Nayos part of the main Tyria map? Nayos = Tyria?

[Lord Korag.8439]

As far as I can tell (which is very far, by the way...), there wasn´t any mention of Nayos merging into the continent of Tyria. And yet, it is a part of the map of Tyria, like it would be just another island in the sea or sky out there. The world of Nayos is entirely other world just like Tyria is and therefore it is somewhere in the Mists. Never ever has been any of the mist locations depicited in the map of the land of Tyria, and for a good reason, as it would be like having the Mad Realm just next to the Black Citadel. Not even the Thousand Seas Pavilion, despite fitting nicely into the Cantha is a part of the main map. There is only one exception (to some degree...): Dragonfall. And only because these parts of the Mists were literally teleported into the Tyria (and that, in the end, makes it not an exception, but just an another island in the sea...).

Now, I am nearly 100 % sure this "plot hole" is going to be covered in the future updates (for Isgaren has not even opened the portal yet... Oh boy, we can´t returnt to Tyria until the next update! We are stucked in the Nayos! Help!), however now we have this specific situation: Convergence, despite also being a part of Nayos has it´s own map, entirely for itself. And, on the other hand, Inner Nayos, just another part of Nayos is mapwise chilling right next to the Wizard´s Tower. Sure, it is practical, you can just click the waypoint and *poof* you are there, but lorewise, what is going on here? And when is WvW going to get included into the Tyria world map? And also, why have we jumped right into the Inner Nayos and skipped the Outer Nayos? So many questions, not enough answers....

[Randulf.7614]

Answer about it being a technical design reason deleted ( admit to being wrong about the raids tho)

Can’t be bothered with the continued snobbery and rudeness in the subforum

 

 

Edited November 8 by Randulf.7614

[Lord Korag.8439]

12 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It's just how map design works in GW2. It has to go somewhere in Tyria without a complete redesign of how the map system works. So it goes in free space.

Well, it does not. Or at least didn´t until now. Every geographical location outside of Tyria (Mists, specific pocket dimensions etc.) always had a specific map layer only for themselves. Naturally, the layer was still connected to the main map, however it was invisible until you entered it. The space around is usually covered with some sort of mist/shadow texture.

12 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It's the same with the non-HoT raids. They are also on the map even if they aren't at those positions geographically

You must have seen some other raids we have not as:

Hall of Chains – located in the Underworld and so has it´s own layer and therefore it is NOT visible on the map of Tyria.

Mythwright Gambit – located in the Mystic Forge (literally) and so has it´s own layer and therefore it is NOT visible on the map of Tyria.

The Key of Ahdashim – located northeast of Domain of Vabbi and so it is a geographical location physically existing in Tyria and so it is included on the Tyria world map layer in the same way as the HoT raids are. Simply for they really are there.

 

On the other hand, the old dungeons are also Tyrian locations and yet they are invisible until you enter them, with some slight exception of few entrance areas not covering the entire dungeon space. Then we have several story instances, also invisible. And last but not least, we have the Dragonstorm. Also invisible, despite clearly being a mountain in Tyria.

 

Obviously you haven´t even bothered to read my entire post and only aswered to the title, which is naturally a bit simplistic indeed as it is just a summarizing title.

Edited November 8 by Lord Korag.8439

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

13 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

It's just how map design works in GW2. It has to go somewhere in Tyria without a complete redesign of how the map system works. So it goes in free space. It's not part of Tyria even if it looks it. It's next to Wizard's Tower for ease - when you click on the compass for SoTo, it means everything is together

It's the same with the non-HoT raids. They are also on the map even if they aren't at those positions geographically

In this case, it is purely game system/mechanics taking precedence over lore due to necessity

As far as I am aware all locations shown on the main Tyria map are intended to be physically in Tyria, the raids included.

The raids that don't take place in the same plain of existence are not normally visible on the world map.

I think what Lord Korag is pointing out, is that this appears to be the first time an area that is supposed to be in a completely different dimension to Tyria, appears and is accessible on the world map. So the question being asked is whether Nayos has actually bled into Tyria.

That said I suspect you are right, this is just a game design choice for ease of access, in which case it is a departure from the modus operandi.

[Lord Korag.8439]

17 minutes ago, Remus Darkblight.1673 said:

I think what Lord Korag is pointing out, is that this appears to be the first time an area that is supposed to be in a completely different dimension to Tyria, appears and is accessible on the world map. So the question being asked is whether Nayos has actually bled into Tyria.

Exactly. I suspect it really is going start merging with Tyria at some point. However at the moment it is a blind spot so to speak.

[Randulf.7614]

2 hours ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

Obviously you haven´t even bothered to read my entire post and only aswered to the title, which is naturally a bit simplistic indeed as it is just a summarizing title.

I read your entire post and answered accordingly (based on a prior dev response, although I was incorrect on the raids). But if you are going to be nasty and rude I will delete my reply and you can discuss this on your own.

Dunno why I come to this subforum. It never changes

Edited November 8 by Randulf.7614

[DanAlcedo.3281]

2 minutes ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I read your entire post and answered accordingly. But if you are going to be nasty and rude I will delete my reply and you can discuss this on your own.

Dunno why I come to this subforum. It never changes

It's the lore forum. 

The souls haunting this place need a lore answer to everything. Doesn't matter if it's just QoL or for game design. 

We all know that the map is at this place for QoL reasons. But that isn't enough for some people. 

So don't be to mad. They can't help themselves. 

 

[Kalavier.1097]

I'd go with the simply answer of "Game mechanics" for now.

They have zones attached to regions for achievements/other aspects. SOTO's region is "The horn of maguuma". Which includes Nayos, and the first two maps.

[Lord Korag.8439]

1 hour ago, Randulf.7614 said:

I read your entire post and answered accordingly (based on a prior dev response, although I was incorrect on the raids). But if you are going to be nasty and rude I will delete my reply and you can discuss this on your own.

Dunno why I come to this subforum. It never changes

I had no intention to offend you in any way. Over the decades I might have grown a bit harsh and perfectionist.

I only tried to summarize the raw facts oposing your statements as best as I can. If I have caused you any harm by doing so, I am truthly sorry. That was not my goal.

Although it is true the discusions in the lore section often tend to be somehow wild. Despite that, I think you can´t blame them as they, we, try to seek the truth, and that is always going to be wild in some way at least.

Edited November 8 by Lord Korag.8439

[SunRoamer.5103]

I'd say that it's mechanical. Anet seem to have anticipated these questions, however, because when you look at the map art (while not zooming out too far, to be clear) there's a border of red swirls and circles running around the Nayos map. To me, this seems like a pretty intentional indication that it is, in fact, not part of Tyria.

Regarding "map design", IIRC the quote from back in the day was specifically about actual overworld maps (in the sense of Queensdale, Skywatch, and now Inner Nayos) and how those should always be accessible via/located on the in game map. Lounges, raids, dungeons, PvP modes, story and group content instances such as the newest Convergences etc. obviously do not fall into that category and can therefore be treated differently (by way of an otherwise inaccessible fourth map layer, separate Mists map altogether, etc.).

[Lord Korag.8439]

7 minutes ago, SunRoamer.5103 said:

I'd say that it's mechanical. Anet seem to have anticipated these questions, however, because when you look at the map art (while not zooming out too far, to be clear) there's a border of red swirls and circles running around the Nayos map. To me, this seems like a pretty intentional indication that it is, in fact, not part of Tyria.

Regarding "map design", IIRC the quote from back in the day was specifically about actual overworld maps (in the sense of Queensdale, Skywatch, and now Inner Nayos) and how those should always be accessible via/located on the in game map. Lounges, raids, dungeons, PvP modes, story and group content instances such as the newest Convergences etc. obviously do not fall into that category and can therefore be treated differently (by way of an otherwise inaccessible fourth map layer, separate Mists map altogether, etc.).

I suspected this according to the red border too. But that creates a slighty possible problematic situation: Should ever be created a Tyrian sea zone in the location occupied by Nayos now, how would it be viewed? It is mainly this reason why I would welcome rather a separated map layer for Nayos itself rather than this solution.

[SunRoamer.5103]

1 hour ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

I suspected this according to the red border too. But that creates a slighty possible problematic situation: Should ever be created a Tyrian sea zone in the location occupied by Nayos now, how would it be viewed? It is mainly this reason why I would welcome rather a separated map layer for Nayos itself rather than this solution.

But isn't that an unlikely hypothetical? Which situation would ever require for there to be a Tyrian sea map specifically right there? There is enough empty ocean just about everywhere else on the world map for some "random" sea map to be placed*. If for some reason, such a map had to be in the Horn of Maguuma, just put it a square up or down, or to the other side of the Wizard's Tower. 

The same complaint could then be ledged against The Wizard's Tower and Amnytas as well, since both maps are ridiculously high in the sky and there could have been a theoretical sea map underneath it.

I understand your preference, however. In theory, the compass we now have could have made it more feasible to simply "switch" over to a separate world map specifically for Nayos (or similar overworld mist maps). That said, the way it is now, Inner Nayos might be the only map of that kind to ever exist, so it also seems impractical to have to switch over for all but a singular map.

* In general I also think that, considering existing plot hooks and the like, any future sea/coastal maps are a lot more likely to feature the Isles of Janthir, the Unending Ocean, the Battle Isles or Drowned Kaineng/Canthan Coast/Eastern Shing Jea. Maybe even Orr.

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

I'd go along with the explanation that nayos being placed as it is, is due to technical reasons.

It is an open world map like any other, and therefore is it expactable that people would want to be able to waypoint directly there. Not sure if that changes with finishing the storyline, but at the beginning acts of chapter 4, there is no gateway to the nayos map from the Wizard's Tower either.

And since GW2 did not implement other realms of the map, this is probably the only way they could do it in a timely manner.

Every instance so far takes place on the main map "somwehere" and the ones that got layered off to not be visible from the main view, in general have specific access point to enter (Mistlock with the item, raids with aerodrome, or raid specific entry portals in the world) where it is no problem with disabling just waypointing in from the outside. But they are still physically there, locking other maps from existing in this particular mapspace.

The way they placed Nayos I seriously doubt they'd ever need to actually have any other map in that area anyway.

[Luthan.5236]

I think it is pretty obvious that it is NOT in Tyria - when we actually join the rift to go to the "other side". This is just a design choice for the mechanics - to keep everything on the same map for the waypoints (to have them easily accessible).

Now as to how/why the mounts actually all are available there and have no problems with the other climate ... that is a different thing though. 😄 (I can understand that they are easily accessible in Cantha and that the player char just probably had them with themselves on a boat or something. But the different realms - this always feels a bit weird.)

The big question to the people that think it does not have to be in the same world map - cause there are other parts that aren't: How many of those other parts are directly accessed by waypoint? (Where you have to click on a waypoint on the main map - some "different layer that is invisible until you join".)

Only way this would have worked here was if it was with portal item - which could happen. (We have portal items for other maps as well.) But then you'd be restricted to one waypoint OR having to use the portal item first and then port to another waypoing. (If you wanted to go somewhere else than the default position the portal item spawned you.) Portal item with different waypoint selections could be an option though.

But this was the easy way - and does in no way feel out of place since there basically is only sea/ocean in that part of the map. ProbablyNothing where they intend us to visit the normal Tyria in the future - with everyone disliking unterwater combat. 😄

Basically the option I had expected them to choose.

If they do a sea zone in the future ... then they can just adjust the map again. (And if they are at that point it probably might be a good idea to add old version of Lion's Arch in a similar way. Making a layer toggle button for other "dimensions" or time lines.

[Teknomancer.4895]

30 minutes ago, Luthan.5236 said:

If they do a sea zone in the future ... then they can just adjust the map again. (And if they are at that point it probably might be a good idea to add old version of Lion's Arch in a similar way. Making a layer toggle button for other "dimensions" or time lines.

That already exists, and is accessed from an inventory gizmo.

[Luthan.5236]

Yes I know. I specifically mentioned it here cause it is more annoying from "inside" the old version ... to access other parts of Tyria. (And someone made a thread about it returning you to new LA and not even the previous map you used the item from.) Would feel way more convenient to have this on the same world map as a different "layer". (Access unlock could still require doing the achievement the proper way to get that "gizmo" item.)

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Back during Season 4, then team lead Linsey Murdock stated that all PvE open world maps will be placed in the same world map - among other technical informations about overlapping maps being painful to code properly (hence why the original Lake Doric was scrapped). The only time we'll see maps not on the world map will be instances, festivals, and PvP/WvW.

Given Nayos is placed on the Tyria world map despite very much not being Tyria in the story (why would the Kryptis be "invading Tyria" if Nayos is in Tyria), it's apparent they're keeping to this ideology - whether due to technical limitations or, more likely, just design choice.

On 11/8/2023 at 10:06 AM, Lord Korag.8439 said:

I suspected this according to the red border too. But that creates a slighty possible problematic situation: Should ever be created a Tyrian sea zone in the location occupied by Nayos now, how would it be viewed? It is mainly this reason why I would welcome rather a separated map layer for Nayos itself rather than this solution.

There's a lot of ocean in the world map, they'll just choose a different location for an underwater map. Not like there's any pre-existing lore saying there's stuff in the ocean at that exact spot.

It's not an issue unless you make it an issue.

[Teknomancer.4895]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:34 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not like there's any pre-existing lore saying there's stuff in the ocean at that exact spot.

The only thing that's close is the bit about Largos territory being located in "the depths of the Unending Ocean and the arctic oceans to the far north."

That's non-specific enough to let them place any hypothetical Largos home zone in a variety of locations.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Teknomancer.4895 said:

The only thing that's close is the bit about Largos territory being located in "the depths of the Unending Ocean and the arctic oceans to the far north."

That's non-specific enough to let them place any hypothetical Largos home zone in a variety of locations.

Well, technically we only knew that some largos had visited in the arctic oceans not far from where the northern quaggans lived before Jormag.

The main largos seem to be closer to south of Tyria, given it's fighting the formerly-known-as-deep-sea-dragon-now-retconned-to-be-deep-sea-horror, and all evidence placed that as being southwest-ish of Tyria given the landfall positions of Karka, Krait, and Quaggans.

Edited November 12 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Ashantara.8731]

As suggested before, probably just lazy design so that people can access the waypoint easily (and cheaply).

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

As suggested before, probably just lazy design so that people can access the waypoint easily (and cheaply).

Why is the leap immediately to "Lazy"?