Expanded Weapon Proficiencies Beta Feedback: Thief

[SoftPup.3048]

I wish A/D was the power set because you only get half the power bonus from Dagger Training by using pistol.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

As a mesmer main I quite like it, it's a budget shatter mesmer. Plus ~15k each "shatter" is good.
On the negative side is initiative intensive, so I would reduce the A/P3  to 4 initiative and up the speed of the returned axes a little bit.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

33 minutes ago, SoftPup.3048 said:

I wish A/D was the power set because you only get half the power bonus from Dagger Training by using pistol.

traits that boost damage or effects while using weapons is a bad game design

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

for the amount of reflect hate, block spam, evade spam, boon spam, cleanse spam per class, why the ever loving Skritts-kitten do they keep throwing more projectiles? this meta is all about boons and its getting absurd

[chuckwest.1542]

Couple of notes. ( from an axe / pistol pvp perspective )

As mentioned before, the tracking is slow and painful. Reminiscent of the original Necro Staff auto cast. Simple strafing and the auto attack can be avoided.

I would assume that having the axes take on the skinned weapon is in the works, but from a pvp perspective having a giant spinny animation only reveals your attack more.

For me, the idea has quite a bit of intrigue. A cross between traps and mesmer. You can pre-load your dps before engaging, stealth, sneak attack, and take a huge chuck of health out of opponents in pvp. As someone stated before, it's essentially an 1,800 range. Pretty wild in pvp.

Being able to hit around corners is great, and I'd argue that it's a new mechanic for people to contend with in pvp...except is quite possibly broken beyond belief. If it were to help attack pillar humpers by hitting them at angles, that sounds fair. Being able to stand off point, down stairs, and do heavy damage...bit of a grey area but feels guilty. Being able to stand on the other side of a wall, and damage people ...broken.  Skyhammer, you can stand on the behind the walls on A & C ( the ones you  shadow step through ) and cast the 3 skill through them.

Overall, I see a lot of potential to be annoying in pvp. Not meta, but an annoying wasp that stings hurt.

 

[Robotmoxie.4025]

So, I'm having a heck of a lot of fun with this thing. Doesn't mean it's by any means perfect, but check out what I've got going:

I set myself up as Deadeye, with Critical Strikes and Trickery as my other lines. I'm using Axe/Pistol and the Midnight King relic, which turns Pistol 4 into a funny button.

• Critical Strikes: 1, 2, 1
• Trickery: 3, 2, 2
• Deadeye: 1, 2, 3

If I start combat by marking my target, then hit Axe 2 twice, I'm at max Malice and max Axes. My next Steal Time is going to give me Might, Fury, and Quickness, and allow me to toss an axe that refunds 2 Initiative. So I go ahead and get my initiative back, and chase it with Axe 3, converging six axes on my target. This loops nicely, and I can weave in a Head Shot, proccing the relic for some free Might and extended Fury.

On utilities, I'm running Withdraw, Haste, Signet of Agility, Assassin's Signet, and Thieves Guild. I'm honestly not sure if I'd need the crit signet if I had ascended gear and some precision infusions on hand, but I don't. At the moment, it gets me to 100% crit, so I'm happy. In the future, I may be able to free up a utility slot.

The big fun of what I'm running is fairly familiar- with Deadeye's "Payback" trait, the cooldown of Thieves Guild can decline so rapidly that you can actually beat the 24 second duration on the skill itself, if you're in a mob-rich environment. This makes what I'm running an absolute delight in open world, especially maps like the Silverwastes, where I enjoy doing much of my beta testing. Quickly set up, secure the kill with Axe 3, and the cooldown drops by 20%. Five kills to reset it entirely, and that comes quick.

Looking at it now, you may get more mileage out of dumping Sleight of Hand (I like the Mark cooldown reduction for longer fights) and taking Quick Pockets instead, running with a second pistol and maybe an Energy sigil, so that you get a free dodge in addition to the free initiative, which is always nice, and can smooth out the rotation even more than the easy-access stealth attacks.

As I play, I'm sitting at permanent 25ish Might, permanent Fury, and fairly good Quickness uptime just roaming around by myself in zerker gear.

I don't think this is a perfect weapon- it has some pretty clear technical issues with regard to flight time and tracking, plus placeholder graphics and icons- I don't need to restate a lot of what's been said in this thread already. Actual thief mains- instead of a thief hobbyist like myself- have much more salient criticisms to make that should be taken in confidence and used to improve this weapon.

But it is fun. I'm having a blast. This is the kind of flashy, entertaining weapon design I'd love to see more- as long as it actually works.

[Flobings.7251]

Eh. A mid-range condi slanted weapon that feels a bit clunky. 

For PvE I doubt it will be chosen over scepter for condi dps & probably about equal other weapons for power (ranged cleave might be nice if you can get it all positioned correctly).

Doesn't seem like it will be used in sPvP because it is slow & will get shut down in WvW due to reflects. 

 

Really seems that the #1 should have a small aoe targeting reticle so you can place them as needed.

[draxynnic.3719]

8 hours ago, PaulPottwal.7239 said:

Aaahhh, just tested it on the golem and you are right. Sometimes it reveales you for no reason. Bug ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

From what I've heard, if you have an axe out that was originally from the stealth attack, it will reveal you when it hits after using skill 3. Haven't had the opportunity to verify it myself.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

I get the inspiration of this weapon skill from the LoL champion Xayah, but the implementation of the skills are clunky and simply doesn't feel right and definitely doesn't fit the Thief.

We already have an axe thrower in the game (Ranger) and that weapon set feels better due to the fact that the auto-attack attacks twice as fast, throws 5 axes in skill #2 instead of 3, and the skill #3 actually deals damage.

Thief's axe #3 does nothing by itself which makes it rather useless. It forces me to use skill #1 and #2 before I can use skill #3 -- what? The best thing about GW2's combat is it doesn't dictates how I play my profession and I'm sure the Devs won't start now -- right? Right?!

I'm not sure what's the purpose of the axe. What does it bring to the Thief that the profession doesn't already have?

Simply put, what value proposition is the axe offering that I would pick it over a Dagger or Scepter? IMO, nothing.

Suggestion: The next weapon that the Thief community is expecting is the Greatsword. I don't believe I've read someone in the Thief community ever suggested a throwing axe.

In any case, I hope you have enough time to scrap this idea and make the Greatsword Thief Ninja a reality.

Thanks for the beta.

 

[Anarchynow.2514]

On 11/28/2023 at 8:43 PM, Morena.9312 said:

I can only say.....BAD. PvE Weaponset only.

I usually only play pve it there it didn't feel much better. I agree with msot people here that is it not jsut underwhelming but also just not really fun. It would be better if the spinning axes stayed on target and started spinning there for small aoe damage forcing enemies to move away or keep being damaged. 

[Every day pon.5386]

Specter Scepter LoS pathing still bugged (& narrow), i swear on muh queen's slippers that there is an obstruction bug in WvW with high player count .. beside losing its own boon generation at range cast

[Za Shaloc.3908]

4 minutes ago, Every day pon.5386 said:

Specter Scepter LoS pathing still bugged (& narrow), i swear on muh queen's slippers that there is an obstruction bug in WvW with high player count .. beside losing its own boon generation at range cast

Yeah there is definitely a bug there. Haven't actually tested it to get a proper number, but it generally seems to occur when there are ~5 or more allies between you and your ally target. Really big bummer.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

21 hours ago, Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

I get the inspiration of this weapon skill from the LoL champion Xayah, but the implementation of the skills are clunky and simply doesn't feel right and definitely doesn't fit the Thief.

We already have an axe thrower in the game (Ranger) and that weapon set feels better due to the fact that the auto-attack attacks twice as fast, throws 5 axes in skill #2 instead of 3, and the skill #3 actually deals damage.

Thief's axe #3 does nothing by itself which makes it rather useless. It forces me to use skill #1 and #2 before I can use skill #3 -- what? The best thing about GW2's combat is it doesn't dictates how I play my profession and I'm sure the Devs won't start now -- right? Right?!

I'm not sure what's the purpose of the axe. What does it bring to the Thief that the profession doesn't already have?

Simply put, what value proposition is the axe offering that I would pick it over a Dagger or Scepter? IMO, nothing.

Suggestion: The next weapon that the Thief community is expecting is the Greatsword. I don't believe I've read someone in the Thief community ever suggested a throwing axe.

In any case, I hope you have enough time to scrap this idea and make the Greatsword Thief Ninja a reality.

Thanks for the beta.

 

Axe doesnt at all, fit the theme of any form of an assassin other than Kanaxai...even HE used his axes better, Cmon anet, get it together. what you said about 1/2 before 3 to deal good damage, right on the head.

this is NOT how you design a gw2 weapon, this is WoW type of crap. they need to do better and START...listening....to....thief...players....LISTEN LINDA!

EDIT: this is an addition to some suggestions. 

A/D - let this be a melee version entirely of axe combo. #1 is a cleave up to 5 targets speed of sword but slightly faster attack rate, give it the current conditions it does but allow it to spawn stationary whirl finisher axes that deal no RAW damage with whirl finishers that work with useful fields in group compositions and thief solo, this will proc combo fields to give beneficial effects while also being able to fullfill the MELEE/RANGED hybrid role. 3rd attack would spawn an axe within auto attack chain.

#2 would be a spin melee attack that hits 3 times but can hit 5 foes(similar to stolen cyclone axe from warrior on core thief but shorter). each hit spawns a poison axe that also spins but in addition to its original effects like the prior spawned axe via #1 would ALSO apply poison whirl in addition to prior whirls. #3 would be as it is currently but ACTUALLY worked and teleported behind your enemy and become an evade as is currently in beta and sling the axes WHILE whirling in their direction which also pierces 5 foes per axe up to 6.

#4 and 5 would remain the same

A/P i wouldnt change a thing. if anything i would give it more defenses than an interrupt and black powder to which i dont see you being able to fend off anyone rushing you. my only hope is that the #3 on A/P isnt a bug for additional 900 range after stationary axes are placed... the #3 evade isnt enough relying too much on utility and you would have better results with p/p unload spammer at this point. the ramp up time is just too great. velocity increase is needed for sidesteppers. Throw axes should NOT stick to ground unless the target is on the ground....if the target is up high, like an archer npc in wvw, it SHOULD be allowed to hit but NOT go THROUGH walls.

there ya go... condi, power, range melee hybrid weapon

Edited December 1, 2023 by Lithril Ashwalker.6230

[Twilightmage.8309]

I really like the mechanic of setting up axes and pulling them back, but i wish it was more of a hybrid weapon so i could have a ranged aoe weapon option on rifle deadeye.

[rickysway.2460]

12 hours ago, chuckwest.1542 said:

1,800 range

Idk about you but in WvW, my pre-placed axes disappear after they travel 900 range on skill 2/3

 

12 hours ago, chuckwest.1542 said:

Being able to hit around corners is great

Equally in WvW, if the axes from skill 2/3 collide with a wall or a bit of raised terrain on the way to the target, they disappear

[zLofty.4837]

After playing with the weapon in wvw zvz for over a day now I can conclude the weapon (while buggy) is very well designed to fit the role every zvz thief has wanted for a ranged weapon. However we need this to be unblockable across the board. I don’t think it would cause major issues outside of zvz since the axes are easy to dodge in small scale or 1v1 anyway. If it ends up being too strong I’m all for dialing it back but as someone who has tried to make daredevil work in zvz at the top levels for hundreds of hours. Please just let us have this win. I won’t even ask for bug fixes if you give it unblockable just let me have my fun. Also make the interaction with dagger also apply to the pistol version (pulling the axes back to you if you don’t have a target) big quality of life.

Edited November 30, 2023 by zLofty.4837

[Padra.1678]

I first want to say that I have really enjoyed playing with the Axe. I think the Devs came up with something really for this weapon so I defiantly want to acknowledge that. However the Weapon the way it is now in the BETA test it needs a little more work. I feel overall the weapon is just a little to slow to do its damage have to go thorough all those long casts and stack the axes in the first place. The axe overall be it Condition or Power needs a little more payoff [Damage] and a little less ramp up. I also think across the board the innitive costs on the weapon are a little bit high especially the duel skill. There are also two big things that i think need to change:

1 The ambush skill with the AXE does not scale with malice for DE (power) builds. The damage componant of the axe ambush needs a way to scale with malice for power builds.

2 The axe dagger duel skill is not at all working. The axes being pulled back to your character and not the target makes it very hard to get any hits with the skill. Also the tool tip reads it says teleport behind the target and it does not do that. The teleport on the skill really doesent feel good to me being there you want to stay at range with the axe and to always be teleported to the target just dosent make sense to me. 

Beyond that I would really like to see the duel skills get a little more interesting. Maby incorporating the offhand like the currently existing ones do. Like for A/D in addtion to the current skill effects remove the teleport and have the imob come from a thrown dagger. or for the power version if the axes all land procing the imob the pistol will then automatically trigger an addtional direct damage shot. or something. All thats just ideas I do really like the mechanics for the weapon and I think ANET is deffitaly on to a really cool, fun and intersting weapon/playstyle.

Edited November 30, 2023 by Padra.1678

[Iustitian.9176]

- Skill 1: No Projectile Combo Finisher info in tooltip
- Will make pistol as single target range condition weapon obsolete. Pistol need a better skill 2.

[BadSanta.6527]

axe need off hand axe as well in my opinion , the exsiting options make the wepon really stale .

 

[Geoff Fey.1035]

21 minutes ago, BadSanta.6527 said:

axe need off hand axe as well in my opinion , the exsiting options make the wepon really stale .

 

While I like the idea, Offhand Axe would have provided more build variety (4 combos vs. current 2).

ANet could literally change it to an Offhand weapon without any changes right now (Skill 1--> Skill 4, Skill 2--> Skill 5), and it would probably have a greater impact for Thief builds than the current iteration, which is incredibly unfortunate.

[Seraq.4692]

So I've been benching the class for quite a bit (I'm the one who made the 62k benchmark), and so here are my thoughts regarding axe for instanced content with dagger offhand.

Overall the weapon is really enjoyable, and the rotation flows really smoothly. This is also new rotation experience for thief overall with a breath of fresh air where you don't spam only 1 button anymore. There are however a few pain points that I would like to see addressed:

1. Stealth attack revealing you when it hits back with axe 3. This is not an issue with the benchmark as I'm fast enough in order to hit while still revealed, but slower players or quickness drops might make it hit outside of that and ruin the whole rotation.
2. Stealth attack axe going in random places. The issue here is that in order to make it hit with axe/dagger 3, you need to be mindful of it and replace accordingly. In actual encounters, this would be quite difficult. Please either fix so that the stealth attack axe either ending up in the center of the target hitbox/behind it, or make it so that axe/dagger 3 makes axes go to your target instead.
3. Using the basic combo of 223 will make it so that axe 3 will only hit with the 3 axes of the first axe 2 with quickness. This seems kind of counterintuitive, and requires to jump through a few hoops delaying the rotation in order to have axe 3 pulling with all 6 axes. I can also see this being annoying in other gamemodes as well, especially if it is true even without quickness.

Please keep in mind that this is regarding instanced content, and I'm not looking at the numbers here, only the flow/QoL of the weapon. I have no idea how the weapon performs in open world/PvP/WvW.

[draxynnic.3719]

Spent a bit of time last night writing up some of the problems and some proposals, then before I posted I went back to verify whether something worked the way I thought it did or not. Turned out I'd misremembered, and according to the graphics at least, something I was proposing had already been done. I think the analysis is still valuable, though, so rather than throwing it all out, I'll just cut the relevant parts and add more later (either in editing or a followup post) if I come up with a better idea.

Problem 1: Identity and Purpose

People have described axe as being essentially pistol with extra steps, and that analogy isn't entirely wrong. It's a ranged mainhand, that can (at least in theory) be either power or condi depending on whether the offhand is pistol or dagger, respectively, with an at least partially condition-based stealth attack. What axe really needs is a use case - a purpose for which you'd use axe where it's not simply replacing what some other weapon is already doing.

One that has been identified involved giving up the damage on the initial axe throw in order to pull off tricks with the spinning axes. Axes can be pre-placed in order to generate a spike when a suitable target appears, can be used with axe/pistol 3 to throw axes well beyond normal ranges, and can be used, with A/P 3 again, to throw axes around corners. While cute, this is pretty niche for most players.

Another that people were excited for is for axe to be was a cleaving weapon to give thief a suitable ranged weapon for dealing with groups. That's historically been shortbow, but that's progressively been made into more of a utility weapon. Pistol pays a lot of damage to pierce - not just the 10%, but it also competes with a DPS trait. Rifle has some piercing traits, but they're intended primarily to make sure you can hit your marked target. Axe has an explosive stealth attack, piercing projectiles that (presumably) have wider hitboxes than bullets, and those axes are potentially coming from multiple directions. This means it could potentially be effective at cleaving multiple targets, even if the damage is still mostly concentrated on a single target. 

Problem 2: The Power Option:

As discussed above, axe is intended to be power with pistol, and condi with dagger. The latter seems to work fairly well, albeit with some issues with skill 3 and its positioning. The former, though, presents a significant issue in the axe retention priority: axes from the autoattack have a higher power coefficient than individual axes from skill 2, so venomous axes having priority over auto axes can actually reduce your damage potential. Furthermore, since axe has no means of blasting or leaping the smoke field, axe/pistol has trouble accessing stealth outside of utility skills that grant stealth directly (and typically have long cooldowns).

Proposal:

When using pistol offhand, prioritise which axes are retained according to their power damage. Alternatively, have a/p 3 provide enough of a boost to venomous axes so that their power damage potential when called back at least matches auto attacks. As an additional possibility, have a/p 3 give you stealth if all six axes hit the primary target instead of immobilising the target - this will give a/p more opportunity to use the stealth attack.

Problem 3: Deadeyes:

We've been here before - deadeye mechanics really require being able to reliably hit a specific (marked) target. Most axe attacks pierce, but the most critical for a deadeye apparently does not.

Proposal:

Guardian pistol 5, stage 2 has a mechanic where it can pass through targets but only explode on the player's designated target. A malicious stealth axe could have a similar mechanic - it pierces through enemies on the way to the designated target and explodes there. Some extra power damage on the malicious axe for consuming malice stacks would probably also help power deadeyes using axe (although since the malice stacks are also adding poison, it probably shouldn't scale too aggressively).

Problem 4: Spectres:

Spectres really want to be using torment as one of their primary damaging conditions due to traits that feed off it - they may gain shadow force and healing from it, and potentially extra damage as well. This discourages them from using weapons other than sceptre as they generally want to keep their torment stacks up. A/D 3 does add torment to each axe, but a sceptre is still likely to provide significantly more. Spectre's lower initiative can also make the 2-2-3 combo harder to pull off.

Problem?: Daredevil?

I'm honestly not sure if there is one here or not? A daredevil is likely to want to work dodges into their rotation. For a condi build, however, this might actually be a good thing (the daredevil can use dodges to place axes in different locations relative to the target, and as filler to avoid issues of using skill 3 before the axes are ready to call back). Power builds might be more of an issue, since Bound is a little fiddlier to get damage out of than Impaling Lotus, and if a power build wants to get six autoattack axes out before calling them in, and any Bounds they need to work in as well is just going to make that take even longer. Adjusting the priority of axes as discussed under problem 2, or buffing the power coefficient of venomous axes when called back using a/p 3 so that they at least match autoattacks, should resolve this, however.

[BadSanta.6527]

a gew things about axe that i have tried so far 

first - its not hybrid wepon , if you want to make the most of it use condi no power 

second- boy i wish it was melle and not ranger 

third - spining whells kind of nice in consept but the aplication is not good , the should have dmg or something rather just keep swinging 

last - thief is despert for new off hand , could have been nice to get support of hand with it like axe support or something 

[Audio.4376]

Takes a while to get used to but I don't like how easy it is to be out of range of the thrown axes (throws too far imo).

Really wish this was an off-hand option. throwing the axe down and making an AoE area (much like the Jade sea fractal boss?) while keeping the scepter up for emergency barrier on party. Feels like we could do with just one thrown poison aoe and recall on target : on target for offence, on player for defensive

 

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

Feedback on Thief Axe

Personally I really enjoy the weapon and the mini mechanic of managing axes. With that said, I feel like the indicator that shows how many axes you have could be made a bit more clearer. The axes themselves also have a lot of pathing and tracking issues, get stuck on terrain, go through terrain, hit from way beyond their range (1800+) or fail to hit from way within their ranges ( < 600). It also feels very strange that thrown axes can be seen on the ground, spinning, but deal no damage. Maybe that would be OP but it would feel a lot better if spinning axes would do some damage and not just be there to be pretty/be axe 3 fuel, even if the spin damage is very low.

Condi variant:
Damage is through the roof despite the clunky tracking. There is no way this will reach the life version of the game, it is that broken. Aside from the damage itself: It seems never worth it to use Axe 2. Axe 1 is better for damage. So you just spam 1 until you have enough axes, use 3, repeat. Rebalance PvE damage, improve tracking and make Axe 2 worth using.

Power variant:
Power seems to sit around 30/31k. Fun kitten around for the open world sure, but you are not going to bring that for serious instanced content. So it can use more. And it suffers from the same tracking and pathing issues as the condi variant (and also here Axe 2 does not seem to be worth it).

The weapon also has a lot of problems with traits like lead attacks not working, reveals if you use 3 on an axe thrown from a stealth attack, etc.

PvP/WvW:
The weapon has only damage, it has no defense whatsoever. For a PvP set that is not good. And PvP also deserves a functional weaponset. For PvP scenarios it also feels like the set has a design conflict. The weapon is meant to be ranged, but to get the most out of it (to the point there is no use in bringing it if you don't) you need to use axe 3...which ports you into melee range again. And then what? Do we have to run away again until we are at safe range and chuck axes...only to be ported back into the dangerous fray the next time you use an Axe 3? Does not seem very logical.

I can 100% see the fun and potential in the weapon, but it still needs work!

Edited December 1, 2023 by Wielder Of Magic.3950