Nov 28 Thief Balance

[Burial.1958]

Why the nerf to scorpion wire? 😅 Who asked for that? 

[Bunny.9834]

3 hours ago, Burial.1958 said:

Why the nerf to scorpion wire? 😅 Who asked for that? 

some dev prolly kept getting pulled from his tower wall and getting ganked so he's salty. 

[Khlori.6209]

13 hours ago, DioBrando.9643 said:

Honestly, I just wanted to see some number changes.😅 In raids, daredevil underperforms a little bit; it’s actually one of few power classes whose benchmark doesn’t reach 40k… Now, I guess making staff 4 reflect is neat, but these changes feel like for PVP/WVW only; something that I can maybe use in 1v1 encounters. But if you know a bit about daredevil rotation, you’re simply not going to use staff 3 or 4; it is a dps loss after all.
Personally, I was hoping they would *tweak the numbers* just a lit bit, you know, make auto attack, or staff 2, or fist furry damage numbers just 2-3% higher, and I think daredevil would be in a good, not underperforming state any more for PVE content!

Will just casually bring up Vindicator's Leviathan Strength vs Daredevil's Havoc Specialist 

Same damage modifier when endurance just "not full" vs completely depleted (Vindi doesn't have just 1 dodge anymore). First on tier 1 trait, second on tier 2.

Will not question why both boost only strike damage.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Khlori.6209

[Geriatrics.5823]

On 11/2/2023 at 5:52 AM, Geriatrics.5823 said:

Between the Dust Strike cone nerf, the auto attack nerf, and a telegraphed 8 initiative leap, I don't understand what they were thinking if those are actually intended as "improvements". Dust Strike's fast poke carries staff against actually decent opponents that know how to abuse the animation locking and expensive initiative costs of other defensive staff skills, and nerfing the range on that skill is devastating to those matchups because you want the blind/weakness application before you're trading in melee range. Auto attack reflects, while difficult to use effectively, at least offered some protection to staff that didn't rely on initiative, and I don't think having reflect on demand is worth that trade off. Helmet Breaker, on top of being insanely expensive in terms of initiative, completely opens you up to counter pressure from any sources of blind/aegis/stability in the game.

I want to huff the copium, but these changes seem more harmful than helpful as a longtime staff player.

Back after playing the changes to beg Anet to revert the Dust Strike and Punishing Strike changes.

Staff doesn't have ports, doesn't have stealth, doesn't have range (anymore), so it needs efficient defensive options. Instead, they removed the best ones it had left for a worse version of both. I don't get it.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Geriatrics.5823

[MrAmputatoes.6031]

I hate the new Dust Strike.

As someone who plays almost exclusively PvP and WvW. Its unreliable and took away one of staffs best skills for closing the distance, poking, kiting ect. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by MrAmputatoes.6031

[Doggie.3184]

3 hours ago, Geriatrics.5823 said:

Back after playing the changes to beg Anet to revert the Dust Strike and Punishing Strike changes.

Staff doesn't have ports, doesn't have stealth, doesn't have range (anymore), so it needs efficient defensive options. Instead, they removed the best ones it had left for a worse version of both. I don't get it.

That's a Daredevil Problem more than a Staff Problem. They need to make the unique dodges part of their core spec mechanic like Revenant's dodge, and just add a new F skill that swaps between types. Then we got three new trait slots for things Daredevil desperately needs to function properly, like Stability, cuz currently it's 100% useless in zergs due to instantly being CC'd and exploded since all the nerfs to evasion. 

We also have another trait slot that's been dead for several years after nerfs that can be filled with something useful; Impacting Disruption

[itspomf.9523]

3 hours ago, Geriatrics.5823 said:

Back after playing the changes to beg Anet to revert the Dust Strike and Punishing Strike changes.

Staff doesn't have ports, doesn't have stealth, doesn't have range (anymore), so it needs efficient defensive options. Instead, they removed the best ones it had left for a worse version of both. I don't get it.

38 minutes ago, MrAmputatoes.6031 said:

I hate the new Dust Strike.

As someone who plays almost exclusively PvP and WvW. Its unreliable and took away one of staffs best skills for closing the distance, poking, kiting ect. 

Agreed.  Played around with it in open world yesterday to see how the new reflect works, and I landed it once out of a good dozen attempts.  The wind-up is too long, the timing is too indistinct, and you have to essentially start the skill as your enemy fires for it to actually work -- I say this because the only projectile I reflected was done entirely on accident.

Overall thoughts and recommendations to the balance team:

1. Remove Helmet Breaker, as it's not helping:  the current interaction of Debilitating Arc (staff 3) into Helmet Breaker feels bad; it's too clunky and awkward, and we already have a bunch of gap-closers (Bound, Weakening Charge, [old] Dust Srike, Bounding Dodger, and shadowstep utiltiies).  Moreover, locking out Debilitating arc for a period of time means your built-in escape is now shut down, overall weakening the weapon's versatility and survival margin.
2. Revert and upgrade Dust Strike to handle Defiance:  I would much rather see the Daze added to the original Dust Strike (staff 4), such that "enemies within the range threshold are instead Dazed for 2 seconds," and set that to about one-half its range (so 240~300u), as this would give staff a much-needed method of handling Defiance whilst retaining its ability to inflict blinds and tag enemies from afar.
3. But seriously, revert the changes to Dust Strike:  the new Dust Strike is honestly awful, too long, and way too hard to land the reflect.  Being rooted in place has caused me more problems than it has solved.  I'd rather it be reverted and a short Block or Evade added to staff's auto-attack's third hit, Punishing Strikes, to make the brawling feel of staff more ... well, brawler-y.  After all, Ranger's greatsword had this until late 2019, when its third hit became Enduring Swing.
   
   And if not, then at least make Dust Strike a radial sweep to inflict a brief area of pulsing blind and allow staff the ability to self-combo.

While this last little addendum is my own personal opinion, this and other recent changes feel to have been made outside of the spirit and purpose of the weapons to which they've been applied.  They legitimately don't feel like they address what they're set out to do.

Edited November 29, 2023 by itspomf.9523
additional clarification

[Doggie.3184]

36 minutes ago, itspomf.9523 said:

Agreed.  Played around with it in open world yesterday to see how the new reflect works, and I landed it once out of a good dozen attempts.  The wind-up is too long, the timing is too indistinct, and you have to essentially start the skill as your enemy fires for it to actually work -- I say this because the only projectile I reflected was done entirely on accident.

Overall thoughts and recommendations to the balance team:

1. Remove Helmet Breaker, as it's not helping:  the current interaction of Debilitating Arc (staff 3) into Helmet Breaker feels bad; it's too clunky and awkward, and we already have a bunch of gap-closers (Bound, Weakening Charge, [old] Dust Srike, Bounding Dodger, and shadowstep utiltiies).  Moreover, locking out Debilitating arc for a period of time means your built-in escape is now shut down, overall weakening the weapon's versatility and survival margin.
2. Revert and upgrade Dust Strike to handle Defiance:  I would much rather see the Daze added to the original Dust Strike (staff 4), such that "enemies within the range threshold are instead Dazed for 2 seconds," and set that to about one-half its range (so 240~300u), as this would give staff a much-needed method of handling Defiance whilst retaining its ability to inflict blinds and tag enemies from afar.
3. But seriously, revert the changes to Dust Strike:  the new Dust Strike is honestly awful, too long, and way too hard to land the reflect.  Being rooted in place has caused me more problems than it has solved.  I'd rather it be reverted and a short Block or Evade added to staff's auto-attack's third hit, Punishing Strikes, to make the brawling feel of staff more ... well, brawler-y.  After all, Ranger's greatsword had this until late 2019, when its third hit became Enduring Swing.
   
   And if not, then at least make Dust Strike a radial sweep to inflict a brief area of pulsing blind and allow staff the ability to self-combo.

While this last little addendum is my own personal opinion, this and other recent changes feel to have been made outside of the spirit and purpose of the weapons to which they've been applied.  They legitimately don't feel like they address what they're set out to do.

Helmet Breaker is way more useful than Arc. They could actually just delete Arc and make Vault remove immobalize which would be a superior spot for it's only useful aspect but as long as ini isn't terrible it's whatever. Could even toss the cripple onto another skill but not sure anyone ever cared about that in Arc either. Who cares how many gap closers we have, it's meant to be a weapon for what's supposed to be the fastest melee spec for people who want the GW1 Assassin playstyle. Assassin was pure speed brawler with no stealth.

Dust Strike's only real flaw is it's AoE radius isn't big enough to make up for the range loss. It doesn't lock you in place, you can move however you want during it. Staff 2 actually needs upgrades to be like Dust Strike and let me move while it's spinning. The reflect has actually been a bit odd in a good way so far, need further testing in WvW, but I've seen things bounce off me at all various points of the animation, even after it ends. 

I wouldn't say no to an AA evade but Ranger GS made it clear they're against that being a thing anymore. The Pulsing (damage) field thingy was already on my wishlist and Stability focused XD but I intentionally wanted it to be anti-stealth, no smoke combo fields. I want to play without the crutch of stealth again like back before they stomped sword, dual pistol and evasion builds into the dirt. Further improvements for this weapon's playstyle need to be done within Daredevil's traitlines and mechanics. 

[Doul.9314]

I LOVE both skills. The new Arc/Helmet Breaker and Dust Striker now doing all sense. 

I'm having a lot of fun with these changes. I waited many years for them to change exactly these two abilities. I barely used them, they were just there for decoration.

[Eugenides.1274]

Thoughts on things after playing on the new patch...

> Staff changes

• RIP reflect on Punishing Strikes. You will be missed.
• I also miss having the ranged damage/blind from old Dust Strike. The ranged blind/poke was actually pretty useful in competitive game modes.
• New Dust Strike reflect has potential but after using it in competitive for a bit it's unreliable. Maybe if they increased the reflect time or gave the caster a short lingering buff that reflected projectiles it would feel better?
• Helmet Breaker is fun but not really worth it. It requires using Debilitating Arc which wasn't changed at all so I don't see myself using it much. Using Debilitating Arc in a fight will often just put you in a scenario where you'll get punished if you use it (this might just be a l2p issue though since I don't use staff as much as other weapon sets).
• There's no sound effect for the Helmet Breaker leap which is kind of weird. There's only a sound effect on the actual hit. Tested on human male so not sure if it's any different on different race combinations.

> Impact Strike

• This change doesn't really make me want to run Impact Strike over Dagger Storm or Basilisk Venom in competitive.
• After the patch preview I've been running this for a while to get a better idea of how it feels after the change. Overall, the biggest issue with this skill is that it's incredibly unreliable and feels super clunky to use in an actual fight. Slapping an evade on the skill doesn't address that in any way.
• For instance, it feels like quickness/slow make the animations bug out (your character's arms just kind of get stuck in the air) so it's easy to accidentally cancel a cast mid fight. If the enemy gets downed by an ally or by conditions when you're mid Finishing Blow (last flip skill that finishes an opponent) the hit will miss because of the invulnerability players get when they get downed in competitive modes. Using other skills that have a cast time after hitting Impact Strike put the skill on cooldown.
• This skill feels so good when it actually works though so I would love to see them try to address the issues it has.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Eugenides.1274

[draxynnic.3719]

11 hours ago, Doggie.3184 said:

Helmet Breaker is way more useful than Arc. They could actually just delete Arc and make Vault remove immobalize which would be a superior spot for it's only useful aspect but as long as ini isn't terrible it's whatever. Could even toss the cripple onto another skill but not sure anyone ever cared about that in Arc either. Who cares how many gap closers we have, it's meant to be a weapon for what's supposed to be the fastest melee spec for people who want the GW1 Assassin playstyle. Assassin was pure speed brawler with no stealth.

Dust Strike's only real flaw is it's AoE radius isn't big enough to make up for the range loss. It doesn't lock you in place, you can move however you want during it. Staff 2 actually needs upgrades to be like Dust Strike and let me move while it's spinning. The reflect has actually been a bit odd in a good way so far, need further testing in WvW, but I've seen things bounce off me at all various points of the animation, even after it ends. 

I wouldn't say no to an AA evade but Ranger GS made it clear they're against that being a thing anymore. The Pulsing (damage) field thingy was already on my wishlist and Stability focused XD but I intentionally wanted it to be anti-stealth, no smoke combo fields. I want to play without the crutch of stealth again like back before they stomped sword, dual pistol and evasion builds into the dirt. Further improvements for this weapon's playstyle need to be done within Daredevil's traitlines and mechanics. 

I tend to use Arc as a complement to Bound - it sends you back just enough to be able to Bound back in. Can also use it as a substitute for dodge so you don't waste Bound dodging away from the target.

Edited November 30, 2023 by draxynnic.3719

[godofcows.2451]

I will have to agree and second all the hate with the staff changes. Before we get to that though, let me just say...that unfortunately I feel as if axe too is really uninspired. Lol. Uhm...I'll just leave it to whatever future it may hold. If we're basing it on whatever the current beta has, i'll pass. 

Anyway, the new staff 4...One can make it work. It has a room in the gameplay. But considering it's range, I wouldn't want it replacing the old staff 4. The old dust strike just had that something special that gave the weapon set a little bit of extra oomph. It's the range. Safe range is something this weapon is so deprived on. You can't get that on vault which forces you within melee range of the enemy immediately. It was that ranged poke with blind with an actual decent damage that carried a little bit of tactical mitigation about it. And it worked. Don't get me wrong, if you find the ideal situation for the new one, it is really good. I just wished it had more range if we can't get the old one back. 

For staff 3, It can work but it is a little bit clunky for something that eats so much ini. Too clunky at times actually if you're up against a decent player. It'll miss a lot on a moving player. If we're going to compare it s/d 3 which runs comparable mechanics, larcenous just hits harder and larcenous is not exactly one of the strongest hitters in this game nor is it reliable. It misses a lot on moving enemies and here you are, recreating the same problems. I get it, you want it to be a brawler type in your face. You probably want us to use impact disruption with it. But considering helmet break doesn't even have any evades in it, at that range, stay too long and you'll be asking for something in the face instead. 

These two should not have any issues in pve. Arguably even if the hype there is on staff 3, i'm pretty sure it'll soon go to staff 4 and auto attack spam perma blind. What's in question is how effective are they against a player and I do believe there are a lot of things to be worked on. I'm unsure why you made the changes in the first place but here we are. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by godofcows.2451