guilds and made very good suggestions and a lot of bug reports that improved the game.They just wanted to have a bit of challenge in the game and not only brainless open world bosses/events you can handle with pressing one button.

And nobody has a problem with those people, or wants to take anything away from them. The existing raids should stay 100% intact.

The

toxic

players are the ones who demand that the existing version of the raids be the

only

version available to

anyone,

that an easy mode cannot be provided, or that if it is, it must be hobbled so that it fails to serve many of the functions players require of it.

I was going to link a gif of Britney Spear's 'Toxic' song here, but I'm too sleepy and I don't want to google it.

You think we're toxic, we think you're the toxic one because you demand to have your desired shinies in your desired game mode, in your desired level of difficulty. Yeah bringing raids to more people experiencing the content letting people choose blablabla but in the end you just want the Envoy and won't settle for less.

Yes.. How evil of him to want to open the game up to more players.. truly the epitome of being toxic is wanting an inclusive game.

We have been over this subject matter already, care to try and new venture or are you all out of new ideas?

and just for you.. here is Carson from the Avengers.. doing Toxic.

You said it yesterday. We are ALL broken records. If Ohoni keeps saying the same again and again and again, he receives the same again and again and again.

Have you ever stopped to ponder Ohoni says the same things, because you all are saying the same things? I mean really, how unique a response can you give to the same retort you have heard a dozen times already, each time by someone that thinks they are being so original, when.. they are not.

This is a discussion.. not a scripted encounter,.. but this does show why people who wanted

challenge

couldn't move on to PvP which requires fluid response, as opposed to doing the same thing.. time and time and time again.

We can flip your sentence. Have you ever stopped to ponder I say the same things, because Ohoni is saying the same things?

Of course we can.. But I at least know and understand why he continues to do this.

You on the other hand.. not so much.

But anyway, I've been here giving ideas to improve raids, I've even discussed some ideas about easy mode and the rewards it should give (but you didn't see it because you were banned at the time), I've been discussing some alternative ideas like a "wing 0" or a training mode... I'm not just saying the same all the time, but what I don't and won't, absolutely, never buy is an easy mode that gives all the shinies that normal raids have. And it seems that this is the only thing that Ohoni will accept.

Please do not confuse my taking a self imposed break from this inane babble with being banned.

Yes I read your idea, and not being rude or trying to hurt your feelings here, but (and I might be wrong,) this has already been explained why a Wing 0 if a futile idea.

TLDR: It's not any better then what we have in things like Escort. It won't help simply to be able to do some stupid easy unrelated 10 person content that offers unrelated rewards as well, just as doing story mode didn't help anyone with learning how to do explorer mode for Dungeons.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Sykper.6583 said:I see the ban negatively impacting both sides, obviously the raid-sellers would be upset for a multitude of reasons, however I'm certain there would be some community workarounds for the ban. Nothing like adding a black market for raid-selling lol.

Anet seems to have a pretty good track record so far for mass banning people who try to skirt rules that they decide to not put up with.

The other impact is for the players or raiders stuck in the middle, leaning more towards the easy-mode side. These players likely have a slew of reasons why they can't complete a particular encounter or encounters, from time, difficulty, etc. However what they do have instead is a lot of gold laying around that they don't need for anything else, and Dhuum is within buying distance and is required to kill once to get that ring item. They certainly aren't bad players as they've cleared wings 4, 2 and almost killed Sabetha once, but they just have bad luck with their groups.

I don't see this as a problem that an easy mode could not solve better. Raid-selling has never been an actual solution to the problem of raid inaccessibility.

@"nia.4725" said:But anyway, I've been here giving ideas to improve raids, I've even discussed some ideas about easy mode and the rewards it should give (but you didn't see it because you were banned at the time), I've been discussing some alternative ideas like a "wing 0" or a training mode... I'm not just saying the same all the time, but what I don't and won't, absolutely, never buy is an easy mode that gives all the shinies that normal raids have. And it seems that this is the only thing that Ohoni will accept.

And I've given and discussed plenty of ideas as to specific implementation in the past, but as I made clear early and often, my two primary goals, ones which I will not abandon, are 1. To be able to play through the environments and encounters of the existing raids at a lower risk of failure, and 2. to have a path to Envoy armor that does not involve participating in raids of the existing difficulty.

Any proposal that does not adequately address both of those points is insufficient to the task. Although I could accept it as a step in the right direction, I would continue to pressure for a more complete solution.

[SteepledHat.1345]

I just don't wanna have to give up my evenings every night to find a raid guild. You don't have to do that in WoW or FFXIV. I also don't understand these arbitrary barriers the community places on the content. It seems as if the raid content in other games has a higher learning curve, yet, those players don't feel the need to partition the community into learning groups and clears. It's unnecessary and limits the potential playerbase.

[STIHL.2489]

@SteepledHat.1345 said:I just don't wanna have to give up my evenings every night to find a raid guild. You don't have to do that in WoW or FFXIV. I also don't understand these arbitrary barriers the community places on the content. It seems as if the raid content in other games has a higher learning curve, yet, those players don't feel the need to partition the community into learning groups and clears. It's unnecessary and limits the potential playerbase.

I have to agree.. GW2 has a great community, in fact the best community that I have ever seen, until you get to like T4 fractals and Raids then it's just warps into the abject opposite direction of the most toxic people I have ever witnessed.

[Tyson.5160]

@Sykper.6583 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@yann.1946 said:

PVP is made in such a way to match you against people of the same skill so its not nessecarely harder depends entirly on who you're matched with and against

Not always the case, hence why people aren’t happy with the match making, that the professions attached to certain games as well.

I don't even want to bring in PvP as any relative comparison as I can firmly say without a doubt it is the mode with the MOST issues right now. I sort of feel for the PvP community as they get neglected most patches while at the very least the Raiding community on occasion gets something that has more or less enhanced our experience for those who actually raid.

I know Anet is trying to assist PvP with Swiss-Tourney and ATs, but those should have been done like 3 years ago. And that's just the ice on top.

They will adding a new tier of Glorious Armor

[Feanor.2358]

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:I see the ban negatively impacting both sides, obviously the raid-sellers would be upset for a multitude of reasons, however I'm certain there would be some community workarounds for the ban. Nothing like adding a black market for raid-selling lol.

Anet seems to have a pretty good track record so far for mass banning people who try to skirt rules that they decide to not put up with.

The other impact is for the players or raiders stuck in the middle, leaning more towards the easy-mode side. These players likely have a slew of reasons why they can't complete a particular encounter or encounters, from time, difficulty, etc. However what they do have instead is a lot of gold laying around that they don't need for anything else, and Dhuum is within buying distance and is required to kill once to get that ring item. They certainly aren't bad players as they've cleared wings 4, 2 and almost killed Sabetha once, but they just have bad luck with their groups.

I don't see this as a problem that an easy mode could not solve better. Raid-selling has never been an actual solution to the problem of raid inaccessibility.

@"nia.4725" said:But anyway, I've been here giving ideas to improve raids, I've even discussed some ideas about easy mode and the rewards it should give (but you didn't see it because you were banned at the time), I've been discussing some alternative ideas like a "wing 0" or a training mode... I'm not just saying the same all the time, but what I don't and won't, absolutely, never buy is an easy mode that gives all the shinies that normal raids have. And it seems that this is the only thing that Ohoni will accept.

And I've given and discussed plenty of ideas as to specific implementation in the past, but as I made clear early and often, my two primary goals, ones which I will not abandon, are 1. To be able to play through the environments and encounters of the existing raids at a lower risk of failure, and 2. to have a path to Envoy armor that does not involve participating in raids of the existing difficulty.

Any proposal that does not adequately address both of those points is insufficient to the task. Although I could accept it as a step in the right direction, I would continue to pressure for a more complete solution.

And any proposal that insists on these two will never happen. Like I've repeatedly said, it is unrealistic because it is unfair. Now can we close the topic?

[Tyson.5160]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:I see the ban negatively impacting both sides, obviously the raid-sellers would be upset for a multitude of reasons, however I'm certain there would be some community workarounds for the ban. Nothing like adding a black market for raid-selling lol.

Anet seems to have a pretty good track record so far for mass banning people who try to skirt rules that they decide to not put up with.

The other impact is for the players or raiders stuck in the middle, leaning more towards the easy-mode side. These players likely have a slew of reasons why they can't complete a particular encounter or encounters, from time, difficulty, etc. However what they do have instead is a lot of gold laying around that they don't need for anything else, and Dhuum is within buying distance and is required to kill once to get that ring item. They certainly aren't bad players as they've cleared wings 4, 2 and almost killed Sabetha once, but they just have bad luck with their groups.

I don't see this as a problem that an easy mode could not solve better. Raid-selling has never been an actual solution to the problem of raid inaccessibility.

@"nia.4725" said:But anyway, I've been here giving ideas to improve raids, I've even discussed some ideas about easy mode and the rewards it should give (but you didn't see it because you were banned at the time), I've been discussing some alternative ideas like a "wing 0" or a training mode... I'm not just saying the same all the time, but what I don't and won't, absolutely, never buy is an easy mode that gives all the shinies that normal raids have. And it seems that this is the only thing that Ohoni will accept.

And I've given and discussed plenty of ideas as to specific implementation in the past, but as I made clear early and often, my two primary goals, ones which I will not abandon, are 1. To be able to play through the environments and encounters of the existing raids at a lower risk of failure, and 2. to have a path to Envoy armor that does not involve participating in raids of the existing difficulty.

Any proposal that does not adequately address both of those points is insufficient to the task. Although I could accept it as a step in the right direction, I would continue to pressure for a more complete solution.

And any proposal that insists on these two will never happen. Like I've repeatedly said, it is unrealistic because it is unfair. Now can we close the topic?

I guess it closes when people stop responding.

[Ohoni.6057]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Ohoni.6057 said:

@Sykper.6583 said:I see the ban negatively impacting both sides, obviously the raid-sellers would be upset for a multitude of reasons, however I'm certain there would be some community workarounds for the ban. Nothing like adding a black market for raid-selling lol.

Anet seems to have a pretty good track record so far for mass banning people who try to skirt rules that they decide to not put up with.

The other impact is for the players or raiders stuck in the middle, leaning more towards the easy-mode side. These players likely have a slew of reasons why they can't complete a particular encounter or encounters, from time, difficulty, etc. However what they do have instead is a lot of gold laying around that they don't need for anything else, and Dhuum is within buying distance and is required to kill once to get that ring item. They certainly aren't bad players as they've cleared wings 4, 2 and almost killed Sabetha once, but they just have bad luck with their groups.

I don't see this as a problem that an easy mode could not solve better. Raid-selling has never been an actual solution to the problem of raid inaccessibility.

@"nia.4725" said:But anyway, I've been here giving ideas to improve raids, I've even discussed some ideas about easy mode and the rewards it should give (but you didn't see it because you were banned at the time), I've been discussing some alternative ideas like a "wing 0" or a training mode... I'm not just saying the same all the time, but what I don't and won't, absolutely, never buy is an easy mode that gives all the shinies that normal raids have. And it seems that this is the only thing that Ohoni will accept.

And I've given and discussed plenty of ideas as to specific implementation in the past, but as I made clear early and often, my two primary goals, ones which I will not abandon, are 1. To be able to play through the environments and encounters of the existing raids at a lower risk of failure, and 2. to have a path to Envoy armor that does not involve participating in raids of the existing difficulty.

Any proposal that does not adequately address both of those points is insufficient to the task. Although I could accept it as a step in the right direction, I would continue to pressure for a more complete solution.

And any proposal that insists on these two will never happen. Like I've repeatedly said, it is unrealistic because it is unfair. Now can we close the topic?

You saying something does not make it true. It's in no way "unfair" to anyone. I'll give you another example, I'm playing this game "Marvel Future Fight." In it, they have "uniforms" that are essentially like GW2 Outfits with stat bonuses and move changes attached, both fun and useful. Traditionally they sell in their gem store for around $10 or so, but like in GW2 you can save up in-game and buy them using freebie resources, which would take a few weeks of saving each.

Plenty of people have bought plenty of these items, but recently, they took about 14 of those uniforms (all of them at least a year, year and a half old) and made them available using the "gold" currency instead. In GW2 equivalent it would be like if they allowed you to buy an 800 gem gemstore item for around 5 gold instead, give or take. Was that "unfair" to everyone that had bought them for the original prices, or was it just a good deal for other players, since they could now pick them up easier, and the people who already had them had already gotten plenty of use for them in the meantime?

Putting an item on sale is not unfair to people who payed full price, this is just how everything has always worked.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:And any proposal that insists on these two will never happen. Like I've repeatedly said, it is unrealistic because it is unfair. Now can we close the topic?

I guess it closes when people stop responding.

My guess as well. I had a discussion with him one or some years ago - can't remember exactly - but it only stopped when I was not answering any longer.