Why don't we have unique Character Models for Demons?

[Doggie.3184]

I was hoping to see some cool looking demon bros and a male version of whatever Peitha is for allies. Some sort of society/gathering since there's supposed to be ones who oppose the enemy and would join our side but it's pretty empty of that so far.

[merrua.7385]

Same with 

Spoiler

Peitha being one of the few humanoid models.

It gives the impress of sexy lady woman, and monstrous males. A cool male demon model would have helped with that.

Which usually GW2 is better at.

But maybe we will see more in the next bit.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

It definitely would have been nice to see a male demon in the Oneris armor with a unique face to parallel Peitha being female in that armor, or male / female demons in the outfit that was released with core SotO. I agree for sure there.

[draxynnic.3719]

19 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Peitha literally comments on how that area of  Nayos we are in is "copied from other worlds" and "Dramatic" So it's not just the demons, but their world they've yoinked from various realms.

I think you're assuming a degree of deliberation that probably isn't the case - they're probably not deliberately constructing Nayos by copying other worlds, it's just something that naturally happens because the Mists tend to copy things that exist elsewhere. It was a plot point with the Realm of Torment that Abaddon's forces were deliberately crafting parts of that realm to mirror locations in Tyria, but that's because they were looking to use the law of similarity to transplant those parts of the Realm of Torment into the part of Tyria they copied.

[Kalavier.1097]

3 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I think you're assuming a degree of deliberation that probably isn't the case - they're probably not deliberately constructing Nayos by copying other worlds, it's just something that naturally happens because the Mists tend to copy things that exist elsewhere. It was a plot point with the Realm of Torment that Abaddon's forces were deliberately crafting parts of that realm to mirror locations in Tyria, but that's because they were looking to use the law of similarity to transplant those parts of the Realm of Torment into the part of Tyria they copied.

I don't mean like literally copying it, but there is elements of mirroring and ending up similar. For Demon forms themselves or their landscapes, they naturally tend to form similar things.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

If you put a shader on many cryptis models that changes their colours, they would look like mordrem (guard). Others look like krait with parts missing. Or stuff from PoF with minor changes.

I was disappointed with the lack of new models. I did not realize that ANET is so cash strapped that they can't even create new unique models for an expac I paid a lot of hard earned money for.

Peitha also looks like something copied straight out of HoT btw. Isgarren is just a modded Djinn. Ramses is a headless Naga etc pp. 

It is sad. Really. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

If you put a shader on many cryptis models that changes their colours, they would look like mordrem (guard). Others look like krait with parts missing. Or stuff from PoF with minor changes.

I was disappointed with the lack of new models. I did not realize that ANET is so cash strapped that they can't even create new unique models for an expac I paid a lot of hard earned money for.

Peitha also looks like something copied straight out of HoT btw. Isgarren is just a modded Djinn. Ramses is a headless Naga etc pp. 

It is sad. Really. 

Those mordrem guard you claim to be unique used rigging from sylvari which shares rigging with humans with minor modifications. Other mordrem like teragriffs use the griffon / colocal rigging, while mordrem grunts use troll rigging.

Those kraits share rigging with risen wraiths, naga, branded forgotten, and others.

The Eye of Zhaitan uses Wind Rider rigging, like the Incarnation of Judgment kryptis.

Almost every rigging in the game has been used multiple times. Hell even Kralkatorrik uses the same rigging as skyscales, while adolescent Aurene uses griffon rigging. Some kryptis are the second creatures to use certain rigging - like the Avatar of Rage which uses Samarog's rigging, or Despair kryptis that uses that one Forged's rigging.

And this is true for EVERY SINGLE VIDEO GAME IN EXISTENCE.

These, however, are unique models - it's the rigging, the skeleton, that is shared, not the model.

It is not a matter of being "strapped for cash" but that it's a massive time and effort saver. ONLY IDIOTS REINVENT THE WHEEL EVERY TIME. Most game studios will share rigging between games and franchises they work on, and this even goes for cgi effects in cinemas. And the core game rarely had a singular unique rigging - the only ones off the top of my head would be Zhaitan and the Mouth of Zhaitan.

And even then - I've counted at least two kryptis that I'm pretty sure use unique rigging. The floating kryptis turrets and the Spinegazers.

 

The only Kryptis that are shared models with something before them would be Sorrow and Sorrow's Brood - which are just the model for Mordrem Wyvern and Wyvern Adolescent with a texture swap. Hell if it wasn't for the fact the target icon when selecting them reflected their new look, I'd even think it was just a post-processing effect like infusions it's that lazy of a texture swap.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

you misunderstood.

I know that rigging is shared and I do not care. But the effort to turn existing models into kryptis/demons feel very very weak compared to previous iterations.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

you misunderstood.

I know that rigging is shared and I do not care. But the effort to turn existing models into kryptis/demons feel very very weak compared to previous iterations.

Well as I said, other than Sorrow and Sorrow's Brood, all the models are new...

If you honestly think they took a mordrem guard to create the despair kryptis rather than creating the model from scratch, I'm extremely doubtful you've ever done 3d modeling. Outside of rigging and proportions there's practically no relation between the two despite your insistence.

[HotDelirium.7984]

Lore Reason-krytan herald said the allegedly formless demons absorb the essence of living creatures and that impacts their form and shape.

Business Reason-save time and money by reusing the same rigs on creatures you already created in-game.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 11/14/2023 at 4:20 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It definitely would have been nice to see a male demon in the Oneris armor with a unique face to parallel Peitha being female in that armor, or male / female demons in the outfit that was released with core SotO. I agree for sure there.

Maybe a form of dimorphism where the females are more small and pretty and the males more brutish? OR going off of kryptis lore so far maybe Peitha has mainly absorbed emotions and essences from female species and her brothers from male species? 

[nosleepdemon.1368]

Regarding most players not knowing and thus not caring, they might still fall into the same train of thought as I did. I didn't know the Kryptis used the same rigging as other creature types, but there WAS something familiar about them, which made them seem rather unspectacular and a bit boring. The Kryptis mobs are the least interesting part of the expansion, they are (with the exception of the higher beings) very cookie cutter. They could be replaced by any other creature and I wouldn't care. Now I know why, and it is a bit of a let down.

Edited November 20, 2023 by nosleepdemon.1368

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, nosleepdemon.1368 said:

Regarding most players not knowing and thus not caring, they might still fall into the same train of thought as I did. I didn't know the Kryptis used the same rigging as other creature types, but there WAS something familiar about them, which made them seem rather unspectacular and a bit boring. The Kryptis mobs are the least interesting part of the expansion, they are (with the exception of the higher beings) very cookie cutter. They could be replaced by any other creature and I wouldn't care. Now I know why, and it is a bit of a let down.

Legitimate question: did you feel the same way about the various dragon minions? And I don't mean the dragonvoid stuff from EoD - I mean the destroyers, icebrood, branded, mordrem, and risen.

Because every single one of them share rigging with other NPCs in the game, even the more unique looking ones like Mordrem Teragriffs (it's just a Colocal, you see dozens of them in Harathi Hinterlands, they just use non-mount griffon rigging).

Do you feel the same way about the Mushroom enemies? Or the small chak? Because they too reuse rigging.

[Omega.6801]

RL answer: It's cheaper and not uncommon in gaming combined with the current design team not being the same team that did the demons for Bastion of the Penitent.
IG answer: I doubt we have one. I take it as either, as others have stated, there being different types of demons and the higher ups just looking different from the rank and file; or something like, the more powerful a demno gets the more they become distinct in appearance.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

i don't think its the re-used rigging that makes them feel "samey", i think its how they're all textured with absolutely no color variation. all the tengu in cantha just being copies of tyria tengu with some modified faces wasn't anywhere near as noticeable because they were very detailed and colorful.

 

similarly, you can clearly tell a tyrian, an elonian and a canthan human apart, and tell them apart from the norn.

 

with the kryptis, they all just look exactly the same. the artists went way too hard into using a consistent look on them instead of mixing it up, and i doubt they're going to go back and fix that now. its strange because nayos itself is very colorful and beautiful, especially around the water areas.

Edited November 25, 2023 by SoftFootpaws.9134

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

19 minutes ago, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i don't think its the re-used rigging that makes them feel "samey", i think its how they're all textured with absolutely no color variation. all the tengu in cantha just being copies of tyria tengu with some modified faces wasn't anywhere near as noticeable because they were very detailed and colorful.

 

similarly, you can clearly tell a tyrian, an elonian and a canthan human apart, and tell them apart from the norn.

 

with the kryptis, they all just look exactly the same. the artists went way too hard into using a consistent look on them instead of mixing it up, and i doubt they're going to go back and fix that now. its strange because nayos itself is very colorful and beautiful, especially around the water areas.

Honestly I think this is the issue. People just focus on the rigging / animations to whine about but if there is a "samey issue" with the kryptis it'd be how similar they look to each other, and why Cerus, Peitha, and Heitor stick out more, but not really to each other.

Even among the icebrood, mordrem, etc. there was variation in color and design.

[ugrakarma.9416]

We haven't had new models since LS2, very few exceptions.

The issue is that there is an overuse of models from the "insectoids" group due to most dragon minions utilize that group. We can divide the model groups in 3: insects like creatures(insectoids), vertebrates like creatures("monsters group"), and humanoids.

I believe that Anet tries to balance, and there was some calculation error. In Eod there was a prevalence of humanoids until the introduction of "void creatures" (most insectoid group again). So they forget about this and had thought bring back insectoid models was a good choice.

To make things worse, most popular metas(except of Drizzlewood), we are fighting insects/monsters models, like silverwastes.

Edited November 25, 2023 by ugrakarma.9416

[Serephen.3420]

On 11/13/2023 at 2:53 AM, Jaken.6801 said:

My personal grief is, that we not only see barely any other kryptis on "our side", but the ones we see are also the same models we already see all the time.

It would have been nice, if we would have seen at least some kind of village, or place that Peitra reigns. That we entered her part of the realm first, before jumping head first into a frontline away from everything.

The whole thing feels so feeble. I don't even know what our goal is on the first map. Okay that's not true. Since this is the last map, this will be our Dragon Stand/Gyala Delve/Charr Civil war/etc., which means the push to Eparch is the story of this map. One frontline, after the next. We won't get a real feel of how this place looks or feels. Same for it's inhabitants.

Honestly that is what I was first expecting, I also expected it to be all stealthy and such for some reason. Ah well

[Serephen.3420]

On 11/13/2023 at 4:12 PM, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

Heck GW1 had monsters using most of the same abilities/classes as players too. 

I kinda liked that and wish they did it here too😂

Edited November 26, 2023 by Serephen.3420
Sorry typo

[Eekasqueak.7850]

24 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I kinda liked that and wish they dod it here too😂

It makes sense for more humanoid enemies but felt lazy outside of that imo. 

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 11/25/2023 at 12:05 PM, SoftFootpaws.9134 said:

i don't think its the re-used rigging that makes them feel "samey", i think its how they're all textured with absolutely no color variation. all the tengu in cantha just being copies of tyria tengu with some modified faces wasn't anywhere near as noticeable because they were very detailed and colorful.

 

similarly, you can clearly tell a tyrian, an elonian and a canthan human apart, and tell them apart from the norn.

 

with the kryptis, they all just look exactly the same. the artists went way too hard into using a consistent look on them instead of mixing it up, and i doubt they're going to go back and fix that now. its strange because nayos itself is very colorful and beautiful, especially around the water areas.

while i think they should keep a similar aesthetic I do think the exact same texture/color on each does make them all feel lost together in one big clump. Some color variation even just a little would be nice and stand out from each other.

[HotDelirium.7984]

On 11/25/2023 at 1:36 PM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

We haven't had new models since LS2, very few exceptions.

The issue is that there is an overuse of models from the "insectoids" group due to most dragon minions utilize that group. We can divide the model groups in 3: insects like creatures(insectoids), vertebrates like creatures("monsters group"), and humanoids.

I believe that Anet tries to balance, and there was some calculation error. In Eod there was a prevalence of humanoids until the introduction of "void creatures" (most insectoid group again). So they forget about this and had thought bring back insectoid models was a good choice.

To make things worse, most popular metas(except of Drizzlewood), we are fighting insects/monsters models, like silverwastes.

are they so resource-strapped they have to summon raid monster rigs to be enemies now?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, HotDelirium.7984 said:

are they so resource-strapped they have to summon raid monster rigs to be enemies now?

No, ugrakarma is just blowing smoke out his kitten. The claim that they've not had any new models since LS2 is outright false, as even being generous and assuming they meant rigging not models, HoT, LWS3, PoF, LWS4, and IBS all added several new rigging each. And that's not counting one-off NPCs like Mordremoth or Jormag. And with taking ugrakarma's claim at literal face value of "model", there's been hundreds of new models - only things that weren't would be things like the Eater of Souls (both versions), Dragonvoid enemies, and Sorrow from the latest patch.

[Lord Korag.8439]

Well, we all agree the recycling of rigging and models saves resources and time. That is the practical and economical reason.

However, it is also very well incorporated into the lore:

Pietha herself stated sometime overlooking Nayos that the demons have copied everything from other worlds. It was comment for the architecture, yet Kryptis use others for inspiration. They dream of others. They tend to take shape of already existing beings. Which can be a very good excuse to use rigging of creatures from Tyria.

Same excuse can be very well used for the Elder Dragons. The corrupted minions are clear, the origin of the corrupted specimen remains the same and so does the rigging. As for the created minions (Primordus´s favourite, however every Elder Dragon [excluding Soo-Won] has created some specific minions), well, even the Elder Dragons have to take inspiration somewhere, so they mimick creatures they like and use that shape.

[Phyb.6704]

On 11/12/2023 at 9:15 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Probably the same reason why Razah was nearly human-like, while most Stygian demons in GW1 looked like inside-out copies of Tyrian animals like centaurs or ntouka birds. To quote Razah's entry in the manual:

The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

So it's likely that some kryptis are just humanoid by pure chance and Eparch decided to make these the noble house leaders. Or by becoming more powerful, kryptis bodies reshape and become more... connected.

Peitha's dialogue also implies that they're all biologically related, since Cerus, Deimos, and Peitha were siblings, and Heitor is Peitha's cousin (and mate of Cerus? :eyes:). So that might have something to do with it too.

We also have the problem of the god realms being in the mists and we know that the realm of torment is one of them. I would expect this realm comes into play. This could be the "template".