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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


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@runeblade.7514 said:

However, no matter how much I play T4 fractals, I don't learn about raid mechanics ever. That is what easy mode raids are for.

well that is strange because the mechanics are almost the same. Generally speaking you have 1. stay in the thing 2. don't stay in the thing 3. stack with other person/people 4. stay away from other person/people

if you can do these 4 which exist in fractals also, you are pretty much good to go and can learn the encounter specific mechanics as you go along. I don't think anyone will expect more from you if they know you are new

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This is a heated topic, but let's have a serious discussion about it. Raids are not profitable for ArenaNet Let me say this clearly: I do raid, and I love challenging content, but I have many friends

Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

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@Xantaria.8726 said:

The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.w1Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

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@runeblade.7514 said:Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

Dungeons will give you more or less the exact same experience as raiding with none of the difficulty.

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@runeblade.7514 said:Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

I call nonsense.

It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

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@runeblade.7514 said:

The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.w1Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I always look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like this particular form of fun - challenging group content. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

Exactly the same holds true for raids.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.w1Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I
always
look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like
this particular form of fun
-
challenging group content
. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

Exactly the same holds true for raids.

This.

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It has been years (2012-2013, possibly 2014) since the Fractal tier design actually worked as intended - as a proper ways of progression.People either jump into the high tiers instantly given the current infusion/AR system or they decide to stay on T2 or T3 as that is where they belong(or they think they belong). There might be exceptions to this where people play their way up each tier and even each Fractal level but they are a tiny group. No amount of practice in T3 will fully prepare you for T4 and neither will any amount of practice in T4s fully prepare you for CMs if that is simply not where you belong. Neither would anyone already in T4 and CMs bother with the lower tiers upon the introduction of a new Fractal.

@runeblade.7514 said:Th> @mortrialus.3062 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

What nonsense. That's like saying they need to introduce a hardcore Open World Boss along the lines of a 50 men Dhuum CM to please those like us who have been waiting for something like that since release. There is a reason why there are different modes for different groups of players. PvP is for PvP players, Open World PvE is for the casuals and Competitive PvE is for those into challenging group content.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.w1Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I
always
look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like
this particular form of fun
-
challenging group content
. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

Exactly the same holds true for raids.

Can only agree.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.Tell that to the raiders that have been recently clamoring for making personal story fights more challenging.

If by "raiders wanting to make personal story fights more challenging" you mean that thread on the general forum then you didn't really understand the topic. That thread is about removing "death rushing" which is a tactic that isn't liked even by those who dislike challenge in this game. Otherwise they wouldn't be complaining (in other threads) that it is "too hard" to beat those story instances when it's literally impossible to fail them. You shouldn't really mix the two, they aren't at all similar

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.Tell that to the raiders that have been recently clamoring for making personal story fights more challenging.

And to those people I would say:"wrong content to make challenging."

The personal story should be manageable by a vast majority of people so everyone can experience the story imo.

Two wrongs to not make a right though so arguing that people want idiotic changes in one game mode doesn't justify asking for different nonsense in a different one.

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I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

I call nonsense.

It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

I am interested in experiencing raids. I am just not interested in getting into the headache of getting kicked from raid leaders for not having enough LI and finding out there are no raid training that will ever be scheduled when I am online. With easy mode, getting into raids will be easy as making a group and getting people of my skill level to join.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.Tell that to the raiders that have been recently clamoring for making personal story fights more challenging.

And to those people I would say:"wrong content to make challenging."

The personal story should be manageable by a vast majority of people so everyone can experience the story imo.

Two wrongs to not make a right though so arguing that people want idiotic changes in one game mode doesn't justify asking for different nonsense in a different one.

Frankly, I would be happy if ANet does have challenging personal storyline mode over raids because I don't need to find 9 other people who demands that I be the same skill level as them. All I need to do is get in and get my feet wet. Dark Souls never had to balanced their game for 10 people.

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@Henry.5713 said:It has been years (2012-2013, possibly 2014) since the Fractal tier design actually worked as intended - as a proper ways of progression.People either jump into the high tiers instantly given the current infusion/AR system or they decide to stay on T2 or T3 as that is where they belong(or they think they belong). There might be exceptions to this where people play their way up each tier and even each Fractal level but they are a tiny group. No amount of practice in T3 will fully prepare you for T4 and neither will any amount of practice in T4s fully prepare you for CMs if that is simply not where you belong. Neither would anyone already in T4 and CMs bother with the lower tiers upon the introduction of a new Fractal.

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

What nonsense. That's like saying they need to introduce a hardcore Open World Boss along the lines of a 50 men Dhuum CM to please those like us who have been waiting for something like that since release. There is a reason why there are different modes for different groups of players. PvP is for PvP players, Open World PvE is for the casuals and Competitive PvE is for those into challenging group content.

I would be okay with some open world bosses that is hard mode over having only hard mode raids because I don't need to find 9 people demanding that I have the same skill level as them or find a Teq training group. I just need to taxi in to that instance to play that open world world. The group may or may not fail, but the commander can never kick me out of their map.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

Dungeons will give you more or less the exact same experience as raiding with none of the difficulty.

Tell me how CM explorable show me the story of Saul or the environment of Raids of Chain that the artwork team designed.

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@Feanor.2358 said:

The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.w1Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I
always
look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like
this particular form of fun
-
challenging group content
. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

Exactly the same holds true for raids.

Fractals is designed so that T4 players had to play T1-T2-T3 in order to get to T4, no matter how much they spent money on Agony infusion and Ascended Gear. So they had to experience all the lower tiers multiple times. So I am very skeptical of people trying to say T4 players don't know how Fractals work. I really doubt that the "vast" majority of bad fractal players that you guys exist and, the claim that the very same bad players just want to get into T4 for "a challenging experience" is just so nonsensical, I can't figure out how you actually believe that.

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@runeblade.7514 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

I call nonsense.

It's fine if you are in favor of an easy mode but don't bring this kitten argument here.

Lack of content has been an issue in the past in all areas of the game. It's always been very damaging. Adding debatable difficulties and thus prolonging the developement time for a niche game mode which is already on the brink of no content because YOU think it's worth it is plain idiotic.

It's a poor argument and if you were in any way interested in this game mode not one you would make.

There is easier and less demanding instanced content in the game. Play that instead of wishing harm to a game mode which is very obviously not for you.

I am interested in experiencing raids. I am just not interested in getting into the headache of getting kicked from raid leaders for not having enough LI and finding out there are no raid training that will ever be scheduled when I am online. With easy mode, getting into raids will be easy as making a group and getting people of my skill level to join.

You assume easy mode will make raids so easy that there will be no barrier of entry, or enough players to play them (definitely not if rewards are scaled down), or that people would be more forgiving with mistakes and that this kind of easy mode would actually prepare you for "real raids".

Very likely not.

You are literally asking for development resources to go towards:

  • a mode which is easy enough to allow people to not care about any type of skill or preparation
  • but difficult enough to actually prepare you for "the real thing"
  • with sufficient rewards that people will actually play it
  • which somehow does a better job at preparing people over regular training raids
  • to experience story content which is barely tacked on as is (watch a wooden potatoes video on the raid wings. You'll learn 100x more about the story then if you ever played through them yourself)

and you are wondering why people are against this? It just doesn't work. Even traditional MMOs who have easy mode raids which are so dumbed down and function as basically free loot generators to feeds people addiction with colorful items (looking at you WoW) don't have people train on them to experience the fights. They exist only to gear people up in those thread mills to meet the item requirements for raids. Something which does not exist in GW2.

What you are looking for is a guild with members and people you can befriend who would allow for exactly such interaction which you are asking for and guess what, that's what most raiders are in or were in at some point in time. This has no requirement for an easy mode.

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@runeblade.7514 said:

@runeblade.7514 said:I remember raiders saying that they don't want easy mode difficulty because Raids will take longer to release.

How is that new raid going so far?

Okay. And It's a literally fact that despite the new raid taking too long, adding easy mode would make it take even longer.

If it takes that, then I am all for it. I've been waiting years for raids that I can play. You guys merely waited for months for a new wing.

Dungeons will give you more or less the exact same experience as raiding with none of the difficulty.

Tell me how CM explorable show me the story of Saul or the environment of Raids of Chain that the artwork team designed.

It'll give you the experience of being able to effortlessly clear content without any regards to things like challenge, or difficulty, or risk, or failure.

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@Lonami.2987 said:Well, WildStar is officially closing down. Hardcore-only raids being one of the main reasons it flopped spectacularly.

Meanwhile, GW2 is getting about 1 raid a year. How long until we get no more raids whatsoever, hm?

Yeah. It's not like GW2 isn't the most stable or profitable it's been in years.

Everyone is frustrated the new raid took so long. It has no bearing on whether easy mode raids are healthy for the game. You have to be extremely daft to think easy mode raids wouldn't end up slowing down production because you're literally adding a copy of the raid to be balanced and QA tested alongside the original version.

Good MMORPG's are like amusement parks. They have a wide variety of attractions each with a specific appeal. You have the tea cups, the Ferris wheel, the haunted house. Various games. and food. And of course you have more extreme rides like Roller Coasters and Drop Towers. Not everyone likes the Roller Coasters and Drop Towers. They're too extreme for a lot of people. But that's fine because there's all this other stuff in the park for them as well.

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@Xerxes.2468 said:I've always been of the opinion that no game needs a tier of content that only the hardcore element gets to see. This is important to this game since it decided not to continue to add dungeon content. I feel like fractals are ok but an imperfect solution to 5 man content at best. Varied difficulties with more/better rewards as you go up are fine.

Your opinion is easy to refute. There are players who seek hardcore challenge, therefore failing to provide that means you lose these players. There are many games for which that's fine. ANet, however, have decided GW2 won't be one of these. And if anything, fractals are a solid example how tiered difficulties fail.

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@runeblade.7514 said:

The same way I expect a new fractal player ease into fractals. The new fractal/raiders you described will not learn anything you outlined. But they will learn to defeat the mechanic of raids/fractals at a lower difficulty or never ascend to higher difficulty.

I don't care if a T4 player doesn't know what Heartseeker is. As long as he knows how to beat the fractal, that is all that matters.w1Which most players in t4 dont. We already have threads where people report that its actual even getting worse, with many of them having no idea how the mechanics work. Which propably comes from the simple reason that you can buy yourself into t4 buy buying infusions from the tp and you can get asc gear from either crafting, collections, lw3+4 maps and wvw/pvp. Many just skip the first tiers. Unless a solution like you cant enter a higher fractal then the one your own lvl is currently i dont see any sign of change in that behavior.Completly besides the point that raids are taking to long already.

It doesn't feel T4 pugs got bad to me. Whether its true or not, That player climbed his way to t4. He bought the gear and infusion with the gold he earned. I won't deny him t4.

However, if I was in his pug, I would either kick him or leave; The same way I expect from a hard mode raid. But this time, t1-t3 is always available to him to learn at an easier difficulty if he feels t4 is too hard. Meanwhile, Fractal players won't require him to ping his 250 Pristine Fractal relics just to join but, If t4 do start to do something like that right now, then t1-t3 is there for him.

As someone who plays (and pugs) fractals daily, allow me to disagree. There's a reason I
always
look for at least 100-150 kp groups who do full runs, cms included. And the reason isn't the extra reward, it's the avoided clown fiesta. The average T4 pug is quite terrible to be honest. Yes, you can manage to clear the daily fractals this way, too, but it takes considerably longer and more often than not is more annoying than fun.

And the thing is, the existence of the lower tiers doesn't really do anything for the progression, except delay it. The players who end up playing the "t4+cm" tier don't reach there because they had the lower tiers to "prepare". Lower tiers do nothing to prepare you. Even t4 doesn't do even remotely enough to prepare you for the cms. The players who end up playing in the top tier are simply those who like
this particular form of fun
-
challenging group content
. They, too, were playing new bosses they didn't know. They, too, wiped time and again. But they had the mindset to persist and master the challenge, so they did. No amount of easier tiers will make a player who doesn't like challenging content do well in one.

Exactly the same holds true for raids.

Fractals is designed so that T4 players had to play T1-T2-T3 in order to get to T4, no matter how much they spent money on Agony infusion and Ascended Gear. So they had to experience all the lower tiers multiple times. So I am very skeptical of people trying to say T4 players don't know how Fractals work. I really doubt that the "vast" majority of bad fractal players that you guys exist and, the claim that the very same bad players just want to get into T4 for "a challenging experience" is just so nonsensical, I can't figure out how you actually believe that.

I don't have to believe anything. I know it for certain because it is my own experience. I never said the players in T4 don't know how the fractals work. They don't know how an efficient teams work. It is not the same. And the sad part is, they don't know a thing about proper teamplay because fractals never forced them to learn it. Time and again I see this - people only learn to perform as well as it is requested of them.

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Coming from world of warcraft, this is my own personal experience. I do not have time to commit to a raid schedule and always felt left out. Not other's fault but I know that I'm no where near alone in this regard. I started doing LFR and enjoyed it but I also wanted that sweet loot. I considered LFR a stepping stone to learning raids. I put in time when I could and started raiding with my guild on normal modes on Sundays. Eventually I became back up for mythic raids and earned the loot I wanted. It took longer (a lot) to get there but I wouldn't have if I didn't have LFR to get over the anxiety of learning abit about the raid and getting confident enough to try the next step up in difficulty.

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