Plot hole in SotO part 2 (Spoilers)

[Tanek.5983]

15 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said:

They establish at the end of EoD that the Kralk bloodline prophetic powers were tied to the previous dragon cycle. Beyond that, they can no longer see. So Glint's not going to be much help anymore as far as the future is concerned.

And the reason they don't use necromancer shenanigans to prevent death from mattering is: "because it's silly and we don't wanna".

The community complains ENDLESSLY whenever they do it, so we shouldn't even be asking why they don't. It's because it's silly and no one wants that when it's done trivially.

They could explain it away with a quick, "Well...death magic is tricky and not completely understood. Sometimes these things simply don't work as intended, so it's best to leave the dead to their rest; especially those of great magical ability" or whatever. Bam. Whatever excuse floats your boat. But it's ultimately: "because it's silly and we don't wanna".

Do we even know it would work trying to bring back a mursaat?

[Kalavier.1097]

51 minutes ago, Tanek.5983 said:

Do we even know it would work trying to bring back a mursaat?

Or even more important, a Wizard whose already linked themselves to Tyria and experienced that change? 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On 11/22/2023 at 10:06 AM, Kossage.9072 said:

It could be hinting at the enigmatic Nephus who is mentioned in a few lore books and dialogues in Inner Nayos. Ambient dialogue and texts suggest that Eparch and Queen Labris potentially are the Nephus trio of siblings' uncle and aunt, while Nephus is some kind of folk hero who the Kryptis are very divided on (some revere Nephus, some react with anger when the name is mentioned). If Nephus is in fact Eparch's sibling, and Peitha, Cerus, and Deimos are Nephus's children, we could be looking at Eparch possibly being an usurper and the "true" king was supposed to be Nephus (even if Eparch was really the person who, as far as we know so far, established the rigid caste society among Kryptis). In that sense Peitha, as an heir to Nephus (if there's a relation due to the house bearing Nephus's name), could thus be the "true king" for real. 🙂

That wouldn't make much sense given SotO's worldbuilding though, which establishes that Eparch was the one to give the kryptis a structure and society loosely based off of Tyria's own historical societies.

Would they really set up a whole slew of brand new kryptis lore just to go in the second half of the storyline "nah, all that was a blatant lie"? I mean sure they could, but it's poor storytelling and more of a betrayal of trust than the retcons to the Six Gods' achievements and behavior over the years.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That wouldn't make much sense given SotO's worldbuilding though, which establishes that Eparch was the one to give the kryptis a structure and society loosely based off of Tyria's own historical societies.

Would they really set up a whole slew of brand new kryptis lore just to go in the second half of the storyline "nah, all that was a blatant lie"? I mean sure they could, but it's poor storytelling and more of a betrayal of trust than the retcons to the Six Gods' achievements and behavior over the years.

They could square that circle by having it so that the concept of nobility and royalty existed, but it was fairly hands off and most Kryptis were left to their own devices. Possibly the king might resolve disputes and take care of things that were viewed as important to Nayos as a whole, but outside of disputes and crises, they all did their own things. Eparch, by contrast, turned it from a fairly loose 'who you to go for help' situation into a dictatorship. This would be consistent with what the wizards would know, since they probably didn't pay a lot of attention to Nayos before it became the home of a serious threat. From their perspective, Nayos went from being a collection of independent individuals into a hostile army through Eparch's assumption of control.

Regarding the possibility of summoning Mabon back if they really needed to talk to him:

It's likely possible, although I'm not sure if the wizards actually have a death magic specialist. They have a different approach to magic that might have deprioritised that branch... but they could probably find someone to do it if they really needed to.

It's certainly less convenient than popping down to his office and asking for his input, though. 

Another thing to keep in mind is that PCs are able to relatively simply deal with the dangers of these rituals because they're among the greatest heroes of their age. From a lore perspective, for instance, the PC can probably 1v1 any of the wizards except maybe Isgarren. So if the Commander/Wayfinder doesn't happen to be around, that swarm of underworld beasts might be too dangerous to handle.

Although that does raise a pertinent question: the previous summons referred to were specifically being summoned from Grenth's Underworld. Do mursaat spirits go there? Is the Underworld even still functional after Kralkatorrik smashed through it?

[mandala.8507]

16 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Would they really set up a whole slew of brand new kryptis lore just to go in the second half of the storyline "nah, all that was a blatant lie"? I mean sure they could, but it's poor storytelling and more of a betrayal of trust than the retcons to the Six Gods' achievements and behavior over the years.

"Betrayal of trust" does not feel like a phrase ever to be associated with stories in video games.

And having extra players in Eparch's little game of thrones wouldn't be a betrayal? Nephus could be the lost "people's champion" or something. The brother most beloved by the people, mysteriously removed from Eparch's path to power and total control over Kryptis society.

Peitha keeps alluding to the fact that much of this drama occurred when these other great Kryptis were still alive and when she was too young/weak to do anything about it.

When she talks about her first meeting with Isgarren, I got a distinct mental image of her as a child getting a glimpse of him alongside the other people of her realm.

I'm definitely curious to understand better Isgarren's previous dealings with the Kryptis and the precise history of these demons.

If that constitutes it being "poor storytelling", then sign me up, I guess. Something tells me it's not, though.

Just for the sake of my understanding what good storytelling is, you got any examples outside of Guild Wars I could have as reference? Something from the past 5 years that actually impressed you?

[Kalavier.1097]

I gotta re-read those notes from Selly. Wish the Wiki had them under the achievement for easier finding lol.

[Serephen.3420]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:20 AM, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

<Insert big character name>: <Expansion big bad boss> is kind of a problem

<Companion character: Commander? Could you please murder everything between here and <Expansion big bad boss>? 

Commander: Yes

GW2 story summed up.

I mean you could the same about any mmo😂

[Kalavier.1097]

6 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I mean you could the same about any mmo😂

It's surprising how similar all these stories are when you strip them of every single aspect, right? 

[Tanek.5983]

10 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I mean you could the same about any mmo😂

3 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

It's surprising how similar all these stories are when you strip them of every single aspect, right? 

True for many of them. I still like a little more meat on there to mask the bare bones. I think maybe SotO rushes things more than I am used to in previous GW2 releases. We don't get to know anyone, information and wizard technobabble has to be rapid-fired at us with little or no context, and the story pretty much is the meta in each zone. 

As an example, when I started the Nayos release, I barely remembered who Ariana was after "meeting" he briefly in the intro. This is, in large part, my issue. I mean, we *did* meet her. And we were later told she is Frode's daughter. It is just that none of it makes much of an impact for me.

Looking at the original topic of this thread, though, I did not remember anything being said about Irja leaving the camp, either. Someone points out that it is noted in the story journal for Heitor's Gate. Yes, it is. But I see that nowhere is that line found in the dialogue mentioned on the wiki page. So, either it is not obvious enough in game to be easily noticed, or that line was somehow cut out and the hole never patched over.
Anyone know exactly where this line is delivered in the game?

Edited November 26, 2023 by Tanek.5983

[Alaia Skyhawk.5064]

23 hours ago, Tanek.5983 said:

Looking at the original topic of this thread, though, I did not remember anything being said about Irja leaving the camp, either. Someone points out that it is noted in the story journal for Heitor's Gate. Yes, it is. But I see that nowhere is that line found in the dialogue mentioned on the wiki page. So, either it is not obvious enough in game to be easily noticed, or that line was somehow cut out and the hole never patched over.

Anyone know exactly where this line is delivered in the game?

I was the one that pointed out the journal entry. When I replayed that section of story on another character I took a closer look at that particular instance. After Irja talks to Ramses when you first enter the instance, she hesitates near the camp entrance. She then pointedly walks out of the camp while you're talking with Peitha and co and disappears rather than go deeper into the camp to talk to the Tyrians as Ramses encouraged her to do. I can't recall where I saw dialogue reference for it. Suffice to say that if you're not the type like I am to constantly pan the camera around looking for details of what is going on, it's easy to miss her leaving.

[Kalavier.1097]

On 11/26/2023 at 11:17 AM, Tanek.5983 said:

True for many of them. I still like a little more meat on there to mask the bare bones. I think maybe SotO rushes things more than I am used to in previous GW2 releases. We don't get to know anyone, information and wizard technobabble has to be rapid-fired at us with little or no context, and the story pretty much is the meta in each zone. 

As an example, when I started the Nayos release, I barely remembered who Ariana was after "meeting" he briefly in the intro. This is, in large part, my issue. I mean, we *did* meet her. And we were later told she is Frode's daughter. It is just that none of it makes much of an impact for me.

Soto does do a lot of the character building in a unique way that doesn't work for some.

In that it's side quests/stories and interactions that happen AFTER the immediate threat of the arc is done, so it's not like we are being distracted from "We gotta get in there and rescue bob! But also, here's Sue's story and how she got here".

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Alaia Skyhawk.5064 said:

I was the one that pointed out the journal entry. When I replayed that section of story on another character I took a closer look at that particular instance. After Irja talks to Ramses when you first enter the instance, she hesitates near the camp entrance. She then pointedly walks out of the camp while you're talking with Peitha and co and disappears rather than go deeper into the camp to talk to the Tyrians as Ramses encouraged her to do. I can't recall where I saw dialogue reference for it. Suffice to say that if you're not the type like I am to constantly pan the camera around looking for details of what is going on, it's easy to miss her leaving.

I both love and hate these little details.
Love them because it really makes GW2 feel more alive, that you don't get directed to every little detail.
But I hate it when they take these very easily missed little details and put it into the main story as if you should know it happened 100%.

LWS3 suffered a lot from expecting players to know all the relevant details like this.

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I both love and hate these little details.
Love them because it really makes GW2 feel more alive, that you don't get directed to every little detail.
But I hate it when they take these very easily missed little details and put it into the main story as if you should know it happened 100%.

LWS3 suffered a lot from expecting players to know all the relevant details like this.

I kinda like it in the sense of "After that conversation they went all in focusing on the task of breaching the barrier/getting to Heitor, and didn't have time to check in on her again." So we see her captured and it is a "wait what?" because our crew hadn't talked to her again.

[Tanek.5983]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I kinda like it in the sense of "After that conversation they went all in focusing on the task of breaching the barrier/getting to Heitor, and didn't have time to check in on her again." So we see her captured and it is a "wait what?" because our crew hadn't talked to her again.

This in the journal still implies we were *told* she left. Which, as far as I can tell, never happened. If so, I still maintain that something was cut or forgotten to the detriment of story comprehension.

"Ramses relayed the news that despite our earlier efforts, Irja had disappeared from camp."

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Tanek.5983 said:

This in the journal still implies we were *told* she left. Which, as far as I can tell, never happened. If so, I still maintain that something was cut or forgotten to the detriment of story comprehension.

"Ramses relayed the news that despite our earlier efforts, Irja had disappeared from camp."

hm. fair. I've noticed the Journal does include a lot of extra detail that isn't present ingame, like how the Gyala ones explained more of the Commander's mental state.

[Tinker.6924]

The soto story is far from  finished. We're either at the half way or 2/3's point, depending on how the next 2 content releases. It's only natural that there is a lot we don't know know yet. 

[Tanek.5983]

7 minutes ago, Tinker.6924 said:

The soto story is far from  finished. We're either at the half way or 2/3's point, depending on how the next 2 content releases. It's only natural that there is a lot we don't know know yet. 

True. But there is a difference between things we don't know yet and things that were not well communicated at the time.