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Revert Unyielding Dragon change in PvP/WvW


KryTiKaL.3125

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Normally I would not make a thread like this, despite ANet making many numerous weird changes (the Arc Divider one being one of them) others normally came out and made the thread for me.

This change crippled Bladesworn. It turned a tool that could be used to cut through the numerous blocks and blinds that are the bane of Warrior in general and still land a stun to land much needed damage or interrupt some heavy incoming damage into something that just turns you into a gigantic weak spot.

Now you could chalk this up to a similar situation with what happened with Arc Divider, but it did not feel like the Arc Divider change actually crippled Berserker. Made it feel worse, sure, made it not as enjoyable to use, sure, made it much more easily avoidable, sure, but it didn't cripple it.

Now for sure Defense Bladesworn is still going to be sitting on a metric ton of sustain that still needs addressing, Unyielding Dragon not stunning isn't going to necessary change that but I am fairly certain that this change was made in consideration of the change to Heightened Focus, honestly possibly due to feedback on these forums of people talking about "maybe we'll be able to fire off multiple Dragon Slashes like the Daring Dragon of old" which may have prompted the balance devs to push out a change to "prepare" for that potentiality.

To be fair to them it would be a very valid concern, you don't want Bladesworns firing off multiple Dragon Slashes just stunning people repeatedly like that (ignoring the fact that you can already do this with Dragonspike Mine but...okay maybe they just don't want you to do it three times). Again, very valid. Unfortunately that is just not accurate to how that trait would operate in actual gameplay. If it were something one could control more precisely, sure, but its an auto activating trait that triggers after hitting a target below 50% health with anything and it is on a 12 second ICD. To reiterate, it triggers automatically regardless of whether or not your Dragon Trigger is on cooldown. So you can trigger it, get the quickness but get no benefit out of the Burst cooldown reset meaning it becomes worthless to use for the purpose of "spamming" Dragon Slash for the stun in PvP/WvW. In fact it doesn't even reset Dragon Trigger. You can test this on any Golem in the PvP lobby or WvW. This could be a bug or it could be intended, either way I truly, truly do not know why it was thought to be necessary to make this change...and it is not even explained why in the patch notes.

Change it back. Please. Or explain why it was done so that the players have something more specific to direct their feedback towards.

@Cal Cohen.2358

Pulling a Lan with this one 😏

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@KryTiKaL.3125 tho i like this Change cause bsw into other warr specs was a hardly win for Bladesworn (at least If you not playing condi Berserker but even with this one it was kind of a hard to win matchub) now you are just able to win the Match ub at least on time. Outside of this i kinda found this spec hella unhealthy for PvP (cause it was too easy to Play) overall so also in this side its good to be nerfed ^^

Edited by Myror.7521
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9 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 tho i like this Change cause bsw into other warr specs was a hardly win for Bladesworn (at least If you not playing condi Berserker but even with this one it was kind of a hard to win matchub) now you are just able to win the Match ub at least on time. Outside of this i kinda found this spec hella unhealthy for PvP (cause it was too easy to Play) overall so also in this side its good to be nerfed ^^

The issues on Bladesworn were not with its ability to stun, its overbearing sustain is the primary problem (Adrenal Health + Combat Stimulant + Might Makes Right + Aegis with Relic of the Defender) and what has consistently propped it up. Dragon Slash stunning was not one of them. The sustain issue is still there because Unyielding Dragon is still unblockable, it still ignores Blind and it will still trigger things like Adrenal Health because of it.

If anything this change is going to force people into using the Strength/Defense/Bladesworn build rather than deviate to others because you just lost a big utility so now you will kind of need the extra extra sustain.

It is just in general a weird change that makes no sense. They don't even provide a reason for it, nor do I think they will...they don't have a good track record of follow up on that.

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10 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@KryTiKaL.3125 tho i like this Change cause bsw into other warr specs was a hardly win for Bladesworn (at least If you not playing condi Berserker but even with this one it was kind of a hard to win matchub) now you are just able to win the Match ub at least on time. Outside of this i kinda found this spec hella unhealthy for PvP (cause it was too easy to Play) overall so also in this side its good to be nerfed ^^

Unshakable Mountain is why Bladesworn is easy to play. You get chip and small burst damage immunity for rolling your face on the keyboard. Unyielding Dragon stuns weren't the issue. Unshakable Mountain promoting braindead mashing playstyles is. If any of those Bladesworns in PvP used Lush Forest or Fierce as Fire they'd get cooked even with Shield Master turning them into walking reflectors. 

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Removing the Stun from UD lowers the skill ceiling for Bladesworn too. You no longer have to think about what punishes you can get off based on how many Dragon Trigger charges you had. There's no longer a point to weapon swap cancelling DT - Boost to cancel the ending lag for optimal punish times. No more quick drawing DTs to interrupt important enemy skills. No more rock, paper, scissors DTs in Bladesworn vs. Bladesworn duels. Now it's just charge all the way for bigger number. No quick drawing DT - Boost to avoid AoEs from bosses and enemy teams either thanks to the half second delay... At least Blooming Fire and Artillery Slash got reduced ending lag which doesn't improve their reliability to hit enemies.

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@someguy.4107 nah unshakeable was good or is but its the comb of this trait with healing plus Aegis Spam carrie the entire spec. The unblockable CC on its burst Skill was a carry for the spec in Warrior duells (and also how it sometimes easy win matchubs) thats its now gone let enemys window for counterplay ^^

@KryTiKaL.3125 i know the self sustain is the Main issue but If you are true to yourself its sustain is the only reason why this spec is playable right now. To me the remove of this CC was still right cause you now could Counter Play that burst better and not get cced while on letz say shield stance. For the Warrior Meta it was a good step (since spell was not able to counter Play that spec in any way besides CC Spam) now its easier to counterplay the spec (since CC also means no way for the enemys to react the next x Seconds/ evoid to get hit by its gunsaber 3 Skill witch is another CC/Daze for X Seconds plus hard hitting skill)

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34 minutes ago, Myror.7521 said:

@someguy.4107 nah unshakeable was good or is but its the comb of this trait with healing plus Aegis Spam carrie the entire spec. The unblockable CC on its burst Skill was a carry for the spec in Warrior duells (and also how it sometimes easy win matchubs) thats its now gone let enemys window for counterplay ^^

@KryTiKaL.3125 i know the self sustain is the Main issue but If you are true to yourself its sustain is the only reason why this spec is playable right now. To me the remove of this CC was still right cause you now could Counter Play that burst better and not get cced while on letz say shield stance. For the Warrior Meta it was a good step (since spell was not able to counter Play that spec in any way besides CC Spam) now its easier to counterplay the spec (since CC also means no way for the enemys to react the next x Seconds/ evoid to get hit by its gunsaber 3 Skill witch is another CC/Daze for X Seconds plus hard hitting skill)

The difficulty in counterplaying Bladesworn was not the Unyielding Dragon stun, it was the sustain that made it difficult, the issue now is that they removed a counterplay element that Bladesworn had at its disposal as I explained in my opening post and how someguy explained in theirs.

So now anything other than Defense Bladesworn, even more so than before, is going to become the norm purely because it will actually survive. You don't even need Unyielding Dragon for it, but for any other build options like Discipline/Strength/Bladesworn or what I wanted to try after the balance patch, Arms/Disc/Bladesworn, all significantly suffer now because a valuable CC utility was just completely removed. Can't even take advantage effectively of Opportunist on Arms with it anymore for burst setups unless you run, you guessed it, the good ol' fallback of Bull's Charge. Which is yet again severely limiting the options available for builds and pigeon holing Bladesworn into the Defense build.

This is a trend ANet follows pretty consistently across basically every class at this point. They do a weirdo bizarre change that makes people go "huh?" and it ends up cutting off build options. If they wanted to address Bladesworn's sustain oppressiveness this was not the way to do it. They have quite literally made similar mistakes in the past with Spellbreaker and those mistakes lead to Core and Berserker getting hard slapped. This is not a change that is necessary to reign in a singularly oppressive build because that build is going to remain relatively unaffected if not just see more usage because of this.

Edited by KryTiKaL.3125
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I'd also like to slap on to that point by saying all warrior duo duels are usually decided by the skill of each player more so than which spec they use due to warriors tools being so straight forward and honest. Even Dragon Trigger CC wasn't unfair because the other player had three telegraph cues to let them know a "Big Slash" was coming. Entering the weeb stance is the 1st, the explosion visual and sound effect are the 2nd & 3rd. If you got hit by any Dragon Trigger it's your own fault. It's not some 1200 range no animation no warning unblockable attack. It's a rando sitting in place for .25-2.5~ seconds before an actual explosion tells you when to dodge into the person casting it.

I really hope this change is reverted :T or else all three grandmaster traits will play exactly the same with no diversion of playstyle. All Bladesworns back to being locked into: Bullscharge, Shake it Off & probably Defiant Stance or Balanced Stance. Though I will still take Overcharged Cartridges, because Breakstepping in front of someone to detonate Cartridges will never get old for me.

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@someguy.4107 nah Back in the days it was that Skill makes the difference but in terms but Bladesworn this is not entirely true. This spec is hella carried by spaming Aegis heal and before this Nerf also some hard CCs (dragonslash plus gunsaber 3) this whole spec is very noob friendly and i think its good for PvP that it is actually nerfed. It could have seen nerfs in other areas thats very true but the dragonslash + gunsaber 3 Comb was realy busted (Just as smokescale CC plus GS 5 for Ranger) cause even while you evade to get hit by one of them the other second Skill will still hit ya. Now its easier to evade get cced and to me thats fair enough. Maybe thats just my own opinion but well yea. 

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10 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@someguy.4107 nah Back in the days it was that Skill makes the difference but in terms but Bladesworn this is not entirely true. This spec is hella carried by spaming Aegis heal and before this Nerf also some hard CCs (dragonslash plus gunsaber 3) this whole spec is very noob friendly and i think its good for PvP that it is actually nerfed. It could have seen nerfs in other areas thats very true but the dragonslash + gunsaber 3 Comb was realy busted (Just as smokescale CC plus GS 5 for Ranger) cause even while you evade to get hit by one of them the other second Skill will still hit ya. Now its easier to evade get cced and to me thats fair enough. Maybe thats just my own opinion but well yea. 

Gunsaber 3 only Dazes when at 2 Ammo, 1 ammo it Cripples and you only have 2 Ammo on it in competitive modes. Also you're acting like other Warrior specs, like Spellbreaker, don't already also do this with FC daze (also unblockable by the way) landing (with immob with No Escape) into Dagger 3 into Bull's Charge. Chain CCing or CC combos are not some abnormal thing in this game, because it also becomes about timing the right abilities to counter the right thing. Your dodge is not your only tool against CC skills; Stability, stunbreaks, Aegis and any other block, invulns, evade skills.

For instance for your particular example (Dragon Slash stun + Gunsaber 3) you can stunbreak the slash stun and dodge the Gunsaber 3. Or have stability active for the slash stun, or use GS3 to evade Gunsaber 3 after stunbreaking or using stab on the slash stun. You can't talk like this is a scenario that every player executes flawlessly against everyone, the only time that happens, from my experience, is if the person on the receiving end dumps both dodges for no reason, has no stunbreaks, runs no stability, or runs no other defensive skills to handle these things. You can also smack a Bladesworn right out of Dragon Trigger if you just auto attack the Aegis off (assuming they use Triggerguard) and then tag them with a CC. Can do that even more effectively now if they try to use Boost since its got a longer delay before activation now.

Also the Aegis healing from Relic of the Defender doesn't carry it outside of it just being yet another source of sustain on Defense Bladesworn. Its an addition that added to the already existing issue of Defense Bladesworn, but the Relic isn't the issue itself...its everything put together. It is still very easy to get Adrenal Health stacks even with the Unyielding Dragon nerf because it is still unblockable and still ignores Blind, Combat Stimulant is still there, running MMR and building might from holding Dragon Trigger with Unyielding Dragon is also still a thing.

Having actually played Bladesworn for a good number of hours I can safely say yes, Defense Bladesworn has had an immense crutch in terms of sustain in competitive modes that has propped it up, but this does not remedy that issue...at all. It just crippled any other possible builds because it removes a vital utility from its kit.

Edited by KryTiKaL.3125
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11 hours ago, Myror.7521 said:

@someguy.4107 nah Back in the days it was that Skill makes the difference but in terms but Bladesworn this is not entirely true. This spec is hella carried by spaming Aegis heal and before this Nerf also some hard CCs (dragonslash plus gunsaber 3) this whole spec is very noob friendly and i think its good for PvP that it is actually nerfed. It could have seen nerfs in other areas thats very true but the dragonslash + gunsaber 3 Comb was realy busted (Just as smokescale CC plus GS 5 for Ranger) cause even while you evade to get hit by one of them the other second Skill will still hit ya. Now its easier to evade get cced and to me thats fair enough. Maybe thats just my own opinion but well yea. 

I appreciate the back and forth Myror. It's nice to be on the forums without devolving into bashing each others opinions :j I'll have to disagree with you on some of your points though.

"Back in the days" is still now. Many times in Bladesworn duo duels if both players take off UM the better Bladesworn wins most of the time. Even if one player keeps UM on; the other player can still win with Fierce as Fire and good Dragon Trigger cancel combo execution.

Bladesworn isn't "noob friendly" UM is noob friendly cause you need zero skill to mash all of your ammo skill buttons for high amounts of barrier at all times. Bladesworn itself is the most unreliable, jank spec that I've experienced. You need Boolean algebra just to know which Dragon Trigger to use based on the location you're in. DT force can't be used on hills, DT boost can't be used close to ledges unless you have weapon swap up (that is if you even boost at all), and DT reach flies into the atmosphere, or ground, if the other player stands next to a: ledge, post, wall, odd geometry, etc. Gunsaber skill 2 (Blooming Fire) does less damage than an auto attack bullet cause people walk out of the damage. Gunsaber skill 3 (Artillery Slash) will miss if the other player: strafes quickly side to side from greater than a close distance away, stops running after the projectile is fired or uses a leap/rush skill towards you... That's right. If you don't want to be hit by Artillery Slash just rush towards the bladesworn when you see that long windup.

The delay does give more time to dodge DT Boost, but the consequence of that is now the DT telegraphing isn't uniform anymore. You'll have to guess as to which DT they're going to use. Before this it was just wait for explosion then dodge behind the bladesworn. At close range this delay to DT boost is easier to dodge now, but at medium-maximum DT boost range it's harder. What if they use DT Reach instead? With this .5s delay, even DT telegraph can't be trusted.

 

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hate the boost change. stun also as there are other classes that have an abundance of cc while we have access to one daze and have to sacrifice utlity slots in order to use more ccs. zerker has been buffed a lot and propably exceeds in both dmg and cc in the same scenario. that's just my assumption. bs has to delay for their payout while zerkers can have an instant feedback for their playstyle.

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On 12/4/2023 at 3:38 PM, pninak.1069 said:

hate the boost change. stun also as there are other classes that have an abundance of cc while we have access to one daze and have to sacrifice utlity slots in order to use more ccs. zerker has been buffed a lot and propably exceeds in both dmg and cc in the same scenario. that's just my assumption. bs has to delay for their payout while zerkers can have an instant feedback for their playstyle.

It is just a tremendously funny situation because Daze spam Mesmer still exists, also immob spam druids, but no. Bladesworn can't have Unyielding Dragon with a stun. Unhealthy gameplay.

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