Arianth Moonlight.6453 Posted November 9 Share Posted November 9 7 hours ago, Omega.6801 said: I'm not saying that we get great writing with this """expansion""". But on the one hand stating that you don't follow the story while on the other hand complaining that you don't know what's going on in the story is not a good argument. hey, don't blame me, blame Dommy Mommy. There is no way I'm gonna sit through all her dialogues and wait for her to stop talking... 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varis.5467 Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 Not much of a plot hole but I cringe every time I hear an NPC speaks in the format of "blah blah blah...BLAH". This seems very overused in soto for the purpose of adding weight to the lines.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee.7829 Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 (edited) 18 hours ago, Jaken.6801 said: Edited November 10 by Squee.7829 Posted twice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squee.7829 Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 18 hours ago, Jaken.6801 said: A group of people, pulled into the very realm of things, they struggle to keep at bay at the moment. A group of people who got knocked out and pulled in the last time we saw them. This group of people was stranded there, in a hostile enviroment, with only the help of two Kryptis. Even if one of them is powerful, she didn't seem to be around all the time. We also see these "specialized people" lamenting their losses again and aagain. That this is supposed to be a threat to be taken seriously. That they need the numbers and are struggling. Why should be take the Kryptis threat seriously, if a small group can survive, without any visible aid on a supposed frontline? Even if they are highly trained, there are limits. You just complained that these people are not dying and "doing just fine" then listed a bunch of times they literally said "hey we're dying". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthan.5236 Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 There was no explanation on how the rescued Kryptis got back and captured by the boss. But I assumed she got mind controlled or persuaded somehow. They probably talk through telepathy even amongst themselves - not just with the commander. It was odd that the side char there was pretty useless because of that. Did not really contribute anything to the plot. We'd have attacked the boss anyways and that rescued char did not really help. Just a bit more walking to that place with the green star on the map. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 Easy guys. There's only so much you can shove into ~15 minutes of story. Naturally, characters are going to be introduced and killed off within the span of a few minutes. Just use your imagination and fill in the details as if this weren't some rushed garbage and you'll see it for the true masterpiece it is! 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 6 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said: There was no explanation on how the rescued Kryptis got back and captured by the boss. But I assumed she got mind controlled or persuaded somehow. They probably talk through telepathy even amongst themselves - not just with the commander. It was odd that the side char there was pretty useless because of that. Did not really contribute anything to the plot. We'd have attacked the boss anyways and that rescued char did not really help. Just a bit more walking to that place with the green star on the map. I haven't done the story yet but I recall reading that another character literally points out the kryptis was spooked by the Tyrians and had fled into the wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Falcon.5496 Posted November 10 Share Posted November 10 The devs had Heitor kill Irja in front of us in order to show us that Heitor's a villain. Otherwise we only have Peitha's word that she's a baddie that needs to be killed. This also makes Peitha appear to be good and trustworthy. A better way would have been to have us foil a lot of various plots that Heitor started in order to build up to the fight while also showing that she's a villain, but the devs clearly wanted to just push past that and get to the next step of the story. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandala.8507 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 7 hours ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said: The devs had Heitor kill Irja in front of us in order to show us that Heitor's a villain. Otherwise we only have Peitha's word that she's a baddie that needs to be killed. This also makes Peitha appear to be good and trustworthy. This is an oversimplification of what that scene demonstrated for us. 1. It showed that the Kryptis are incredibly scared of breaking with Eparch or fighting back, both with Irja leaving our camp and finding herself in Heitor's clutches and with Heitor still remaining loyal to Eparch instead of joining Peitha in her quest to overthrow him; even if it meant us striking her down right then and there. Heitor hints at things having gotten even worse at the castle since Peitha fled, and it seems like even those closest to Eparch are being forced to eat or be eaten. Be of use or be consumed, basically. Some of the extra lore around the place I think also suggests that Heitor stationed herself out here as a means to escape the situation at the castle, which must be truly dire. The barrier was apparently constructed to keep the remaining Kryptis trapped inside. She'd rather kill her own or die trying than have to go back there, and she doesn't think Peitha will succeed in her plan to overthrow the Midnight King. 2. It demonstrated how the Kryptis are consuming one another for power. As Heitor devoured Irja, she gained lots of boons and the story journal described her as becoming a much truer threat once she'd done so. And this was just the power taken from a weak nothing like Irja. Imagine the strength of a being consuming those with actual potential. Something to keep in mind as we move deeper into Nayos and encounter beings who've been feeding off Kryptis of true merit. 3. It showed the compassion Peitha and Ramses have for their kin, both by their distress when Irja was consumed, but also by their attempts to initially win Heitor over despite her flaws and inherent cruelty. Even after she consumes poor Irja, they plead with her to reconsider and join them on another path forward for their people. Peitha attempts to brush off the emotions rising within her after slaying Heitor, but through Ramses and our own interactions with her after suggesting she's so clear-minded about all this, we're given a glimpse at Peitha and her allies' inner confliction. Any player operating under the assumption Peitha's not to be trusted at this point is probably doomed to misunderstand the story as it moves forward. Peitha and her motivations are clearly good, and the Commander knew this before they ever stepped foot in Nayos with her. But whether or not she can keep her resolve and follow through to the end of this coup is a different question altogether. She has deep ties to all the players involved, and the labels "hero" and "villain" probably feel entirely inadequate and binary to her in this moment. Peitha likely views Heitor ultimately as a victim; too scared and weak to fight back against her father, and her evil acts being a consequence of that. Despite the horrors she's witnessing, she's still struggling to see them solely as the enemy. It's not so black and white for her as it is for us. 8 hours ago, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said: A better way would have been to have us foil a lot of various plots that Heitor started in order to build up to the fight while also showing that she's a villain, but the devs clearly wanted to just push past that and get to the next step of the story. They did do this, though? That's the entire premise of the open world for this part of the map. This is Heitor's domain and she's been pushing Peitha's rebellion back from here and eating disloyal stragglers. 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Falcon.5496 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 1 hour ago, mandala.8507 said: Any player operating under the assumption Peitha's not to be trusted at this point is probably doomed to misunderstand the story as it moves forward. Peitha and her motivations are clearly good, and the Commander knew this before they ever stepped foot in Nayos with her. Not necessarily. Peitha could simply be using the Commander to overthrow Eparch because of her own desire for power. Just because she's been careful to act the good guy around the Caommander doesn't mean that she is. And nothing she's done prevents her from turning on the Commander once their usefulness has come to an end. Not that she's likely to, but it could happen. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthan.5236 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 (edited) I might not have paid attention to the moment where she supposedly fled. (The killed minor char.) This was just when you arrived at the camp and had a short dialoque and then had to move on into the camp to trigger more with the main chars. (I remember that I did not see her anymore at the map though.) A bit odd to just go to the camp to then flee again without anyboy noticing - then getting captured - when the Ward has a few members scouting out there. I would agree with Peregrine Falcon here - they obviously wanted to show Heitor as evil. But I think just hearing about it from Peitha would have been enough. At least better than a char we don't really get to care about. For a really good in-depth build-up they'd have needed cities/villages. Instead of just landscape. And us being able to see how they live ... and fear the rulers/dictators. (Similar how to the Forged attacked people in PoF.) Would have needed a lot more work though. And maybe the classic setup - expansion + this being continued in another living world season later. Just a few smaller releases are not enough when the major part was in Tyria and the rest is just in that one last map. (Big thing in the middle might be something like a "city" or "castle"? I bet next release we will go to the west gathering allies or beating a sub-boss again. Major boss in the middle of the map.) Edit: I also agree on the Peitha thing: While they made a good job depicting her as someone that is not evil and wants to help their people ... it could be that she is just good at acting. I mean ... with this set up and her doing pretty well at deceiving the commander ... such a reveal would hit much harder. Feel more entertaining to experience. While not being totally random - since ... Kryptis are just good at manipulating. Edited November 11 by Luthan.5236 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandala.8507 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 (edited) 3 hours ago, Luthan.5236 said: Edit: I also agree on the Peitha thing: While they made a good job depicting her as someone that is not evil and wants to help their people ... it could be that she is just good at acting. I mean ... with this set up and her doing pretty well at deceiving the commander ... such a reveal would hit much harder. Feel more entertaining to experience. While not being totally random - since ... Kryptis are just good at manipulating. This would be a silly flip flop and completely destroy any depth her character has, so nah. I don't think that's a good read of what's going on at all. If she did betray us later on, it won't be because she was acting here. That's just not a good take. Edited November 11 by mandala.8507 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 26 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said: This would be a silly flip flop and completely destroy any depth her character has, so nah. I don't think that's a good read of what's going on at all. If she did betray us later on, it won't be because she was acting here. That's just not a good take. Also, GW villains tend to actually be a bit.. smarter then that. Especially ones who actively know the Commander's strength. They don't just go "hahaha you fools" and flip sides just because a goal is done. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randulf.7614 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 56 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said: Also, GW villains tend to actually be a bit.. smarter then that. Especially ones who actively know the Commander's strength. They don't just go "hahaha you fools" and flip sides just because a goal is done. Agreed. I mean she doesn't even have a pointy tache or an opera cloak to twirl around her menacingly! Such things are easy give aways! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandala.8507 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 15 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said: Also, GW villains tend to actually be a bit.. smarter then that. Especially ones who actively know the Commander's strength. They don't just go "hahaha you fools" and flip sides just because a goal is done. I mean, I don't think it's because GW has always had higher standards. Khilbron does almost exactly this. The second he had what he wanted he was like, "haha, you fools! Tyria's mine!", but like, it's just not compelling character writing and doesn't make sense here for Peitha or for the studio's current standards when it comes to characters. We already know what Peitha's like when she's being duplicitous and conniving, because that's what she was doing for the first 3 acts of SotO already until she at the last moment decided to act on her opportunity and thwart Cerus' plan to kill us. Like she tells us afterward, she was at first just trying to mess with Cerus by interfering with his hunt, but over time realized we were the real deal and could be the champion she requires to save her home. And with the context we now have from Nayos that the demon realm itself is being corrupted by Eparch's schemes, paired with the realization that many Kryptis only aid him under duress, we have to reorient ourselves to the reality of the situation: that the Realm of Dreams is complex and not at all what we thought it was based on our initial interactions with it in the Temple of Febe and through the Kryptis we encountered via their incursions into Tyria. The way the plot is unfolding and how the characters are communicating simply doesn't support the idea of Peitha actively planning to double-cross us. The emotional tone of the situation is too raw and honest for that to be the case. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 (edited) On 11/8/2023 at 7:03 AM, Biziut.3594 said: The champion that killed her is/was Peithas cousin. Yes, she was. Unfortunately, the Wiki entry on her is sparse: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heitor On 11/11/2023 at 3:20 PM, mandala.8507 said: I mean, I don't think it's because GW has always had higher standards. Khilbron does almost exactly this. The second he had what he wanted he was like, "haha, you fools! Tyria's mine!" I am having that exact feeling about Peitha, to be honest. Once we get rid of Eparch, she might show us her real face - who knows? Edited November 12 by Ashantara.8731 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandala.8507 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 2 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said: I am having that exact feeling about Peitha, to be honest. Once we get rid of Eparch, she might show us her real face - who knows? And like I've been saying, I think that's a bad take at this point in the story. First 3 acts of SotO? Sure, this take makes sense. Peitha was being super suspicious and we didn't know her at all. After this first update, though? It means you aren't paying attention to what's going on. If they end up writing her as, "haha!, I was evil the whole time and this was all just an act to win you over and take the throne" I'd probably uninstall the game. Luckily, I'm 100% certain that isn't where the story is going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 3 hours ago, mandala.8507 said: I mean, I don't think it's because GW has always had higher standards. Khilbron does almost exactly this. The second he had what he wanted he was like, "haha, you fools! Tyria's mine!", but like, it's just not compelling character writing and doesn't make sense here for Peitha or for the studio's current standards when it comes to characters. I mean, that's GW1 not GW2. But even in GW1 they also made it blatantly clear that he was not a good guy before he actually did the twist. So far Peitha has a grand total of.. (without doing the new episode just yet cause RL) one highly suspicious moment/aggressive moment. And that's in the ambush event at bastion of Obscure. Where she declares that none other then herself can possess the commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercurialKuroSludge.8974 Posted November 11 Share Posted November 11 Is the story barebones? ofc it is. Is the minor character getting killed off a plothole? Not really no. If people wanted to care about the story, but can't be bothered to pay attention to story bits dropped here and there, that's just reading comprehension. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted November 12 Share Posted November 12 On 11/11/2023 at 4:01 AM, Peregrine Falcon.5496 said: The devs had Heitor kill Irja in front of us in order to show us that Heitor's a villain. Otherwise we only have Peitha's word that she's a baddie that needs to be killed. This also makes Peitha appear to be good and trustworthy. A better way would have been to have us foil a lot of various plots that Heitor started in order to build up to the fight while also showing that she's a villain, but the devs clearly wanted to just push past that and get to the next step of the story. I do wonder if they could have demonstrated this more effectively without spending all of five minutes or so trying to establish Irja as a sympathetic character, but instead having Heitor eat some of her own troops. That would both come off as more evil (Irja could be classified as punishing a deserter, but eating her own loyal troops would be purely murder for the sake of power), and also demonstrate that loyalty to Eparch is no protection from being eaten. Could also create justification for a phasing system, with reinforcements coming in periodically, only for Heitor to eat them and gain new powers in the process. Come to think on it, if she also grew bigger, that might also provide some explanation beyond sexual dimorphism of why Cerus and Deimos were significantly larger than Peitha. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted November 12 Share Posted November 12 (edited) 18 hours ago, mandala.8507 said: After this first update, though? It means you aren't paying attention to what's going on. If they end up writing her as, "haha!, I was evil the whole time and this was all just an act to win you over and take the throne" I'd probably uninstall the game. Luckily, I'm 100% certain that isn't where the story is going. I was paying attention, and no one said anything about "evil", but we don't really know what she has planned after Eparch. Demons are not the good guys in general. 😉 I was merely suggesting that she might take over the throne to ensure no second Eparch happens. Whether that comes with a hunger for power remains to be seen. We don't really know anything about what the social structure of their realm looked like before Eparch's reign. All we know is that he is stealing their dreams and makes them suffer (is even feeding on them), and that he has established some sort of "nobility" versus the "common demons" society. Edited November 12 by Ashantara.8731 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandala.8507 Posted November 12 Share Posted November 12 25 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said: Demons are not the good guys in general. A bold assumption for a game like GW2 and a world like Tyria. 26 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said: I was merely suggesting that she might take over the throne to ensure no second Eparch happens. Whether that comes with a hunger for power remains to be seen. Well, we already know this is her goal. She says so in the open world meta that she is the true king. But that isn't what you suggested in your previous comment. You implied by saying she would show us her "real face" that we aren't seeing her true self right now, which I still think is a bad take. 29 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said: We don't really know anything about what the social structure of their realm looked like before Eparch's reign. But we do, though. Mabon tells us that before Eparch they were solitary creatures. Then Eparch made himself king and created a society in his image in Nayos. This is confirmed by Cerus' monologue where he states that Febe was struck down by Deimos in the temple because he was a champion of autonomy. They all just did their own thing before. There was no societal structure before he established one. 32 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said: and that he has established some sort of "nobility" versus the "common demons" society. This is not alluded to anywhere that I can remember. Plenty of "common" demons are aiding Eparch by all indications. Lack of nobility and allegiance with Eparch aren't mutually exclusive, as far as I'm aware. And not all the Kryptis lords are with him. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted November 12 Share Posted November 12 2 hours ago, mandala.8507 said: But that isn't what you suggested in your previous comment. You implied by saying she would show us her "real face" Yes, I assume she is hiding something from us. It's foolish to trust a demon. 😉 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mandala.8507 Posted November 12 Share Posted November 12 7 minutes ago, Ashantara.8731 said: Yes, I assume she is hiding something from us. It's foolish to trust a demon. 😉 So the story's gonna fly right over your head then. Got it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted November 12 Share Posted November 12 6 minutes ago, mandala.8507 said: So the story's gonna fly right over your head then. Got it. ??? You already know how it's going to end then? Wow, tell me! 😂 Is Eparch Peitha's father? Are we going to kiss her goodbye? Tell me!! 🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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