Are we really comfortable paying for unfinished expansions?

[Balsa.3951]

11 hours ago, Puck.3697 said:

But there was no progression yoy litterally didn't progress anything. The jade bot is the identical factor of if anet just buffed base vit of all classes. 

Itd of changed nothing regardless of either of these options 

No. Every Patch gives WoW another power limit lol. You actively grind gear, for weeks. For a patch to eliminate your progress and refarm gear again. 

In gw2 if you play 1 month of EoD and quit til the following expansion. Your still completed returning to the game. 

In WoW do the same and you will be massively behind absolutely everyone. 

Verticle progression means a system that progresses vertically as you grind it. You dont grind the jade bot, it doesnt increase in power. 

The system itself isn't verticle. Because there's no engagement with the system to make it stronger or grow. 

It's funny that you make such statements thinking ur right but don't understand what verticle progression is. 

A verticle progression is when a system continously grows from player engagement with said system. 

Its quite clear you haven't actually played a verticle progressive game, if you think power creep and verticle progression are the same thing. 

i really wonder if u ever look ur stats when ur jade bot is on ans charged. maybe try that also go into combat and look ur boons

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

SotO is, I guess, an expansion using the literal meaning of the word "expansion."  Considering the terms generally used in game marketing, SotO feels more like a season pass.  So, that's what I will think of it as to answer the (probably rhetorical) question the OP asks.

So, am I comfortable paying for a season pass at the SotO price?  Yes.  Based on what other games charge, there are very few bargains out there.  The combination of story, explorable maps, progression, instanced content and game mechanic changes seems fairly comparable to what other games are charging for similar levels of content/changes.

Do I like SotO, though?  I'm not fond of the story, nor have I been since the latter part of IBS fell on its face.  During a similar time frame, I've found GW2 open world PvE to be similarly displeasing.  Where that leaves me with regard to SotO is considering whether instanced content access and mechanics changes is sufficient to justify the price.  My answer is, just barely.  Had I known what I know now about SotO story/PvE I might not have purchased.

What might that mean for my approach to future "season passes?"  I'm right up there with Danikat.  I will consider each one at the time once I can see what's on  offer.  Since I will be assuming, going forward, that any story or open world PvE will be unappetizing to me, whatever else is in the pass is going to have to make up for the unappetizing nature of the (apparent) "main" features.

[Cyninja.2954]

33 minutes ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

GW2 is in end of development cycle... we get reused animations on every weapon proficiency incoming and the story we just got was half the old living world episode...

Very possible, doesn't change the fact that Blizzard has been putting out mediocre content for multiple years now, has been increasing their revenue generation and monetization tricks while moving more and more into the mobile market. The company has become a meme of its former self and it has been that for years now.

You are correct though, you are very likely to be able to continue playing mediocre content for years to come, unless they let WoW go the way of the dodo, or rather Heroes of the Storm, which they absolutely will do if they consider the revenue not good enough.

In short: if you want safety, mediocrity and borderline the scummiest monetization practices in the western market, you will feel very comfortable with Blizzard products. Diablo 4 (and I'm not even stooping so low as to mention Diablo Immortal) just recently again was living proof that they are not able to release a game which holds players attention for more than a minute.

Back to your original premise and question: if this is the quantity and quality Arenanet can put out for the price they ask, I'll take that any day of the week over what Blizzard asks for their products, and for me it's not even about the money.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Cyninja.2954

[Sobx.1758]

Not really. As I already wrote before the release, I'd rather wait longer and get a whole expansion for the price paid, instead of paying up-front for something that doesn't even exist yet and then having it drip fed every few months.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[Solene.3067]

I am not always satisfied with ArenaNet and I think there has been better content in GW2 than the content we got now with Soto but the comparison with World of Warcraft is ridiculous.

ArenaNet has designed GW2 very well to keep all content relevant, there are a lot of maps from former expansions with popular content like meta events that are done every day. And not only level 80 maps are relevant, you can go to any map with a lower level and there is relevant content. WoW on the other hand is focussed on the last expansion. Content from earlier expansions is more or less irrelevant. Open world maps outside the last expansion and the human starter area are dead in WoW. I mean really dead.  You will meet rarely another player.

The world in WoW is really small if you only count the populated regions.

I sometimes play WoW to get a little change from GW2 and I always miss many quality of life features. Example: I want to move some objects from character 1 to character 2. A simple task which is done fast in GW2. In WoW there is no account bank. Every character has their own bank. I have to go to a bank with character 1 and then walk to a letterbox and mail the objects to character 2. Sounds not much but it is annoying.

I could go on for hours to mention other examples about outdated and archaic design in WoW but it is not worth the time.

Bottom line Guild Wars 2 is far superior to WoW and WoW is absolutely overpriced. In my opinion  WoW is not worth a monthly fee.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by Solene.3067

[Puck.3697]

11 hours ago, Polar.8634 said:

They actually are. If with expansion character becomes stronger then without it it is vertical progression by definition.

No it doesn't. 

Because its not progression. You don't progress the system. Otherwise you'd account ur class getting buffed as a verticle progression. 

Elite speccs are a power creep, but thats caused by imbalance im afraid 

This is where tbe mix up is. 

- verticle progression, is on the system, 

- power creep is the result of power implementation. 

Vertucle progression is a system which is a ongoing chase for a continous increase of power. 

I.e 

In terms of world of warcraft. 

Gear progression. 

Borrowed power. 

What isnt verticle progression. 

Tier sets. 

Elite speccs, are direct power creep, however they arent verticle progression, theres no progression to elites. U unlock a Elite its a Elite. 

[ugrakarma.9416]

8 hours ago, Tanuki.4603 said:

Can you really say that WoW is trash when the main long-term content of Soto is kittening Rifts?

whos like play that? is a very childsh game:

https://imgur.com/a/U6kdWh3

seriously this is that gw2 competitor? ..... so theres the recipe to Anet make Gw2 grow: stop looking at wow.

 

 

[enigmatic.3576]

14 hours ago, Puck.3697 said:

Are you including living world story maps in this, as that'd be largely unfair, as these don't actually come with the cost of a expansion, but a additional cost, while SoTo isnt charging anyone anything additional? 

It'd be unfair not to include them as the expansion is require to play them.  Active players got them at no cost with active being someone who logged in once every 3-4 months.  You could even add the full cost of a season unlock and it'd still be a better value for what you get compared to SotO.

[Puck.3697]

35 minutes ago, enigmatic.3576 said:

It'd be unfair not to include them as the expansion is require to play them.  Active players got them at no cost with active being someone who logged in once every 3-4 months.  You could even add the full cost of a season unlock and it'd still be a better value for what you get compared to SotO.

Except it would, because they did come at additional cost. Them handing it out for free was to build up sales for EoD. 

It doesnt realistically change that fact, people who progressed PoF. Likely bought this, it litterally had the most powerful mount in the game locked behind it. 

In a sense ofcourse PoF was, PoF sold u a 2 year expansion for £20. SoTo sold u a 1 year expansion for £20. So yah by basic math it does, but thats because PoF was insanely under charged for a 2 year expansion in 2017. Lol 

That's just factual. 

Gw2s competitors are receiving 4-5x more in revenue, that means GW2s budget is also 4-5x smaller then its competitors. How can you expect a game with some of the lowest earnings in the genre to seriously put out content at a competitive rate. 

Gw2 needs to knock up the price on its content, because right now WoWs selling a m+ / raid farm with very little else to do outside of instanced based loot simulators, for over £100 a year, while gw2 is charging £10. 

You can argue "well gw2 drops less content" but does it. When you look at WoWs meaningful content, what it has over gw2 in terms of instanced based content, it loses in open world content. 

And while WoW gets to copy and paste content with its model reducing the cost of production, gw2 cant. 

[Ashen.2907]

4 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

The game passed its prime more than 10 years ago.

Agreed.

Less than 10 years ago for GW2.

[Mihile.7609]

As someone who also plays WoW, they've barely added anything lol and that's the final patch besides raids next week we have for a year.

IMO, MMO's are just slowly a dying breed. You played a few, you played them all. Getting boring.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Mihile.7609

[enigmatic.3576]

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

Except it would, because they did come at additional cost. Them handing it out for free was to build up sales for EoD.

They were free when they first released well before EoD was even a concept.

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

It doesnt realistically change that fact, people who progressed PoF. Likely bought this, it litterally had the most powerful mount in the game locked behind it. 

Skyscale is not the most powerful mount.  It has always been using the different mounts in the situations that they excel at.  I, and many others who were active players during LS4, did not have to pay for anything.

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

In a sense ofcourse PoF was, PoF sold u a 2 year expansion for £20. SoTo sold u a 1 year expansion for £20. So yah by basic math it does, but thats because PoF was insanely under charged for a 2 year expansion in 2017. Lol 

Undercharged based on what?  Would everyone who paid the original price for that expansion have been fine paying more?

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

That's just factual. 

Saying something is not factual does not mean that it is factual.  Do you have sources?

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

Gw2s competitors are receiving 4-5x more in revenue, that means GW2s budget is also 4-5x smaller then its competitors. How can you expect a game with some of the lowest earnings in the genre to seriously put out content at a competitive rate. 

Larger player populations and many of them also charge subscription fees so yeah they bring in more money.  They did just fine with LS3 and LS4.  Are you new?  Have you read anything that I have said in my posts when I brought up LS3 and LS4 with my comparisons?  Have I said that they needed to compete with those other MMOs?

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

Gw2 needs to knock up the price on its content, because right now WoWs selling a m+ / raid farm with very little else to do outside of instanced based loot simulators, for over £100 a year, while gw2 is charging £10. 

Or GW2 prices can not be increased.

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

You can argue "well gw2 drops less content" but does it. When you look at WoWs meaningful content, what it has over gw2 in terms of instanced based content, it loses in open world content. 

I don't care what other MMOs have as I have been comparing to what we have previously gotten with GW2 expansions.

1 hour ago, Puck.3697 said:

And while WoW gets to copy and paste content with its model reducing the cost of production, gw2 cant.

There is "copy and pasting" being done with GW2 content.  

[WeightTrainer.3219]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:16 PM, Tanuki.4603 said:

People have sour taste after this patch beacuse the story is less than old living world, we don't even get full map like old living world and strike got barely any work done besides a copypaste mechanic from a previous strike, and is extremely easy even for pug groups.  We've paid for an unfinished expansion without any feature and it only shows now how empty this patch will be, since we cannot even work further to progress our legendary armor like with the last patch, and the wait for the next update is twice as it was for this. Let's not forget the last fractal realease bugged for months with kittened up scaling as it was a scrapped strike.

Now, wow released their 10.2 patch yesterday, skim thru this page linked below to see how much content they add:

https://www.wowhead.com/guide/dragonflight-patch-10-2-guardians-of-the-dream-overview

Its an absurd amount compared to GW2, one patch is way more content than entire soto with 4 updates, they get tons of cosmetics available ingame, tons of customization, meaningful storylines. the story is 10 hours of gameplay + raid and side quests twice the amount of that.

 

Are we really comfortable with the current ANet approach being the right future for GW2? Paying for unifnished expansions that bring very little every 3-4 months? There has to be a better way to deliver content.

Just don't buy future expansions.

[Darklord Roy.2514]

19 hours ago, Puck.3697 said:

That's not verticle progression. Its not ever growing. You buy a level 10 bot and done for life.... its just something you buy once and move on, there's no verticle progression to that system. 

 

 

Jade bots brought with them a brand new equippable item with stats that started out weak and were upgraded over time. Every character is innately weaker without one now.

Gear progression is still a form of vertical progression.

[Puck.3697]

5 minutes ago, Darklord Roy.2514 said:

Jade bots brought with them a brand new equippable item with stats that started out weak and were upgraded over time. Every character is innately weaker without one now.

Gear progression is still a form of vertical progression

But its not moving gear progression. 

It's a flat line. There's no curve at all to the power, because you get it you wear it, the end of any increase. 

There's no progression to this system. It's just a jump in power. 

There's no difference between that jade bot and anet just buffing the base hp of every class by the same amount litterally at all. It eas just a way to make a expansion requiring buying to have it. 

For a system to be a verticle progression. It has to have a curve to progress, and the jade bot as a system is basically just a flat buff. 

Systems in gw2 end the same day they begin, because theres no progression to anything in the game. Nothing grows beyond its base implementation. So its not verticle its a flat line plateau from launch to now. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Ashen.2907]

37 minutes ago, Puck.3697 said:

But its not moving gear progression. 

It's a flat line. There's no curve at all to the power, because you get it you wear it, the end of any increase. 

There's no progression to this system. It's just a jump in power. 

There's no difference between that jade bot and anet just buffing the base hp of every class by the same amount litterally at all. It eas just a way to make a expansion requiring buying to have it. 

For a system to be a verticle progression. It has to have a curve to progress, and the jade bot as a system is basically just a flat buff. 

Systems in gw2 end the same day they begin, because theres no progression to anything in the game. Nothing grows beyond its base implementation. So its not verticle its a flat line plateau from launch to now. 

Adding power with one progression system, then adding a new progression system to increase power further, and then another, and so on is vertical progression even if each individual system increases power only once. Vertical progression does not have to come from a single ongoing source to be VP.  What matters is not that a single system only progressed vertically once but rather that characters are continuing to progress vertically.

[Dopamine.6324]

poor jade bots did nothing wrong, why blame them for vertical progress when you should blame ascended items, right?

[Gebhels.9361]

If you ain't feeling comfortable to buy Soto as mini parts, then dont. You can always wait until the full release of all parts and then buy Soto. Thats is what I decided to do 🙂

[Splat.7981]

13 hours ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

Guild Wars 2 having issues does not make WoW better. That entire train of thought is backwards. If you enjoy WoW, good for you. The game passed its prime more than 10 years ago.

Blizzard and the way they milk their player base though is not subjective. The company is objectively one of the worst in regards to cost and scummy monetization practices, even surpassing EA by now.

If you want to hold games to a higher standard, then do so across the board and don't be selective in what you criticize.

It's true, WoW had it's prime many years ago, it should be concerning to players in MMORPG's like GW2 and others as to why WoW is still one of the most played games of it's even when it's prime has passed alongside FF14.

Indeed Activision Blizzard has some questionable practices, they demand a monthly fee so that people can play WoW and yes they do have a cash shop. but again what online games doesn't have a cash shop these days? GW2 doesn't have a subscription but when it first launched i remember that it was a buy to play game, all the updates after you purchased the game were going to be free...later they realized, like any other company out there in the real world, that they need money so they started releasing buy to play expansions and the game also had a cash shop early on...people often seem surprised or shocked that a online game would ask from their players to pay a monthly subscription and yet again probably the most played MMORPG's to this day are WoW and FF14 both with monthly fees and cash shops and yet they conglomerate the biggest populations in mmorpg's.

GW2 was released to try and revolutionize the scene within it's genre, it think they succeeded in more than one but also they have done some questionable things, I'm sure I would find a list if i would browse YouTube or these forums or even discord, if people are displeased with the quantity they got with the current expansion and it's cadence it's ok and they can say it, in the same way that you or many out there enjoy things as they are.
There's always room to improve.

The thing is that saying that a game like WoW, or any other game, is trash without any other sort of argument is just asinine.

[Splat.7981]

10 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

whos like play that? is a very childsh game:

https://imgur.com/a/U6kdWh3

seriously this is that gw2 competitor? ..... so theres the recipe to Anet make Gw2 grow: stop looking at wow.

 

 

WoW and FF14 are competitors to GW2, ESO is one as well.

For you WoW is a childish game, i respect that, but WoW also has more people playing and invested in the game when compared to GW2, Final Fantasy 14 also has more players than GW2...is FF14 a little to weeb for you?
Maybe these 2 games are doing some things right compared to GW2 if they achieve more playing retention.

I was checking a mmo population chart and GW2 doesn't show up in any chart for population, activity since 2019...so maybe something is wrong at Arenanet's house.
Something is wrong  when Old School Runescape has beaten GW2 in terms of player numbers and activity.

[ugrakarma.9416]

13 minutes ago, Splat.7981 said:

WoW and FF14 are competitors to GW2, ESO is one as well.

For you WoW is a childish game, i respect that, but WoW also has more people playing and invested in the game when compared to GW2, Final Fantasy 14 also has more players than GW2...is FF14 a little to weeb for you?
Maybe these 2 games are doing some things right compared to GW2 if they achieve more playing retention.

I was checking a mmo population chart and GW2 doesn't show up in any chart for population, activity since 2019...so maybe something is wrong at Arenanet's house.
Something is wrong  when Old School Runescape has beaten GW2 in terms of player numbers and activity.

GW2 should keep trying with ppl that tend to don't like Wow, instead of competing with child's gamers attention.

[Tanuki.4603]

I think the cash shop argument you guys make in favor of GW2 is either misinfored or concious fact manipulation.

WoW literally has 100x more cosmetics available for you to obtain in game. Literally 100 times the amount. 

They literally just added hundreds of cosmetics to obtain in game in one patch.

GW2 gets 1 new cosmetic in cash shop for you to buy with dollars every 2 weeks. The only cosmetics you can obtain in game is most of the time a single cosmetic for a meta achievement.

 

The way this game monetizes, and how its cash shop works has big downsides as well. We don't get nice things for playing the game.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Tanuki.4603

[Puck.3697]

5 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

Adding power with one progression system, then adding a new progression system to increase power further, and then another, and so on is vertical progression even if each individual system increases power only once. Vertical progression does not have to come from a single ongoing source to be VP.  What matters is not that a single system only progressed vertically once but rather that characters are continuing to progress vertically

But it does have to have systems which directly progress and it doesn't. 

It has power creep. 

It's in the name

Vertically. Progressive. Continously moving forward, vertically. Higher. Very simple very easy. 

You don't progress anything. Litterally. How csn u use the word "progression" at all? Tbe jade bot is a buy one never look at again lol. 

And no. A character can't vertically progress lol. If this was the case class buffs during patchs would be vertical progression. A character can be power crept. Vertical progression is a system. 

I advise giving WoW a go. I think you will learn alot whst vertical progression really is. A expansion causing power creep for the sake of encouraging sales, isnt vertical progression. 

No system introduced by a expansion, requires progression. Lol, its just a starting flat line through every expansion.

 

The jade bot never got stronger.

Legendary gear never got any stronger. 

Gear level never got stronger. 

Power Creep is caused by several factors. 

1) elite speccs introduction

2) boons became 100% uptime. 

3) alacrity introduction

4) continous buffs. 

What didn't cause vertical progression or power creep was the added 4k hp that happened once 8 years into the game lol. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Splat.7981 said:

t's true, WoW had it's prime many years ago, it should be concerning to players in MMORPG's like GW2 and others as to why WoW is still one of the most played games of it's even when it's prime has passed alongside FF14

Simple:

WoW dropped when expectations were lower. If a game dropped, identically to WoW vanilla orginally did the game would flop today, players would critise server stability, class balance, overpowered racials and more. 

New mmorpgs die before they're given the chance to reiterate as many times as WoW needed to. 

And thats because the standards higher, because everyone has decades old games and content to compare a brand new mmorpg to.

Mmorpgs are long investments. In alot of cases like WoW. Its the guilds, the friends, the characters that keep you in game more then the quality of the game itself. 

No mmorpg afrer WoW has gotten to popular long enough to recreate that. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Puck.3697

[Splat.7981]

1 hour ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

GW2 should keep trying with ppl that tend to don't like Wow, instead of competing with child's gamers attention.

For sure, because we know that video games are all about grown up stuff...