I'd like to share a few thoughts - get mad about it if you don't like it

[Puck.3697]

7 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

huh? Sidenodding/decapping doesn't matter? lmao...ok

Thief can't side node. Lol, thief shouldn't be able to sustain to do so vs primarily everyone. If thief's winning a 1v1 in spvp. It aint because thief's suspose to, u got outplayed hard. 

Thief +1s fights and decaps nodes, spectre can 1v1 better, but spectre can't one shot, and gives up alot of mobility. 

7 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

huh? Sidenodding/decapping doesn't matter? lmao...ok.

I actually don't like invis in pvp in general and I've said so many times. It's not really that thief is overpowered per se, it's that invis is overpowered and they get pretty much unlimited access to it, which makes them overpowered.

But its not unlimited. Check out WoW if you want to see a perma accessible stealth class, thief gets like 5 seconds of stealth lol. Sure it can bail on the fight. But thieves shouldn't be staying on 1v1s at all lol.  

Kinda the thief's only real role in spvp. Jf you you nerfed that. You'd quite litterally make thief unusable in Spvp lol. 

Sure if u think Thief needs reworking because you think stealth doesn't have a place in the game, but to outright delete a class cause you don't like stealth seems wild. 

 

Edited November 9 by Puck.3697

[Sereath.1428]

> 3. Vindicator "buffs".

Clueless.

And typical.

Edited November 10 by Sereath.1428

[GuriGashi.5617]

Soulbeast is in a perfect spot right now - strong without being op. Anet shouldn‘t touch it anymore after all the reworks past months

Edited November 9 by GuriGashi.5617

[Ovark.2514]

Smokescale losing the CC is like anet tacitly admitting that they don't feel like/don't know how to make the animation wind-up match the moment of the CC. I'm all for losing the CC in this case, except that anet then buffed the hell out of the damage, which .. . .kinda brings us back to square 1. This is still an attack which needs to be dodged but can't. Bravo

[arazoth.7290]

6 hours ago, Puck.3697 said:

Thief can't side node. Lol, thief shouldn't be able to sustain to do so vs primarily everyone. If thief's winning a 1v1 in spvp. It aint because thief's suspose to, u got outplayed hard. 

Thief +1s fights and decaps nodes, spectre can 1v1 better, but spectre can't one shot, and gives up alot of mobility. 

But its not unlimited. Check out WoW if you want to see a perma accessible stealth class, thief gets like 5 seconds of stealth lol. Sure it can bail on the fight. But thieves shouldn't be staying on 1v1s at all lol.  

Kinda the thief's only real role in spvp. Jf you you nerfed that. You'd quite litterally make thief unusable in Spvp lol. 

Sure if u think Thief needs reworking because you think stealth doesn't have a place in the game, but to outright delete a class cause you don't like stealth seems wild. 

 

WoW haw perma stealth on roque(thief class), but less restealths in combat. In gw2 thiefs have less perma uptime on stealth out of combat, but more frequent restealths in combat. gw2 has more active engaging stealth mechanics, WoW has that really passive.

I just wanted to say with this, that I prefere the gw2 version 😁

Edited November 9 by arazoth.7290

[Flowki.7194]

19 hours ago, Deadmoose.6594 said:

Imagine defending a class that can 1 shot many specs from invis

He's obviously within the 9/10 thieves who crutch cap all game.

[Flowki.7194]

2 hours ago, arazoth.7290 said:

WoW haw perma stealth on roque(thief class), but less restealths in combat. In gw2 thiefs have less perma uptime on stealth out of combat, but more frequent restealths in combat. gw2 has more active engaging stealth mechanics, WoW has that really passive.

I just wanted to say with this, that I prefere the gw2 version 😁

Yes but there were far more meaningfull global counters to rogue in WOW, while hunter also had specialised counters. Becuase of that, an average to bad rogue were kept in check /killed by better players, as they should be. In GW2, the avg thief gets away with way too much becuase of the crutch element of mobility/stealth mechanics. But thief mechanics are the only mechanics many people in this playerbase seem to know, so they got no perspective how crutchy they are.

[arazoth.7290]

Just now, Flowki.7194 said:

Yes but there were far more meaningfull global counters to rogue in WOW, while hunter also had specialised counters. Becuase of that, an average to bad rogue were kept in check /killed by better players, as they should be. In GW2, the avg thief gets away with way too much becuase of the crutch element of mobility/stealth mechanics. But thief mechanics are the only mechanics many people in this playerbase seem to know, so they got no perspective how crutchy they are.

Well ranger here and few other have revealed counter, WoW has less of that bc less needed

[Flowki.7194]

11 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Well ranger here and few other have revealed counter, WoW has less of that bc less needed

Ranger reveal does not compare to flare, hunters mark, universal dots/aoedmg/distance from rogue removing stealth etc ;p, cmon you know.

[arazoth.7290]

37 minutes ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Ranger reveal does not compare to flare, hunters mark, universal dots/aoedmg/distance from rogue removing stealth etc ;p, cmon you know.

 

Tbh the new relic system could introduce something like: mobile flare stealth reveal around the caster 360 radius which could stay for 5 seconds + applying short reveal who enters on 30 second cd. Gets activated by elite skill or cds above 20 second cd.

Made another post about it, don't want to make doubles

Edited November 9 by arazoth.7290

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

There is a Thief build that counters DPS Ranger specs, just not many people ever run the template.

Blind spam Thief for real counters DPS Ranger if the Thief stays on the Ranger and rides it hard giving it no range advantage or breathing room.

Here is why:

1. It doesn't need stealth to do this, so reveals don't matter.
2. Dangerous Ranger attacks are all single strike attacks with usually 1/2s to 1s between the animations, even with Quickness. So if a Thief rides it with BP Shot spam, the blinds reapply quickly enough to blind these attacks. This also includes blinding the pet. Blind pulses off Thief are also all ground targeted, which goes under all the bubbles and things that the Ranger has.
3. To even be able to hit the Thief with anything outside of rapid successive attacks like Rapid Fire or Barrage, the Ranger has to start blowing its CDs on important cleanse skills that normally should be saved for stun breaks or a full heal when needed or w/e utility is attached to the skill, but they have to blow it early and waste the value just to be able to make sure say a "Maul" lands when a Thief is riding you with blind spam. Also keep in mind that Rangers, even Druid, can't condi cleanse pets outside of a few niche abilities that either don't get used because they are attached to other bad options, or don't get used frequently enough to be able to fight through the blind spam. So the pet is always blinded 99% of its attacks from this, and the Ranger will be put in a situation where it has to choose to attempt to preserve its CDs for defensive play for survival, or to blow them all nearly immediately in attempts to actually hit the Thief. Either way, it ends up being a losing match up either way and unless the Ranger can greatly outplay the blind spam Thief, the Ranger should peel back to its team or he'll eventually get killed.

A quick swap to a build like what Valhor would run, allows Thief to become a solid counter vs. any DPS Ranger. When all init is preserved for perpetual blind spam that gives the Ranger no breathing room at all, a Thief can just auto attack a Ranger down this way. This is the same problem Warriors had with blind spam before defense line gained resistance on dodge. Too many big hard hitting single strike skills, not enough fast successive attacks like symbols or wells that can fight through blinds.

Edited November 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

19 hours ago, Puck.3697 said:

Except, your still on the same subject of 1v1s in a Game mode where 1v1s Dont matter.

And, ur ignoring the fact there are debuffs present in the game to stop thiefs from being able to just Vanish out. the game aint balanced on 1v1s. WvWvW isnt won on 1v1s Either lol. Trying to say "thief can 1v1" is about as Relevent as Saying My class Looks cooler when afk in town. It isnt the purpose of WvWvW. it doesnt change the fact thief is actually terrible at the objective purpose in WvWvW... 

if the concept that thief is good at one Very Specific thing makes it overpowered, while u have classes that are fully capable of just flexing into builds to be Meta in absolutely everything are absolutely fine. i question the logic behind Critism. 

My class does look cooler afk in town though. 😞

[porkchopMCgee.6193]

19 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

There is a Thief build that counters DPS Ranger specs, just not many people ever run the template.

Blind spam Thief for real counters DPS Ranger if the Thief stays on the Ranger and rides it hard giving it no range advantage or breathing room.

Here is why:

1. It doesn't need stealth to do this, so reveals don't matter.
2. Dangerous Ranger attacks are all single strike attacks with usually 1/2s to 1s between the animations, even with Quickness. So if a Thief rides it with BP Shot spam, the blinds reapply quickly enough to blind these attacks. This also includes blinding the pet. Blind pulses off Thief are also all ground targeted, which goes under all the bubbles and things that the Ranger has.
3. To even be able to hit the Thief with anything outside of rapid successive attacks like Rapid Fire or Barrage, the Ranger has to start blowing its CDs on important cleanse skills that normally should be saved for stun breaks or a full heal when needed or w/e utility is attached to the skill, but they have to blow it early and waste the value just to be able to make sure say a "Maul" lands when a Thief is riding you with blind spam. Also keep in mind that Rangers, even Druid, can't condi cleanse pets outside of a few niche abilities that either don't get used because they are attached to other bad options, or don't get used frequently enough to be able to fight through the blind spam. So the pet is always blinded 99% of its attacks from this, and the Ranger will be put in a situation where it has to choose to attempt to preserve its CDs for defensive play for survival, or to blow them all nearly immediately in attempts to actually hit the Thief. Either way, it ends up being a losing match up either way and unless the Ranger can greatly outplay the blind spam Thief, the Ranger should peel back to its team or he'll eventually get killed.

A quick swap to a build like what Valhor would run, allows Thief to become a solid counter vs. any DPS Ranger. When all init is preserved for perpetual blind spam that gives the Ranger no breathing room at all, a Thief can just auto attack a Ranger down this way. This is the same problem Warriors had with blind spam before defense line gained resistance on dodge. Too many big hard hitting single strike skills, not enough fast successive attacks like symbols or wells that can fight through blinds.

Where is valhor I haven't seen him in the FFA lately

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Aight, someone needs to come out and say it:

Specter condi damage potential need to be nerfed.

Edited November 9 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Sahne.6950]

BEEEP BEEEP 🚚Copium delivery!!! 

 

you got mechanically outplayed by a better player?  FEAR NOT!  we have the finest:   "that build counters me"  you will find in all of the lands.   

also a fresh delivery of "we should nerf that build" will be in stock soon.

DONT MISS OUT!

ranger beats thief any day.

Edited November 10 by Sahne.6950

[shion.2084]

20 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Aight, someone needs to come out and say it:

Specter condi damage potential need to be nerfed.

My condi un-resiliant nades engi really doesn't like condi specter builds 🙂.    I haven't called it out for nerf though, because that is likely just a trade-off of me playing dps scrapper variants (we can't handle condi).   So I spend my time trying to kill everything else and hope someone else on my team sits on the Specter that is tunnelling me.

A slow scrapper is a sad scrapper

I guess the question is, who is the scissors to the condi spectre's paper?

Edited November 10 by shion.2084

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, shion.2084 said:

I guess the question is, who is the scissors to the condi spectre's paper?

d/p SA teef

Edited November 10 by Sahne.6950

[Endorphin.9147]

2 hours ago, shion.2084 said:

My condi un-resiliant nades engi really doesn't like condi specter builds 🙂.    I haven't called it out for nerf though, because that is likely just a trade-off of me playing dps scrapper variants (we can't handle condi).   So I spend my time trying to kill everything else and hope someone else on my team sits on the Specter that is tunnelling me.

A slow scrapper is a sad scrapper

I guess the question is, who is the scissors to the condi spectre's paper?

Deadeye and hybrid virt are 2 things that counter condi spectre

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

8 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

BEEEP BEEEP 🚚Copium delivery!!! 

 

you got mechanically outplayed by a better player?  FEAR NOT!  we have the finest:   "that build counters me"  you will find in all of the lands.   

also a fresh delivery of "we should nerf that build" will be in stock soon.

DONT MISS OUT!

ranger beats thief any day.

Seriously though, Relic Of Demon Queen has made Specter condis extremely outrageous.

The wiki doesn't have any of this new stuff listed correctly or listed at all. What it does is it makes poison -33% heal turn into -50% heal and makes poison stacks on every CC you land. So their normal routine of coming at you with a bunch of CCs and the condi tether while locking you into the CC bubble, has become the condi burst equivalent of what Power Soullbeast was doing pre-nerf.

It's arguable that RODQ is the problem, but I don't feel like getting into that at the moment. I'm simply stating that Specter is dishing out too much DPS lately.

You as an Ele main who would be perpetually out-ranged by this stupid Specter build would likely strongly agree with me if you logged in and did a few 1v1s with some players who are actually good on Specter. Anti-projectile is useless against it and the condi pulses are too frequent to realistically cleanse through the onslaught unless you are a true full anti-condi bunker. The only way to deal with it is to see it before it sees you and ride it with the highest DPS possible and kill it before it kills you.

It's just an unhealthy stupid spec to exist within the intra-class spectrum.

 

Edited November 10 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Waffles.5632]

7 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Seriously though, Relic Of Demon Queen has made Specter condis extremely outrageous.

The wiki doesn't have any of this new stuff listed correctly or listed at all. What it does is it makes poison -33% heal turn into -50% heal and makes poison stacks on every CC you land. So their normal routine of coming at you with a bunch of CCs and the condi tether while locking you into the CC bubble, has become the condi burst equivalent of what Power Soullbeast was doing pre-nerf.

It's arguable that RODQ is the problem, but I don't feel like getting into that at the moment. I'm simply stating that Specter is dishing out too much DPS lately.

 

This relic is pretty hilarious on dagger mirage too. Truly maidenless behavior IMO.

Also for me it says -83% heal effectiveness which is really outrageous. I would say it needs an ICD and it will fall back in line with other relics.

Edited November 10 by Waffles.5632

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

39 minutes ago, Waffles.5632 said:

This relic is pretty hilarious on dagger mirage too. Truly maidenless behavior IMO.

Also for me it says -83% heal effectiveness which is really outrageous. I would say it needs an ICD and it will fall back in line with other relics.

Yeah, there are a few things I haven't gotten around to trying with it yet, which I can't believe I'm even mentioning this here cause they'll likely be ultra jank:

1. Fear Necros with torment on fear trait with that RODQ.
2. Old-school Impaling Lotus Daredevils with Choke Gas spam whirl finish through Choke Gas with bottomless dodge rolling perma poison spam + RODQ.
3. And pretty much anything else that can roll a condi bunker and shove out a lot of disruptive CC.

As annoying as all of that would be ^ I still specifically am concernd with the level of burst Specter is shoving out with it. It's just too high with too little of counterplay due to the channel.

[GenerationX.9178]

Here's how I think the vindicator dodge should be from playing vindicator myself and my experience with it. I would also make it regular dodge because amount times it glitchs and its actaully really hard to see. I'd say theres lot classes that evade lot but they dont have damage vindicator has on dodge is pretty crazy.

Forenunner of Death- keep damage buff and take the damage off of it.

Vassals of the Empire- keep buff to boons, prot and take the damage of it.

Saint of Zu Heltzer- keep it the same.

[Rap Tiger.1257]

On 11/9/2023 at 3:06 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

There is a Thief build that counters DPS Ranger specs, just not many people ever run the template.

Blind spam Thief for real counters DPS Ranger if the Thief stays on the Ranger and rides it hard giving it no range advantage or breathing room.

Here is why:

1. It doesn't need stealth to do this, so reveals don't matter.
2. Dangerous Ranger attacks are all single strike attacks with usually 1/2s to 1s between the animations, even with Quickness. So if a Thief rides it with BP Shot spam, the blinds reapply quickly enough to blind these attacks. This also includes blinding the pet. Blind pulses off Thief are also all ground targeted, which goes under all the bubbles and things that the Ranger has.
3. To even be able to hit the Thief with anything outside of rapid successive attacks like Rapid Fire or Barrage, the Ranger has to start blowing its CDs on important cleanse skills that normally should be saved for stun breaks or a full heal when needed or w/e utility is attached to the skill, but they have to blow it early and waste the value just to be able to make sure say a "Maul" lands when a Thief is riding you with blind spam. Also keep in mind that Rangers, even Druid, can't condi cleanse pets outside of a few niche abilities that either don't get used because they are attached to other bad options, or don't get used frequently enough to be able to fight through the blind spam. So the pet is always blinded 99% of its attacks from this, and the Ranger will be put in a situation where it has to choose to attempt to preserve its CDs for defensive play for survival, or to blow them all nearly immediately in attempts to actually hit the Thief. Either way, it ends up being a losing match up either way and unless the Ranger can greatly outplay the blind spam Thief, the Ranger should peel back to its team or he'll eventually get killed.

A quick swap to a build like what Valhor would run, allows Thief to become a solid counter vs. any DPS Ranger. When all init is preserved for perpetual blind spam that gives the Ranger no breathing room at all, a Thief can just auto attack a Ranger down this way. This is the same problem Warriors had with blind spam before defense line gained resistance on dodge. Too many big hard hitting single strike skills, not enough fast successive attacks like symbols or wells that can fight through blinds.

Seriously, do you have a problem with thiefs? I play ranger and I've played with warrior and revenant, I must admit, with ranger and using smokescale I have no problem against thief, the only class that I see impossible to kill is still bladesworn in 1x1.....even with smokescale Now thief is not op, mesmer, revenant, elementalist, enginner, guardian, necromance, rangers and their sub classes, but bladesworn defeats most classes and loses to few.... even warrior, the rest of the classes I think are balanced.

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:56 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

At higher tiers, Untamed isn't more difficult to play. It doesn't have some elaborately deep playstyle with unleashed skills, it's just a rotation you spam all in a row. The natural pet skills being added as F1-F3 is not difficult to manage, and when you swap to unleash, it's just advantageous to spam all those F1-F3 all at once with the teleport anyway. Ther isn't anything deep or higher skill ceiling about it, though it may feel that way at first or seem that way to non-ranger mains. It's just extra buttons to push but it's easy because you always use those buttons in the exact same way. It's easy to manage after awhile. It's definitely arguable that Soulbeast with two sets of pet skills and two sets of Eternal Bond merge skills, requires a lot more experience & knowledge of how to utilize those skills to get value out of them without wasting them. Because those skills are not something you routinely spam off CD in the same order. You actually have to know when to use or when to wait or when to cancel, ect ect.

Definite 'no' from me here dawg.

Soulbeast is ranger's LI spec by far, which is why they took the hatchet to OWP, Sword, Pig, etc. all in like hotfixes.  They've thus far only beat the crap out of dagger/staff untamed because it was bunker.

You get focus fired on Untamed, you die--even with power, you don't have the mobility bird/gazelle/smokescale merges give you nor the 'get out of jail reeee' card that is Dolyak Stance.  You have some super speed on skills like your heal and elite but that's kinda stupid way to get speed over soulbeast which gets it free via merge.  Soulbeast also gets free movement speed buff this way, etc. etc.

Lastly, not combo'ing your unleashes and spamming those off CD is...not great.  

Thinking the reason 'noobs' are picking up Untamed is the Staff/Dagger build was a good way to be effective while spamming like you mention, but they quickly changed that.  I know for me, if I see anyone on Untamed it's the first 'call target' to be made in nearly any setting.  

For the topic though, think they need to watch mesmer as it is going to get out of hand again like it always does on this sine wave pattern of OP/useless, and meme nade engi needs some tuning with the buffs engi will get with patch.  

We gotta leave thieves alone though, I haven't felt threatened by one in a really long time--power that is.  The condi decap ones get annoying with the stealth access but so does my Druid (I'm guessing).  

In that vein, bunkers like scourge and specter aren't super fun to play against either, but I don't see that being out of line as both were pretty useless prior to demon queen (which ranger can use to good ef--*cough* nvm!).  

Edited November 10 by Gotejjeken.1267

[Waffles.5632]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yeah, there are a few things I haven't gotten around to trying with it yet, which I can't believe I'm even mentioning this here cause they'll likely be ultra jank:

1. Fear Necros with torment on fear trait with that RODQ.
2. Old-school Impaling Lotus Daredevils with Choke Gas spam whirl finish through Choke Gas with bottomless dodge rolling perma poison spam + RODQ.
3. And pretty much anything else that can roll a condi bunker and shove out a lot of disruptive CC.

As annoying as all of that would be ^ I still specifically am concernd with the level of burst Specter is shoving out with it. It's just too high with too little of counterplay due to the channel.

I generally agree with this list. To varying degrees these builds are all degen.

1 hour ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 For the topic though, think they need to watch mesmer as it is going to get out of hand again like it always does on this sine wave pattern of OP/useless, and meme nade engi needs some tuning with the buffs engi will get with patch.  

Once Nov 28th patch hits, Support Mesmer will have powers akin to CMCata IMO.