Why did Orr lose to the Charr

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

Titans were made by a servant of Dhuum if I remember correctly given into the service of Abaddon. There's never any proof that Titans have any amount of God power.

Pretty sure Kavalier was being facetious because of Slowpokeking's constant claim that Orrians were using god power because they happened to be religious.

Neither group were using the gods' power.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Pretty sure Kavalier was being facetious because of Slowpokeking's constant claim that Orrians were using god power because they happened to be religious.

Neither group were using the gods' power.

This. If he is going to constantly say Orr has this unheard of power boost because "GOD MAGIC" then we can easily use the same thing for Charr, as their big magical buff came from titans who serve fallen gods. Just being a bit silly.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/19/2023 at 7:27 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Nobody stopped the war. Orrians were still at odds with Ascalonians and Krytans, they just put efforts into defending against Charr. There was no sudden alliance because of a new foe unified the three kingdoms like you'd get in GW2 storytelling.

This is the equivalent of "coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn't" in all honesty.

Maybe if the Orrians didn't pull back and focused solely on defense believing themselves capable of holding back the charr, and instead performed guerrilla tactics on the charr raiding party, they could have won... but since they didn't, we have no clue if they would have.

So according to you, charr use god magic too, because they use the same skills of the same name that 'proved it'.

Gotcha.

Again, you're talking about events in 1072 AE and comparing them to the state of things in 1070 AE immediately after the Searing.

Again, "coulda, woulda, shoulda, didn't."

Charr are absolutely physically stronger than humans, and Orrians were worn out from fighting for about a century with Kryta and Ascalon on top of having the have a hasty retreat to beat the charr marching on their doorstep and prepare. They got overconfident and they got surprised.

And who says "they didn't lose much in the Guild Wars". In fact, because of Orr's involvement, the Third Guild War was stated to be the bloodiest of the three.

"But Ascalon and Kryta brought their war to the nation. Orr rose to defend itself, escalating the conflict and resulting in casualties that eclipsed those of the previous two Guild Wars combined."

And I highly doubt that line means that Orr had few casualties - if Orr had decimated Kryta and Ascalon to the point of forcing casualties worse than both previous wars combined, Orr would have won well before the Searing took place. It was heavy losses on all three kingdoms - losses that the charr didn't incur because they blitzkrieged Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr.

 

 

Stop ignoring the lore, Orr didn't get much from fighting.

Quote

At first, Orr was saved from much of the fighting. The guilds with allegiances to Ascalon and Kryta withdrew, heading back to defend their homes.

Yeah so Orrians are idiots, not knowing to use their magic and all the advantages right?

The charr never showed much about breaking through without the Searing magic, even Saul's ppl could hold for a while, and 3 Murssat were able to slaughter their army.

Again we've been over this, you are using GW1 as the example, which has very limited skill and class. Beside that we also saw them saying lend strength, the priest also said the power came from the gods. We've been over this.

Yeah, charr are stronger than humans, they couldn't even take down Ascalon for decades after the Searing and got beaten by3 Mursaat.

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:18 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

This. If he is going to constantly say Orr has this unheard of power boost because "GOD MAGIC" then we can easily use the same thing for Charr, as their big magical buff came from titans who serve fallen gods. Just being a bit silly.

The Charr didn't use the Searing, and we knew they are far less powerful than the Murssat.

Wut? You are again denying the boost of the Source, which even Zhaitan needed to to corrupt Orr and the Cleanse ritual could spread all over Orr?

Seriously why are you keep denying fact?

[Kalavier.1097]

2 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The charr never showed much about breaking through without the Searing magic, even Saul's ppl could hold for a while, and 3 Murssat were able to slaughter their army.

Yeah, charr are stronger than humans, they couldn't even take down Ascalon for decades after the Searing and got beaten by3 Mursaat.

 

Saul's people didn't hold for a while, The White Mantle went on an offensive assassination strike. The Mursaat are beyond anything Orr had available in it's army. Also Spectral Agony. 

Almost as if Ascalonians are defensive siege experts who stayed within their walls and never   did large open fights against the Charr. 

1 minute ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

The Charr didn't use the Searing, and we knew they are far less powerful than the Murssat.

Wut? You are again denying the boost of the Source, which even Zhaitan needed to to corrupt Orr and the Cleanse ritual could spread all over Orr?

Seriously why are you keep denying fact?

Because you have yet to actually provide any fact that the Source of Orr can purposefully be used to boost spellcasters, or has any boosting effects on magic users.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

1 minute ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Saul's people didn't hold for a while, The White Mantle went on an offensive assassination strike. The Mursaat are beyond anything Orr had available in it's army. Also Spectral Agony. 

Almost as if Ascalonians are defensive siege experts who stayed within their walls and never   did large open fights against the Charr. 

Because you have yet to actually provide any fact that the Source of Orr can purposefully be used to boost spellcasters, or has any boosting effects on magic users.

Then they held against their attack, and asked for Mursaat to help when they couldn't hold anymore.

Are you saying that the Mursaat>the Six Gods' power?

And Orrians are expert magic, with the god's bless, they also had the best landscape among the 3, time to prepare, saved much from the fighting, didn't get Searing.
 

DID you even play the game????

Trahearne, the cleanse spell was able to spread ALL OVER Orr to go against Zhaitan's corruption, this is SOLID proof of it could boost up magic hugely. And Zhaitan's corruption also spread over it. THIS proved the Source can be used to greatly amplify the caster's magic's power, effect and range in Orr.

 

 

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/20/2023 at 5:29 AM, Narcemus.1348 said:

I didn't post that as an actual disbelief that humans could survive in such a situation, humans find a way in some of the harshest environments we've ever seen. I was merely trying to point out Ascalon's severely weakened state after the Searing. Perhaps the last sentence about finding Ascalon's survivability less believable than the Charr taking out Orr was unnecessary. It was meant more in jest than anything else.

Titans were made by a servant of Dhuum if I remember correctly given into the service of Abaddon. There's never any proof that Titans have any amount of God power. 

I forgot what it was like to be argued with by someone whose Fanon is something they refuse to give up on even when it is directly refuted time and time again. Not worth my time, lol.

Everything I gave was based on canon, especially the magic all have proof, and the situation of Orr was stated over and over again.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Stop ignoring the lore, Orr didn't get much from fighting.

Quote

At first, Orr was saved from much of the fighting. The guilds with allegiances to Ascalon and Kryta withdrew, heading back to defend their homes.

Read what you wrote.

At first, Orr was saved from much of the fighting.

Meaning they did have plenty of fighting, just not at the start of the Third Guild War. Which follows exactly the source I referenced.

Prepositional phrases are important.

[Ishmael.6740]

I don't think the lore is entirely clear on how they did it. The Orrians were prepared, knew the charr army would come and still lost in a matter of hours, ending up beaten back to their capital.

Happens all the time, two armies meet, neither of them obviously weaker than the other and for a multitude of reasons one of them loses, the other presses the advantage and routes their enemy. Doesn't need to have some more intricate explanation than "Charr and Orr armies fought, Orr lost." That is literally it. There was no secret technique or divine intervention or great power that we know of that played into it. The charr army just happened to be better at fighting in this particular match-up.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Ishmael.6740

[Kalavier.1097]

11 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Then they held against their attack, and asked for Mursaat to help when they couldn't hold anymore.

Are you saying that the Mursaat>the Six Gods' power?

And Orrians are expert magic, with the god's bless, they also had the best landscape among the 3, time to prepare, saved much from the fighting, didn't get Searing.
 

DID you even play the game????

Trahearne, the cleanse spell was able to spread ALL OVER Orr to go against Zhaitan's corruption, this is SOLID proof of it could boost up magic hugely. And Zhaitan's corruption also spread over it. THIS proved the Source can be used to greatly amplify the caster's magic's power, effect and range in Orr.

Considering how the FIVE (not six) gods were not involved in defending Orr in any way, yes in this case the Mursaat are more powerful then any human priest.

Good landscape means nothing without defensive structures.

Did you play the game? Trahearne cast a cleansing ritual and that was noted it'd take quite some time to actually spread out across Orr. Even in Sirens Landing the corruption of Zhaitan is present and strong, many years later. Quite literally says the opposite of what you want to imply, that people can use it to buff themselves up going into battle. As the ritual left Trahearne drained.

7 hours ago, Ishmael.6740 said:

I don't think the lore is entirely clear on how they did it. The Orrians were prepared, knew the charr army would come and still lost in a matter of hours, ending up beaten back to their capital.

Happens all the time, two armies meet, neither of them obviously weaker than the other and for a multitude of reasons one of them loses, the other presses the advantage and routes their enemy. Doesn't need to have some more intricate explanation than "Charr and Orr armies fought, Orr lost." That is literally it. There was no secret technique or divine intervention or great power that we know of that played into it. The charr army just happened to be better at fighting in this particular match-up.

He doesn't like actually discussing things like morale, tactics, maybe wrong preparations (used to and prepared to fight humans, Charr don't fight like humans, formation fails, etc). In his mind, Orr is an unstoppable super-power and it makes no sense that Orr could possibly lose.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:11 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Read what you wrote.

At first, Orr was saved from much of the fighting.

Meaning they did have plenty of fighting, just not at the start of the Third Guild War. Which follows exactly the source I referenced.

Prepositional phrases are important.

 

Quote

At first, Orr was saved from much of the fighting. The guilds with allegiances to Ascalon and Kryta withdrew, heading back to defend their homes. Orr regrouped, granted a moment to prepare simply because they were farther south. The Charr had to make their way through Ascalon before they could reach the gates of Arah. But eventually Ascalon fell, and the Charr arrived in Orr.

Obviously it was talking about the end of the Guild Wars and they had time to regroup to defend against the charr.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:08 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Considering how the FIVE (not six) gods were not involved in defending Orr in any way, yes in this case the Mursaat are more powerful then any human priest.

Good landscape means nothing without defensive structures.

Did you play the game? Trahearne cast a cleansing ritual and that was noted it'd take quite some time to actually spread out across Orr. Even in Sirens Landing the corruption of Zhaitan is present and strong, many years later. Quite literally says the opposite of what you want to imply, that people can use it to buff themselves up going into battle. As the ritual left Trahearne drained.

 

Their power were given to their priests, and they got the Source to amplify it, and they have big numbers of casters+army.

So Orrians were idiots, they got time but never knew to use their landscape, never knew to use their magic. Never tried to take advantage of the charr? Are you making your fanon again?

It immediately cleansed the room, took time to spread to the entire Orr. Remember Zhaitan had corrupted Orr for 100 years, only like 3 years later significant changes were seen. Obviously the power is very strong, able to cleanse a Elder Dragon's corruption over 100 years in short time.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Slowpokeking.8720

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:29 PM, Ishmael.6740 said:

I don't think the lore is entirely clear on how they did it. The Orrians were prepared, knew the charr army would come and still lost in a matter of hours, ending up beaten back to their capital.

Happens all the time, two armies meet, neither of them obviously weaker than the other and for a multitude of reasons one of them loses, the other presses the advantage and routes their enemy. Doesn't need to have some more intricate explanation than "Charr and Orr armies fought, Orr lost." That is literally it. There was no secret technique or divine intervention or great power that we know of that played into it. The charr army just happened to be better at fighting in this particular match-up.

If the charr were that good, they would not have been beaten badly in Kryta and couldn't take down Ascalon for decades after the Searing.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

 

Obviously it was talking about the end of the Guild Wars and they had time to regroup to defend against the charr.

So then why were you quoting that line to talk about Orrian casualties throughout the entire Third Guild War?

Now you're saying your own claims are unfounded. You are literally disagreeing with yourself.

Edited December 24, 2023 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Ishmael.6740]

7 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

If the charr were that good, they would not have been beaten badly in Kryta and couldn't take down Ascalon for decades after the Searing.

Except they canonically are that good, because they kicked Orrs butt.

 

It's also not really an indicator how they fared in other nations. Kryta and Ascalon are not Orr. The charr armies in those nations were not the charr army that conquered Orr. Maybe they had better commanders, more people, better equipment or a multitude of other factors that influenced the outcome. 

 

We don't know, it doesn't matter, we know the charr easily defeated Orr. 

Edited December 24, 2023 by Ishmael.6740

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Ishmael.6740 said:

Except they canonically are that good, because they kicked Orrs butt.

 

It's also not really an indicator how they fared in other nations. Kryta and Ascalon are not Orr. The charr armies in those nations were not the charr army that conquered Orr. Maybe they had better commanders, more people, better equipment or a multitude of other factors that influenced the outcome. 

 

We don't know, it doesn't matter, we know the charr easily defeated Orr. 

Considering we know in Gw2 they had a few searing cauldrons (Kryta did not) It's quite obvious the best Charr force was sent to Orr, to bring down the city/nation of the gods with searing rituals.

[Ishmael.6740]

That also makes narrative sense, the shaman found new gods, they wanted to prove those gods even greater than the five human gods. Arah was their seat of power.

 

I believe it's reasonable to assume the charr would send the bulk of their army to Orr, another force to Kryta and leave only a token garrison in Ascalon, which was already on it's knees after the Searing. 

Edited December 25, 2023 by Ishmael.6740

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Ishmael.6740 said:

That also makes narrative sense, the shaman found new gods, they wanted to prove those gods even greater than the five human gods. Arah was their seat of power.

 

I believe it's reasonable to assume the charr would send the bulk of their army to Orr, another force to Kryta and leave only a token garrison in Ascalon, which was already on it's knees after the Searing. 

And or the Titans specifically told them to, as part of Abaddon/Dhuum's plans.

It would also be reasonable to assume that Orr expected the Charr to evenly split their forces between the three nations, vs sending a small force to Kryta, and the majority to Orr. This would account for them losing after 12 hours of brutal fighting.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/23/2023 at 10:27 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So then why were you quoting that line to talk about Orrian casualties throughout the entire Third Guild War?

Now you're saying your own claims are unfounded. You are literally disagreeing with yourself.

It was saved from much of the fighting.

Logically, the war was mainly between Ascalon and Kryta, Orr was trying to save itself from self defense and end the war, it should have the least casualties .

[Slowpokeking.8720]

 

On 12/24/2023 at 3:42 AM, Ishmael.6740 said:

Except they canonically are that good, because they kicked Orrs butt.

 

It's also not really an indicator how they fared in other nations. Kryta and Ascalon are not Orr. The charr armies in those nations were not the charr army that conquered Orr. Maybe they had better commanders, more people, better equipment or a multitude of other factors that influenced the outcome. 

 

We don't know, it doesn't matter, we know the charr easily defeated Orr. 

And they failed to kick Ascalon and Kryta.

It is, Orr is the one with the most advantage, prepare time and the most powerful magic. The charr had to go across Ascalon first, and they failed to conquer Ascalon.

And we already talked before, it is not a good idea to send your bulk army SUCH A LONG WAY without conquer and make any settlement, it would put your supply in huge risk. Especially Orr has the power of Lyssa, which makes them easy to get behind or even into the army and cut off your supply or even cause further damage.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/24/2023 at 4:51 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Considering we know in Gw2 they had a few searing cauldrons (Kryta did not) It's quite obvious the best Charr force was sent to Orr, to bring down the city/nation of the gods with searing rituals.

Again you were wrong.

1. The char didn't use Searing on Orr. 

2. There was only one cauldron sent to Orr as we knew.

All the charr force went through Ascalon, if they were that good, they should have swiped Ascalon first to ensure the backline is safe.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

On 12/24/2023 at 11:14 PM, Ishmael.6740 said:

That also makes narrative sense, the shaman found new gods, they wanted to prove those gods even greater than the five human gods. Arah was their seat of power.

 

I believe it's reasonable to assume the charr would send the bulk of their army to Orr, another force to Kryta and leave only a token garrison in Ascalon, which was already on it's knees after the Searing. 

Again we have talked this before.

They couldn't even fully conquer Ascalon, why would any commander be stupid enough to send their army to a nation far away, across the mountain and desert?

Without even their backline cleared, Orr just need to send some mesmers and cut off their backline=dead army. We've seen in GW2 that even with the Pact's magic defense, Risen Mesmer could easily play trick. And we also played the same thing against Joko's army.

[Ishmael.6740]

54 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And they failed to kick Ascalon and Kryta.

Ascalon is firmly under Charr control by GW2. They kicked it down with the searing. Ascalon wasn't a threat after that. I played GW1, it was utterly destroyed and it's remnants ran away to Kryta. I know that, I was with them. Ascalon was in no way able to threaten the Charr when they marched towards Orr.

 

54 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It is, Orr is the one with the most advantage, prepare time and the most powerful magic. The charr had to go across Ascalon first, and they failed to conquer Ascalon.

They didn't need to "conquer" it by then, because they blew it to pieces. Ascalon as a kingdom was gone. The mopping up and resettling the land could wait until the other human kingdoms were dealt with.

 

54 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

And we already talked before, it is not a good idea to send your bulk army SUCH A LONG WAY without conquer and make any settlement, it would put your supply in huge risk. Especially Orr has the power of Lyssa, which makes them easy to get behind or even into the army and cut off your supply or even cause further damage.

If it's such a bad idea, why did it work so well? You are just spewing a bunch of hypothetical things while ignoring what actually canoncially happened.

 

46 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

They couldn't even fully conquer Ascalon, why would any commander be stupid enough to send their army to a nation far away, across the mountain and desert?

Again, you misunderstand the reason Ascalon wasn't "fully conquered" - Not because it was impossible or hard to do, but because it was completely unnecessary. Ascalon was beaten and dying.

 

46 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Without even their backline cleared, Orr just need to send some mesmers and cut off their backline=dead army. We've seen in GW2 that even with the Pact's magic defense, Risen Mesmer could easily play trick. And we also played the same thing against Joko's army.

Could've, should've, would've - They didn't and they lost.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Ishmael.6740

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It was saved from much of the fighting.

Logically, the war was mainly between Ascalon and Kryta, Orr was trying to save itself from self defense and end the war, it should have the least casualties .

....So now you're going back to the claim that the quote was about the war between Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta. When you just said it was actually about Orr and the charr.

 

Make up your mind, it isn't both - in fact, it's very clearly set up to be about Orr and the charr. There is literally nothing that says Orr fought defensively against Ascalon or Kryta. In fact, this short story is about Orrian forces assaulting Khylo, a city in Ascalon. So yeah, Orrians weren't playing defensively only in the Third Guild War - not that such would be a method to end the war quickly, as you've previously claimed (without evidence) that they were trying to do. "Logically", the war was between Ascalon, Kryta, and Orr. Orr was full out sending forces into Ascalon and the death of Mordakai is proof of it.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Again we have talked this before.

They couldn't even fully conquer Ascalon, why would any commander be stupid enough to send their army to a nation far away, across the mountain and desert?

Scorch Emberspire: "The Charr have always found strength in the flames. When the Titans appeared before our people in a towering inferno, we knew that surely these must be our gods."

Scorch Emberspire: "Through our gods our people found a purpose, one that bound us together and drove us onto a path of conquest."

Scorch Emberspire: "Following signs from the gods, we cut a swath of destruction into the lands of men. Victory was our birthright. Fire and steel became the hands with which we would grasp it."

Scorch Emberspire: "Always toward Arah, where the gods once lived. All that awaited us there was death. What sort of god would lead its people to destruction?"

Why would any commander be stupid enough to send their army to a nation far away, across the mountains and desert, when there is an enemy nation in the way?

Because divine providence.

The same kind of reason why people were stupid enough to allow a civilian army to match across Europe and into Turkey during the First Crusade.

Was it an intelligent move by the charr? Not really. But it was a command by the Titans - by Abaddon - so as to nuke Arah with Searing Cauldrons. Their goal wasn't occupation as you seem to insist - it was destruction. Run in, nuke the place, and leave.

4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Without even their backline cleared, Orr just need to send some mesmers and cut off their backline=dead army. We've seen in GW2 that even with the Pact's magic defense, Risen Mesmer could easily play trick. And we also played the same thing against Joko's army.

Most of these mesmers you reference weren't alive during 1071 AE. They are undead, after all - risen from the graves, not the open ground. The militant mesmers that were alive in 1071 AE joined Khilbron's army, and they were not capable of illusion casting.

And no, that's not what the Commander did against Joko's army - it was an illusion to assassinate a single individual and trick three others, not wipe out an army from behind. Plus, it should be stressed that the teachings of mesmerism has changed in the past 250 years. In GW2's era, most mesmers focus on creating illusions and phantasms, but in GW1 the focus was on mental domination (which has been unofficially outlawed by the Mesmer Collective in GW2's era). Hence why GW1's undead mesmers were not capable of casting illusions like risen mesmers, not all of which were actually Orrians in life, were.

[Trejgon.9367]

I am somewhat amazed this wreck of the thread is still going on.

Not sure what to think about OP doing "do you even read the lore" and "do you even know anything about warfare" while responding to direct quotes from the lore (and denying them), and trying to apply modern warfare concepts to medieval fantasy setting.

The claim that artesian waters are some sort of passive supercharger to all mages in the area is funny. Especially claiming that GW2 somehow proves it. All it proves, is that it is magical ecocenter of the orr, and that zhaitan was using it to (slowly) spread his corruption. Cleansing of the artesian waters, something that took a whole ritual and best of the pact to perform, only managed to cut off zhaitan from food source as immediate result.

And that is even without taking into consideration if orrian were aware of that particular spring being magical nexus that it was. Early lore after all ascribes all that GW2 said was due to artesian waters, to god's blessing the area. That implies to me that Orrians were not exactly aware where the magic all around them is coming from.

Furthermore, assumption that Orr had all the time to regroup - in the times where you have military spread among fighting two other kingdoms, any sort of messaging goes through letters carried by people, even sending out the orders for regroup is going to take long time, and before those troops actually get to withdraw and regroup it is going to take time as well.

For the whole supply lines argument - Mongol horde was already mentioned, and I'd say that there was alot of inspiration for charr in there. And history of Mongol horde conquest, and raids into europe shows that it is very well possible to have a medievalistic army without setting up huge supply lines for it to wreck other kingdom armies.

And even discounting Mongolian horde, since op already ignored that one, I shall bring another historical precedence - Second Punic war. Hannibal was able to get into Roman territory, then stay in there and ravage it for full year with NO supply lines to mention (army living off from what they looted essentially). And that army with no supply lines which you proclaim should be "dead army" (since it was for all intents and purposes cut off from it's mainland) and yet to get rid of them, Roman had to invade Carthage so the Hanibals army get recalled to defend, to get rid of the buggers.

So to sum it up. OP has partial knowledge on both irl warfare history, and Tyria's lore, extrapolates from it incorrect assertions and then proclaims how lore makes no sense, while discarding any attempt of straightening out his misunderstandings.

And props to everyone in this thread for lasting for 9 pages of trying to "discuss" this topic.