Next Vindicator nerf

[Gazrul.3086]

For WvW these changes are extremely awkward. If you use the Relic of Evasion, then the loss of 25% increased vigor effectiveness is offset by being able to choose the Angsiyan's Trust trait, which after the rework is now quite powerful as it makes our F2 cost no energy and instead grant 25 energy on demand. So, while using this particular relic, this is a solid buff to the spec. However, WITHOUT this relic this is a serious nerf to the spec, as the new Song of Arboretum is objectively worse than the previous version in every possible way. 8s 50% vigor every 20s is a joke compared to 5s 62% vigor on every dodge we had before. Before we could have near 100% uptime on vigor if we used dodges correctly, now we can't. 

So yeah, with the relic of evasion this is a buff. Without it it's a serious nerf. And we shouldn't have to use a specific relic just to offset what we've lost.

[Kalydon.6739]

Im not normally active in the forums tbh, but this change makes vindicator so much more clunky to play in group PvE. If anyone else doesnt bring vigor, your feel for when your dodge is ready completly breaks, because of the inconsistent vigor uptime.

Also the F2 is still very annoing. Its pointless for quick defensive use because of the cast time (at least in frac cms its way too long if you quickly need endurance), and its not really fun for offensive use. You need to pick the vigor one if your team doesnt apply it,  the more dmg one just seems like a wired gimmik and the energy one ist completly pointless.

Playing the retibution traitline is a huge dps loss and the relic of evasion is also very meh compared to the damage options.

If heal vindi in PvE would be a thing, wich it itsnt, beacuse of alac or quickness, it might actually be ok to take the energy or the vigor one, bout would still just suck for the dps specs.

All in all i think i should reroll to power herald, it gives a lot of boons to the party without the dps loss, increases the duration of all boons frequently, might have the same damage now and also play the same weapon. 

[Kalydon.6739]

29 minutes ago, Kalydon.6739 said:

Im not normally active in the forums tbh, but this change makes vindicator so much more clunky to play in group PvE. If anyone else doesnt bring vigor, your feel for when your dodge is ready completly breaks, because of the inconsistent vigor uptime.

Also the F2 is still very annoing. Its pointless for quick defensive use because of the cast time (at least in frac cms its way too long if you quickly need endurance), and its not really fun for offensive use. You need to pick the vigor one if your team doesnt apply it,  the more dmg one just seems like a wired gimmik and the energy one ist completly pointless.

Playing the retibution traitline is a huge dps loss and the relic of evasion is also very meh compared to the damage options.

If heal vindi in PvE would be a thing, wich it itsnt, beacuse of alac or quickness, it might actually be ok to take the energy or the vigor one, bout would still just suck for the dps specs.

All in all i think i should reroll to power herald, it gives a lot of boons to the party without the dps loss, increases the duration of all boons frequently, might have the same damage now and also play the same weapon. 

I tested around a bit with retribution at the golem and it might kinda work, need to test it tomorrow in fractals tho, if i can get a decent vigor uptime with unwavering avoidance and energy meld. 

Also if anyone has a better idea to replace the lost precision, im running berserkers with accuracy sigil, ranger rune and assassins GS.

[Buran.3796]

1 hour ago, Kalydon.6739 said:

Also if anyone has a better idea to replace the lost precision, im running berserkers with accuracy sigil, ranger rune and assassins GS.

  Marauder gives more precission than Berserker. Eagle runes provide precission and ferocity and Ranger runes provide even more precission and some ferocity.

[Buran.3796]

14 hours ago, Esufer.8762 said:

Beginning to get the vibe that the majority of forum users don't like change.

   Well, changes in short bow made it viable, but at the same time changes in Coalescence of Ruin botched that weapon and changes on staff, Shiro or Retribution made me abandon Herald. Changes not always means "nerfs" but oftenly means "you no longer will have fun with this build", so overall yes, I'm sceptic to changes. 

[Jobber.6348]

2 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Well, changes in short bow made it viable, but at the same time changes in Coalescence of Ruin botched that weapon and changes on staff, Shiro or Retribution made me abandon Herald. Changes not always means "nerfs" but oftenly means "you no longer will have fun with this build", so overall yes, I'm sceptic to changes. 

Honestly what made me just stop Herald is because of Salvation change. Used to need Infuse Light alot to handle a Condi burst. 

Now I run core or Renegade with Salvation and Condi builds don't bully me as hard anymore. Well unless I get ganked by 5 people but that's getting ganked, not getting countered. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Yasai.3549

[Angesombre.4630]

A lot of people still play it solo?

[Buran.3796]

17 hours ago, Angesombre.4630 said:

A lot of people still play it solo?

  Absolutely. Had a blast roaming WvW this weekend (albeit I think that didn't record the best 1 v 1) and I'm also finishing Vision in PvE (almost done, alreday crafting the Istan weapons and I'm like 15 achievements away from "A Star Guides Us" to have everything done). The builds are weaker but still strong. I'll up some videos as soon as I could. But I was so busy with my Revs that after breifly testing the scepter in the beta I came back to my farmings and didn't touch any other beta build...

[Angesombre.4630]

Terribly boring to play solo, dodge bug for vindicator and if corrected one day I wait for the dps nerf.

[Buran.3796]

 

 

   Context: the first 3 fights are from the week before the patch (Nov 28th), then the next 3 are after that date. 

   First Mesmer fights goes in the usual way: high initial Chrono burst and strong condi pressure that can be endured and allows to recover if not too much mistakes are made (still exposing my weak use of Kurzik), then the we enter in a plateau in which I gradually gain advantage.

   The second Chrono is way weaker and falls faster; a Harb arrives and is though but the thing was balanced; the Reaper forces me to step back and I make the mistake of insisting in the Harb instead of the much worse Reaper; two more arrive and the fun ends...

   The Mirage follows similar path as the Chronos: condi overload and high initial burst, He uses well its blocks, reflects and mobility but eventually my AoE cleans its clones and its abilities start to enter in cooldowns; they punch hard even in downstate as the Ranger tasted in the firt clip, but I'm aware of that.

   The Holosmith fight was one of my two fav since the patch (sadly didn't record the other one): a frentic 4 minutes battle which started from a mutual warclaw charge:  tons of AoE, cc and constant pressure from diamond player running a power build; that allowed me to ditch Kurzic and to focus in reacting to  the Holo moveset and patterns. The environment wasn't perfect to the use of my bow but my build is versatile enough.

   The condi Herald wasn't a fast skirmish but was easier than the Mesmers: my HP never fell below 13k. This was a hard counter since that build can't really damage Vindicator, specially giving up the short bow (even then Vindi's cleansing game is just superior). I don't think the Spellbreaker was running a proper roaming build.

 

   The second video is post patch. The first fight is really bad gameplay on both sides: the Vindi and the Necro are low ranked and they probably don't known much about how to use their skills outside a zerg; I wasted too time downing the gs/hammer vindi, did decent defense but it should have lasted much less (again, did chose the wrong target to focus).

   The Daredevil in the camp was much more interesting: She dazes, immobilizes, burst, disengages and contest the camp to prevent the capture and spawn the guards; pre-SotO weapon mastery's would probably crush my full mele build, but with short bow now the constant pressure is bidirectional and I've cleansed camps below heal Scourge supports, so once his last burst fails and the guards are down again just choses to retreat.

   The last two fights are very different: a full ranged condi pistol Daredevil which smartly uses stealth and relocation to break my targeting and daze, blind and fill me with conditions.  Toys with me and utterly destroys me, remaining almost untouched. The second encounter is barely better due I finally use some blue skills, so it last longer but I spent most of the time blinded (22 times in less than 150 seconds), dazed or in retreat so never got his HP below 58%. Super annoying and humbling, but I see ways to improve. Just only hope ANet never provide Revs stealth: I don't want to be part of that lame circle.

   So how has been the patch? So far, Vindi nerfs, no more vigor and might stacks (doesn't matter in PvP), much less fury (doesn't matter in PvE). Haemmer buffs but I have to test yet in WvW.

[Angesombre.4630]

Revenant

In addition to toning down the damage of power vindicator in PvE, we've made some minor adjustments to axe to improve its usability for condition builds.

• Frigid Blitz: This skill no longer inflicts slow. This skill now also inflicts torment.
• Temporal Rift: Reduced the time the rift takes to collapse from 0.9 seconds to 0.75 seconds.
• Echoing Eruption: Reduced the number of blast finishers from 3 to 1. This skill now also grants might to the user.
• Leviathan Strength: Reduced the damage bonus from 15% to 10% in PvE only.

I had announced the vindicator nerf again, which is not lacking, after the obligation of F2, and a trait that increases power, you nerf it with another trait I knew this was going to happen. While it is full of bug again not correction but nerf, GG Anet....

[Buran.3796]

  I don't known what they chase with the Echoing Eruption change: they already removed might from Contained Temper, if you want the boon out just remove the boon in each Rev skill, not change how it works in the same one.

  Leviathan Strenght doesn't bother me since outside the niche instanced content in which pVindi has some use, celestial Vindicator is so superior in PvE (and doesn't use that trait) that the change is irrelevant.

   What fascinates me is:  Herald is theoretically the current axis of being a Revenant since has a strong quickness build (which I depise), Renegade has nothing since there's better alacity providers (despite I like the build since is comfy to play) and Vindicator has a power build which only stands out in damage (but not in PvP/WvW, of course), so why to nerf a viable spec (I'm talking from the perspective of the hardcore raiders, which I'm not part of) when you already have have one with no use? Is because Herald requires HoT and makes more sales than EoD? But HoT is sold along PoF, whereas EoD comes alone...   I understand that HoT masteries  + PoF mounts craps on everything else released later so compelling players to get the Herald is healthier, but why to kitten the bed with Vindicator?  Has been in a streak of nerfts for 18 months, and ain't stop here...

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Buran.3796 said:

  I don't known what they chase with the Echoing Eruption change

My first thought what goes in their mind is the following.

They don't want to compete with support weapons because of relic of karakosa useage.

But they still want us to have nice uptime on might boons with it. Because you lose multipble combo blasts with fire aura, so they added this instead.

 

 

About the axe changes more torment is nice but have to see the stack amount/duration first. Shorter pull on axe is more reliable to get off in competitive.

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by arazoth.7290

[Buran.3796]

16 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

They don't want to compete with support weapons because of relic of karakosa useage.

   Maybe but the maths are that 1 migth < 3 might stacks, and in the last months our access to fury and might have been reduced and the change seems oriented towards balancing support builds, which most Rev players don't use, and in the path dps builds got hurt, which is what most do play.

   Also I don't see the support Rev in PvE/PvP: while those game modes getting a dps or bruiser slot is relatively open and disputed, the role of pure healers are oftenly eclipsed by a single choice. So when heal Tespest or Hearl Mech are strong they are the best and when support Guardian or Druid are the best they are the best and the same with Scourge etc. What I'm trying to say is that best in slot replaces best in slot, and I'm not seing Rev being best in slot no matter how much they buff the scepter (which was already overshadowed by mace due that relic). My logic: if current mace support Rev is not meta why would a worse weapon make it better? Is not like Rev would be ever able to compete in blast finishers against a Engie, also...

[arazoth.7290]

7 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Maybe but the maths are that 1 migth < 3 might stacks, and in the last months our access to fury and might have been reduced and the change seems oriented towards balancing support builds, which most Rev players don't use, and in the path dps builds got hurt, which is what most do play.

   Also I don't see the support Rev in PvE/PvP: while those game modes getting a dps or bruiser slot is relatively open and disputed, the role of pure healers are oftenly eclipsed by a single choice. So when heal Tespest or Hearl Mech are strong they are the best and when support Guardian or Druid are the best they are the best and the same with Scourge etc. What I'm trying to say is that best in slot replaces best in slot, and I'm not seing Rev being best in slot no matter how much they buff the scepter (which was already overshadowed by mace due that relic). My logic: if current mace support Rev is not meta why would a worse weapon make it better? Is not like Rev would be ever able to compete in blast finishers against a Engie, also...

They just have a fear mace might be too much competition, that's all 🤷.

Btw where was it mentioned that it's 1 might stack? I haven't read that in the notes, so it might be higher idk.

Ps. support rev in pvp is fine ^^

[Jobber.6348]

19 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

They just have a fear mace might be too much competition, that's all 🤷

Irrelevant worry in the current ecosystem of the game. 

Mace would have its place, Scepter barrier uptime would have its place. There's 0 need to nerf something to make something else more attractive, that just pigeon holes players into playing the better option. In a perfect world, people would be able to choose Mace or Scepter whether they need more heals or barrier uptime. Instead, we have this nonsense. 

[arazoth.7290]

17 minutes ago, Yasai.3549 said:

Irrelevant worry in the current ecosystem of the game. 

Mace would have its place, Scepter barrier uptime would have its place. There's 0 need to nerf something to make something else more attractive, that just pigeon holes players into playing the better option. In a perfect world, people would be able to choose Mace or Scepter whether they need more heals or barrier uptime. Instead, we have this nonsense. 

Indeed, weird change. I hope that it atleast gets enough sufficient might 😐

[Buran.3796]

56 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

Ps. support rev in pvp is fine ^^

  I've not seen a Ventari Rev at PvP in ages. And given how matchmaking works currently that includes ALL PvP ranks.

[arazoth.7290]

4 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  I've not seen a Ventari Rev at PvP in ages. And given how matchmaking works currently that includes ALL PvP ranks.

Doesn't matter, it's still more then available. Just not as popular, everyone their personal preference I guess.

 

[Angesombre.4630]

1 improvement for 9 nerfs.

[Angesombre.4630]

The vindicator was an infamous piece of crap when it came out, and it was improved, only to be destroyed afterwards. I don't understand the purpose of their policy in Anet. They want to turn it into a second warrior devoid of any flavor.

Edited January 13 by Angesombre.4630

[Buran.3796]

  Fun thing: off hand sword is currently worse that Willbender's one despite that last one was born as a copycat from ours. Shackling Wave only roots for 1 second across all game modes whereas Advancing Strike roots for 2 seconds and slows for 3 seconds in both WvW and PvP.

   Also, I don't known why people are excited about the scepter: is a weapon which delivers barrier and has to stack hits to being able to activate a pull, hu? Well, I never liked barrier since the concept was alien to GW2: barrier was used by Protoss in Starcraft and Halo and some other games; when arrived with PoF it wrecked the PvP, and builds as Firebrand and Scourge ended nerfed to dead (literaly). We got barrier with Vindicator (the Heltzer jump) and guess what... was so strong thet ended removed. Now, currently barrier is so strong that is better than heals in the competitive game modes, and we will get a weapon which vomits barrier...  Can you guess what will happen? In six months? A scepter with barrier removed, the same as a greatsword with cleave/damage removed, or a off had sword which is worse than the eastern counterfit...

Edited January 15 by Buran.3796

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

On 1/12/2024 at 2:43 PM, Buran.3796 said:

  Also I don't see the support Rev in PvE/PvP: while those game modes getting a dps or bruiser slot is relatively open and disputed, the role of pure healers are oftenly eclipsed by a single choice.

My logic: if current mace support Rev is not meta why would a worse weapon make it better? Is not like Rev would be ever able to compete in blast finishers against a Engie, also...

Support Rev is absolutely viable in PvE and it is played occasionally. The new changes to shield, etc. have also made it much better. It's just being slept on. The general public is still choosing things like HB due to PoF habit, not due to performance

Also Scepter (at least in PvE) is going to be a beast and will be better than Karkosa-Mace (even before the upcoming nerfs). The amount of barrier that Scepter puts out (even on a raw full berserker dps build) is absolutely bonkers. Barrier is nearly always better than raw healing too (which heal rev has never struggled with); Karkosa-Mace even in its current iteration doesn't stand a chance

Edited January 15 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[arazoth.7290]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Fun thing: off hand sword is currently worse that Willbender's one despite that last one was born as a copycat from ours. Shackling Wave only roots for 1 second across all game modes whereas Advancing Strike roots for 2 seconds and slows for 3 seconds in both WvW and PvP.

   Also, I don't known why people are excited about the scepter: is a weapon which delivers barrier and has to stack hits to being able to activate a pull, hu? Well, I never liked barrier since the concept was alien to GW2: barrier was used by Protoss in Starcraft and Halo and some other games; when arrived with PoF it wrecked the PvP, and builds as Firebrand and Scourge ended nerfed to dead (literaly). We got barrier with Vindicator (the Heltzer jump) and guess what... was so strong thet ended removed. Now, currently barrier is so strong that is better than heals in the competitive game modes, and we will get a weapon which vomits barrier...  Can you guess what will happen? In six months? A scepter with barrier removed, the same as a greatsword with cleave/damage removed, or a off had sword which is worse than the eastern counterfit...

That's why Scepter needs some improvements on mechanical level, which it lacks atm!!!

The stronger the foundation it's build, the better it works and it will still be more then fine if barrier might get some slight nerfs 

Following changes are for PvP, WvW and PvE.

•Solution for Scepter biggest problem:

- Tether upkeep should auto generate 1 stack/second when applied to the target.(ally/enemy)  Auto attacks can still fasten up the progress.

- Tether consume should have aoe damage too when you pull the targeted enemy.

The enemy you try to pull gets damaged around himself with 300 aoe radius, 5 targets max .

Tether consume on allies has a worthwhile effect but the effect vs enemies has no damage as counterpart. So that's why it needs this change for also delivering aoe damage.

 

•Solution Scepter lesser problems finetuning:

- Auto attack: Barrier shouldn't be granted only 3rd chain sequence. Spread the barrier numbers on 3 chain auto attacks, evenly. Example if 3rd chain hit currently gives 1k barrier, it should give on each auto 333,33... instead. And a blast finisher on 3rd chain with more targets hit for aoe.

1st auto chain attack => x barrier + x damage

2nd auto chain attack => x barrier + x damage + x might

3rd auto chain attack => x barrier + x damage + x might + combo blast finisher. And hits 5 targets instead.

- 2nd skill Blossoming Aura: 

-10 energy cost => 5 energy cost

-Increase baseline pulsing damage.

-Increase baseline final hit.

-The final hit should be 5 target aoe and combo blast finisher.

- 3rd skill Outwordly Bond (tether):

To make this all sync together. 

-Tether upkeep on enemy: around you and target a fire combo field is active as long upkeep is there.

-Tether upkeep on ally: Around you and target a light combo field is active as long upkeep is there.

[Angesombre.4630]

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Support Rev is absolutely viable in PvE and it is played occasionally. The new changes to shield, etc. have also made it much better. It's just being slept on. The general public is still choosing things like HB due to PoF habit, not due to performance

Also Scepter (at least in PvE) is going to be a beast and will be better than Karkosa-Mace (even before the upcoming nerfs). The amount of barrier that Scepter puts out (even on a raw full berserker dps build) is absolutely bonkers. Barrier is nearly always better than raw healing too (which heal rev has never struggled with); Karkosa-Mace even in its current iteration doesn't stand a chance

The Sceptre will either be very good at first and nerfed to death later on, or it will look like the dung of Vindicator when it first came out and is now coming back with all the nerfs suffered since its release. Even if it had a second wind at some point. Because he's changing the way he uses F2's crap, ok that pisses me off, he's adding DPS with "Reaver's Curse", for nerf 2 months after the joke and he doesn't nerf that trait, they do it on "Leviathan Strength" which had been increased in September 2023. The joke is that they don't even know what they're doing. Nerfs come faster than buffs and bug fixes.

38 minutes ago, arazoth.7290 said:

That's why Scepter needs some improvements on mechanical level, which it lacks atm!!!

The stronger the foundation it's build, the better it works and it will still be more then fine if barrier might get some slight nerfs 

Following changes are for PvP, WvW and PvE.

Since when does Anet make light nerf?

Edited January 15 by Angesombre.4630