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Do raids need easy/normal/hard difficulty mode? [merged]


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@STIHL.2489 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:No one called mount skins P2W. They were called out for being too similar to lootboxes, which have been a hot topic since Overwatch's influence exploded them into more and more games; manipulative RNG pachinko machines. Especially since the specter of spending money on the gem store wanting a specific mount skin, and walking away without wanted felt like it went against everything the gem store stood for by being so much more fair than other F2P games.

This is so wrong it;s not even funny.. Not only did they call the Mount Skins P2W, you make it seem like this game didn't have BLC in the game since the start (Which are directly loot boxes, and that is just stating the obvious), Black Lion Weapon Skins, anyone? Not to mention that a vast number of other purely cosmetic stuff in the store is also sold in RNG Loot Box Style, which have been a staple since the Start like Dye Packs, Minis, etc. So, again the ridiculousness of Mount Gate, will never be lost on me, because mount skins were just like the other existing RNG of the Store... and yes.. they called it P2W, I think I i have seen them still cal it P2W.

For some one asking others to refrain from lying often, the amount of stretching you do here to fit your agenda is insane.

Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win.

Again.. you seem to forget, that I was there, yes they were, and for quite some time after as well. Reilly showed me how worthless the like P2W had become. in fact Mount gate killed any P2W cries for me.

Pics or it didn't happen

Given @"maddoctor.2738" responses. pics don't work either.

Show me where they or anyone else calls cosmetic skins Pay to Win.

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@"Cyninja.2954" said:Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. There is/was no winning. You are intentionally mixing loot boxes and the disdain over this kind of content implementation with pay to win, when those are 2 completely different issues even if they occasionally go hand in hand.

Actually they were indeed called Pay to Win by a number of people.The argument was:"The only real endgame in Gw2 is fashion, therefore locking customization behind a paywall is P2W"It was/is a ridiculous argument to be sure but it was screamed out pretty loudly by some of the more entitled. Wooden Potatoes even addressed the point of view in his video when the whole gong show was at it's peak.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@"Cyninja.2954" said:Mount skins were absolutely NOT called pay to win. There is/was no winning. You are intentionally mixing loot boxes and the disdain over this kind of content implementation with pay to win, when those are 2 completely different issues even if they occasionally go hand in hand.

Actually they were indeed called Pay to Win by a number of people.The argument was:"The only real endgame in Gw2 is fashion, therefore locking customization behind a paywall is P2W"It was/is a ridiculous argument to be sure but it was screamed out pretty loudly by some of the more entitled. Wooden Potatoes even addressed the point of view in his video when the whole gong show was at it's peak.

Well now we would have to get into what are reasonable arguments and what is unreasonable noise. Might there have been some few who have said something utterly stupid? Sure, but was that in any way related to the main issue or problem at hand? No.

Portraying it in a way that pay to win was a big deal and drawing on peoples mistrust and dislike of loot boxes when talking about mounts is misleading when it comes to mounts.

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@yann.1946 said:

@Jamie.4130 said:Mostly I think an easy mode would be fine to bring more enjoyment to the community due to the people who either don't have time to raid, can't learn to raid, or don't have the skills to raid. I understand that bringing the elite endgame content to the majority of the player base has issues like LFR on WoW, but I don't see it as much of an issue under a few conditions. The conditions that should be met to consider doing an easy mode and hard mode is that:
  1. Hard mode has to have very lucrative and exclusive rewards that easy mode can never and will never match in order for the elite player base to still feel rewarded in doing this content
  2. Easy mode has to be challenging enough that it makes strategy important to completion, much like how raids are now but with a removal of some mechanics or bosses altogether that make it easier to complete than hard mode.
  3. Possibly introduce a new tier of gear for hard mode raids that is superior to current ascended gear sets while keeping easy mode at the current level of gearThis obviously means that some parts of the game would need to be tweaked, remade, coded differently, and that means time and money for ArenaNet. And I would honestly be fine if this feature was not introduced either way.

Point 3 would be a ridiculous bad idea. Lack of gear grind was a big motivation to try this game out

Yeah I see your point. I was just thinking that it could be a way to give hardcore raiders an incentive to raid over the more casual audience. but it could be something else. Just giving ideas

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

Nope, they're not.

Ya never know, I guess, ?

Yeah, right, but we haven't seen anything from Anet that was highly unexpected. Since the latest answer was like: "We don't have any plans about an easy mode raid.", I still doubt that easy mode raids have any (high) relevance for the dev team at the moment.

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@Tyson.5160 said:With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

For a possible story mode for Raids? No, that's like saying the open world VG or open world Slothasor were made for a similar purpose. But for giving people a taste of Raids? That's probably a good reason to add it. See what 10-man content is all about. I guess it will all depend in the success of it, how many will like/play the content. Furthermore, it's a great opportunity, at least for those asking for easier Raids, to prove that they are worth the effort. Meaning how many more players, than those actively raiding, will play/finish this content, how many non-raiders are actually interested in easier 10-man content. Time will tell I guess.

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@"Tyson.5160" said:With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

I think the new Wintersday instance does show that easy mode raids would be both popular and valid, but I - unfortunately - doubt this is the thinking at Arenanet. They have made it clear that the company is suffering from a lack of development resources (most recently illustrated by yet another delay for open world content), so raids in general have to fall down the priority list.

That said, if they ever do free up resources to do something more with raids, I think this "mini raid" offers them valuable data and information on the direction they should take. An easy mode raid would work (because it is working in game right now with this instance) and it would be something they could keep active alongside the current raid versions (with the proper resources, of course).

Now, it could have been an internal test to see how much they could realistically do in this direction with the resources they have - but, again, giving the delays with living stories, I would think they would look at others areas to improve first.

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@Blaeys.3102 said:

@"Tyson.5160" said:With the new festival mini raid with Wintersday(extremely fun) is Anet potentially using this opportunity to test the waters for a possible story mode raids? I noticed many different raid mechanics happening during the fight.

I think the new Wintersday instance does show that easy mode raids would be both popular and valid, but I - unfortunately - doubt this is the thinking at Arenanet. They have made it clear that the company is suffering from a lack of development resources (most recently illustrated by yet another delay for open world content), so raids in general have to fall down the priority list.

That said, if they ever do free up resources to do something more with raids, I think this "mini raid" offers them valuable data and information on the direction they should take. An easy mode raid would work (because it is working in game right now with this instance) and it would be something they could keep active alongside the current raid versions (with the proper resources, of course).

Now, it could have been an internal test to see how much they could realistically do in this direction with the resources they have - but, again, giving the delays with living stories, I would think they would look at others areas to improve first.

They now have data on how many people do the raid. They can now decide if it is worth to developer more easy raid content.

Given that most people I know found it fun, did it 1ince, then never touched it again, I doubt we will see a change in their approach to raid difficulty. The definition of something working is not:"People enjoyed it once and are done with it." At least not for raid content.

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Given that most people I know found it fun, did it 1ince, then never touched it again, I doubt we will see a change in their approach to raid difficulty. The definition of something working is not:"People enjoyed it once and are done with it." At least not for raid content.

Which brings us back to the original problem! (Running in circles for 106 pages, yaaaay!)

If the rewards are bad people will do the easy mode once, at best. Maybe lure in some veterans when Anet adds achievements to it.If the rewards are good/better compared to the regular raids than you end up cannibalizing those which means

no boss tokensno Legendary Insights/Divinations

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@"Grogba.6204" said:

Given that most people I know found it fun, did it 1ince, then never touched it again, I doubt we will see a change in their approach to raid difficulty. The definition of something working is not:"People enjoyed it once and are done with it." At least not for raid content.

Which brings us back to the
original
problem! (Running in circles for 106 pages, yaaaay!)

If the rewards are bad people will do the easy mode once, at best. Maybe lure in some veterans when Anet adds achievements to it.If the rewards are good/better compared to the regular raids than you end up cannibalizing those which means

no boss tokensno Legendary Insights/Divinations

Which really serves to only prove that - for a large group - repeatablility (for all parts of the game) are tied to reward rather than content. It stands to reason, then, that we should separate the discussions. If the goal is to have people repeat content, all they need to do is provide desirable rewards (which can still be tiered - as they are across the game now).

At the same time, we have to gauge the "fun" aspect of content separate from whether or not it is repeated (because, again, for many, that is tied to reward, not the actual content). And, the Wintersday 10 man instance is fun - just as a raid encounter is fun. If you build out either and want repeatability, you simply use rewards (which, again, do not have to mirror one another and can be tiered based on prestige) to accomplish that.

Once you have that combination of fun+incentive, you have a successful model that makes the game stronger. Adding tiers to the content widens the audience and justifies greater investment/integration with the story/etc - making it a win/win for everyone, including hardcore raiders (it would have justified including a more difficult version of the Wintersday fight, for example).

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And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, this was the reasonable opinion of most of the people from the pro-raid fraction during this discussion of 106 pages now. Only a few, which you can't take seriously showed a toxic behaviour and I think we all can agree that there's no need to listen to them.

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As I see it, the best solution would be the following one, provided they can manage resources to do it:

  • A new Story mode with more lenient enemy damage and no enrage timers, but greatly limited rewards, quite doable with at least 5 players. Like the Lair of the Snowmen.
  • The usual Normal mode that most raids already have.
  • Challenge Mode for every boss encounter, all with repeatable rewards that do not reset weekly, but on a longer cycle, like every 2 or 4 weeks, or when the corresponding wing has the Call of the Mists. This way there's reasons to do the CMS again and give chances to more people to do them with experienced players, but players would not be split between CM and not CM every week.Bosses with no CM that may be considered harder because they are completed particularly infrequently would move part of their difficulty to the CM version, but not too much. Only one or two of the bits that metrics indicate lead to wipes more often. Preferably by toning down the numbers on the normal version rather than removing mechanics from the normal version.
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@"Vinceman.4572" said:And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be below the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Vinceman.4572" said:And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be
below
the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a chance for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be
below
the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a
chance
for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

You can also get a mini from the Lair.

I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be
below
the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a
chance
for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

You can also get a mini from the Lair.

I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

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the magnetite/geating cap might just use the regular cap imo. Skins are pretty expensive and I guess most people use them to easily gear characters nowadays. But as Vinceman said no Insights/Divinations and I want to add no boss tokens because that opens another box better left unopened. I do not want to imagine what arbitrary item the playerbase will ask to ping next if the tokens were to drop from an easy mode.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be
below
the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a
chance
for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

And you are absolutely right.

Let's say Anet listens to the small handful of people who say "Hey we would be happy with two blues and a green for our easy mode raid kills". The vast majority of people this content would be targeted for would abandon it for lack of reward...rendering all that development time wasted.Then there would be the dozens of threads here and on reddit "Not worth doing!!" or probably "Anet hates casuals".And of course the supporters of Easy Mode raids would then start to argue that the disparity of rewards exacerbates the the division in the player base and loudly proclaim "this isn't what Guild Wars 2 is supposed to be!" "Anti grind philosophy!"..."Play how I want!".... or whatever gatekeeping meme is quotable that week.

The reality is while the core supporters of Easy Mode raids may even be honest about their loot expectations, the main target audience wouldn't be happy with anything but Tarir level rewards from Lair of the Snowmen level challenge.And what's worse?You could present a Snowmen level version of all the existing raids and you would still see significant complaints that it wasn't soloable... or that there should be a 5 man version.

I created a squad the moment I saw Snowmen was live, capped it at the first ten randoms who joined, jumped into that encounter and had one of the best times I have had with this game in months. It was effortless. There was no wipe, no stress.I still read anecdotes and sock puppet speeches about "guildies who found it too hard to finish" and multiple wipes.

Arenanet can't win here, and I doubt the target audience of this content would be happy with any solution.It's better to not spend the resources and be abandoned for lack of reward or lack of solability and just spend the time and money on other content.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be
below
the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a
chance
for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

You can also get a mini from the Lair.

I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be
below
the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a
chance
for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

You can also get a mini from the Lair.

I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

Don't forget you can trade in you minis for more shards.

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@sigur.9453 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:And that's the reason why most of the raiders have nothing against an easy mode if the rewards are very well balanced.Actually, the ones that do speak up about it usually want the rewards to be
below
the incentive level. The term "few greens at best" has been used more than once. "no rewards" was used even more often. I do not remember even a single raider that actually wanted decent rewards for the mode. I do remember however people saying that easy mode would not deserve such.

What you describe is the disparity between both sides. Since I've read enough raiders here in this thread that are open-minded to liquid gold reward of 50s, rares and exotics and some also mentioned minis + shards in addition it's the anti-raid fraction that feels this is not enough. So, where to draw the line? If you give easy mode people access to legendary armor & ring people wouldn't run normal mode in the slightest. I'm sorry here but that's why a reasonable approach has to deny that.

Personally I think it's enough if people get champ bags + some shards + a possibility for minis. Just compare it to other "casual" stuff, the rewards aren't better there so no easy mode raider should be entitled to demand something completely out of rationality. The actual example with the Lair of the Snowmen clearly shows it: You have a guarantee for wintersday gifts plus a
chance
for an exotic weapon but you can also get a rare (2 rares out of 3 daily runs for me).

So in comparison, my approach is pretty generous but I tell you this won't be enough for the "loot army" which will appear in 3...2...1...

You can also get a mini from the Lair.

I think if the easy mode gave a cap in 75 shards half of what normal mode that in my opinion is good incentive to run the content if you want something like minis or maybe exotics of the current skins. If you want more shards in the week you would have to jump to normal.

I agree though, keep the Legendary stuff to normal mode.

That's why I included minis in my post. (And it's just reasonable since minis are also thrown out like crazy/easy to get in normal mode).And no, 75 shards per week is too much. 15-25 would be fine and just fair.

15 to 25 shards would mean you could buy something like an ascended Armor chest in like 4 months. That carrot would be too far and no one would do it.

Don't forget you can trade in you minis for more shards.

True, I forgot about that actually.

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