Change skill2 Immobilize to Cripple on S/D thief

witcher.3197 · September 17, 2017

Condi S/D thief became viable after Anet buffed Panic Strikes to apply poison on immob, a buff probably intended for P/D thief which also has a spammable Immobilize on skill2. Condi S/D becoming the monster of soloQ is likely an unintended side effect.

S/D recieved several buffs since then and I think it can survive some tweaking. Changing Immobilize to Cripple on Infiltrator's Strike could make Pistol mainhand more unique while not hurting power S/D too much and putting an end to a 2 button spam build (while still retaining some viability).

Crinn.7864 · September 17, 2017

The immobilize on sword2 is the crux that makes condi s/d so strong. It's not just that it procs Panic Strikes, but also that the immobilize means that the target can't get out of the caltrops field created when the thief dodges, not mention prevents them from dodging the condis applied by lotus dodge.

witcher.3197 · September 17, 2017

@Crinn.7864 said:The immobilize on sword2 is the crux that makes condi s/d so strong. It's not just that it procs Panic Strikes, but also that the immobilize means that the target can't get out of the caltrops field created when the thief dodges, not mention prevents them from dodging the condis applied by lotus dodge.

Yes, and that's what makes it a toxic 2 button spam build. The nerf would encourage the use of more skills, which could be tweaked according to how big of a blow this was to the build.The currently playstyle has to go.

Velimere.7685 · September 17, 2017

The build is fine and balanced. Ventari Rev on the other hand needs to be looked at. =)

babazhook.6805 · September 17, 2017

Any Immob break will get you out of the Caltrops field. It not hard to do. I get immobed in a trap set by a ranger. Does this mean Immob should be removed from rangers?

IMMOB always existed on s/d. Uncatchable has always been there. Impaling louus has been there since the release of HOT. Why is it only an issue now?

witcher.3197 · September 17, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:
IMMOB always existed on s/d. Uncatchable has always been there. Impaling louus has been there since the release of HOT. Why is it only an issue now?

Because it applies 2 stacks of Poison now with Deadly Arts, and nerfing the trait would gut many other options that are perfectly fine.

Crinn.7864 · September 17, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:Any Immob break will get you out of the Caltrops field. It not hard to do. I get immobed in a trap set by a ranger. Does this mean Immob should be removed from rangers?

The thief doesn't need you to sit in caltrops for the entire duration, they just need to land a tick of caltrops and a couple lotus hits. Caltrops and lotus are just for cover conditions for the poison. However due to how many cover condis s/d applies, the only way a class could have a hope of cleansing the burst is if they completely avoid caltrops and lotus.

Once you account for server latency and human reaction time, it's not possible to break the immob and dodge before taking lotus and caltrops hits.

kKagari.6804 · September 17, 2017

Yeah this one is a tricky one, i don't think it's overpowered, but i do think the way the skill works doesn't allow for reaction, the blink is pretty much instant.

They should probably make lesser caltrops not apply bleed, but an extended cripple instead.

babazhook.6805 · September 18, 2017

@Crinn.7864 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:Any Immob break will get you out of the Caltrops field. It not hard to do. I get immobed in a trap set by a ranger. Does this mean Immob should be removed from rangers?

The thief doesn't need you to sit in caltrops for the entire duration, they just need to land a tick of caltrops and a couple lotus hits. Caltrops and lotus are just for cover conditions for the poison. However due to how many cover condis s/d applies, the only way a class could have a hope of cleansing the burst is if they completely avoid caltrops and lotus.

Once you account for server latency and human reaction time, it's not possible to break the immob and dodge before taking lotus and caltrops hits.

A couple of impaling lotus hits amounts to 2 stacks of bleed and 2 torment. I can do more damge to a person Immobbed with a single bounding dodger. I can immob them and do far more damage with a pistol whip.

The Caltrops on uncatchable is all of 1 bleed per second to a maximum of three bleeds.This overly a very small defined area. A single sneak attack from p/x will add 5 bleeds.

The utility caltrops is on a 30 second cooldown. Hardly spammable.

Using "a couple of dodges" to apply 3 bleed stacks and two torment stacks leaves the thief with 2 fewer dodges to avoind incoming attacks. While Imobbed the player in question can still perform all manner of actions including dropping wells, or traps, or other AOE type of attacks any of which will do more damage then "c couple of dodges".

The person immobbed can also act as they would with any other source of immob and break the same with followup attacks or dodges. Immobs are hardly new to the game. They have existed on s/d since s/d was released.

Razor.6392 · September 18, 2017

Needs to go back to 1s immob.

Maybe increase initiative cost, and lower it on Larc. strikes / pistol whip (already nerfed in pvp).

Lighter.5631 · September 18, 2017

Or maybe change panic strike from 2 poison to 1 poison?

sephiroth.4217 · September 18, 2017

I think the range needs to be toned down.

kKagari.6804 · September 18, 2017

@Lighter.5631 said:Or maybe change panic strike from 2 poison to 1 poison?

It is 1 stack of poison. You need to also trait Potent Poison for Panic Strike to inflict 2 stacks.

YourFriendMarvin.4127 · September 18, 2017

Instead of reducing things, they should just put an ICD on the poison on immob. I think that's the more reasonable nerf so people aren't just going in and out with #2 on sword. It forces you to do other things within the ICD.

Jinks.2057 · September 18, 2017

Remove poison on panic strike is the only change needed.

Though with PoF literally coming out this week lets see what happens. If we had another month before PoF then I'd say change now

ZvolTx.3165 · September 18, 2017

Removing the immobilize just kills the build - along with killing any power based sword build even more than they already are. D/P is already stronger than sword builds and the recent change to panic strike actually helped lower the gap between d/p and s/p/d. Instead of blind nerfbats that would technically fix a problem with one particular build while simultaneously destroying other builds that are already in a weak spot as is, why not actually work towards a solution that solves the problem without completely alienating a subset of players that prefer a different playstyle than d/p.

Zenith.7301 · September 18, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:Any Immob break will get you out of the Caltrops field. It not hard to do. I get immobed in a trap set by a ranger. Does this mean Immob should be removed from rangers?
IMMOB always existed on s/d. Uncatchable has always been there. Impaling louus has been there since the release of HOT. Why is it only an issue now?

What's the cooldown on immob breaks vs the amount of times a thief can immob you?

The fix to this build is to either increase the initiative cost of sword 2 or to nerf the condi application of the build.

Daharahj.1325 · September 18, 2017

If you're having a hard time against thief's immobilize, pray condi druid never becomes meta.

Solo.6873 · September 18, 2017

@witcher.3197 said:Condi S/D thief became viable after Anet buffed Panic Strikes to apply poison on immob, a buff probably intended for P/D thief which also has a spammable Immobilize on skill2. Condi S/D becoming the monster of soloQ is likely an unintended side effect.
S/D recieved several buffs since then and I think it can survive some tweaking. Changing Immobilize to Cripple on Infiltrator's Strike could make Pistol mainhand more unique while not hurting power S/D too much and putting an end to a 2 button spam build (while still retaining some viability).

This doesnt work, I would suggest you play power S/D.The immob helps land sword 3 on both S/P and S/D removing the immob is basically asking for the two builds to be removed along with it.

The S/D condi build could be fixed by removing the poison from panic strike and adding something else in it's place OR adding a higher ICD.The immobilize isn't whats killing you, the actual damaging conditions are.Go after those.

babazhook.6805 · September 18, 2017

@Zenith.7301 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:Any Immob break will get you out of the Caltrops field. It not hard to do. I get immobed in a trap set by a ranger. Does this mean Immob should be removed from rangers?
IMMOB always existed on s/d. Uncatchable has always been there. Impaling louus has been there since the release of HOT. Why is it only an issue now?

What's the cooldown on immob breaks vs the amount of times a thief can immob you?

The fix to this build is to either increase the initiative cost of sword 2 or to nerf the condi application of the build.

All thieves could always spam a skill . The IMMOB on Sword existed from day 1. Thief could always stack immobs. A thief using sword to immob can do so three times for 15 ini. Just as with any other skill they spam once that INI can they can do nothing else with their weaponset outside AA.

Your argument is no different then the one against PI or a thief spamming Vault BOTH OF WHICH will do more damage then will immob with 2 stacks of poison.

To that ranger. The ranger will use his Immob and then use Rapidfire along with pet againt the immobed target. This will do exponentially more damage then 6 stacks of poison even if that poison ran its duration. Your fixes are simply unsupportable as it just breaks the s/d set. The FIX is take condition clears and learn how to play against the build. The ranger also has multiple sources of Immob. These tend to last longer then the s/d source.

You can block and dodge infiltrators. Block one, break the Immob on another and if the third gets through (thief now out of ini) you just forced the thief to burn off 15 ini in return for two poison stacks. You are not helpless. It is not required you block or break every attempt the thief makes at an immob. All you need to do is ensure SOME of those attempts fail so INI wasted.

ALL OTHER CONDITION applications the people here keep complaining about have nothing to do with S/d. I can do the exact same thing on d/p. Spam interrupt with Pressure strike traited and I get 2 torment for every headshot.

In about 4 days time the steal for the DE thief will be able to apply conditions against most every build. This can be doubled up with the use of IMPROV along with steal reset which means even MORE condition applications possible then this 6 stacks of poison for 15 ini adds. If people refuse to learn how to cleanse or deal with these builds they will be in worse shape.

DaShi.1368 · September 18, 2017

If a thief needs immobilize to land sw3, then that's not a very good thief. It's a big problem with the build that allows for little effort and big reward. I support changing it to cripple and adding vulnerability too. This rewards thieves who are able to land sw3 without the immobilize crutch.

ZhouX.8742 · September 19, 2017

@babazhook.6805 said:
@Zenith.7301 said:
@babazhook.6805 said:Any Immob break will get you out of the Caltrops field. It not hard to do. I get immobed in a trap set by a ranger. Does this mean Immob should be removed from rangers?
IMMOB always existed on s/d. Uncatchable has always been there. Impaling louus has been there since the release of HOT. Why is it only an issue now?