Are core builds completely irrelevant?

[vcxxx.3159]

I've been playing sPVP since 2014 and just came back after a four year break. 

I've played nearly every core build really well. My main has always been Mesmer with around 5,000 games, and every other class around 500-1000 games.

I was very enamored by the combat system in this game coming from WoW due to the dodge roll and being able to move while casting. I thought that was really cool. Like I said earlier I've played basically every Power/ Condi/ Bunker variation for every class. I thought that was really neat how the different weapons could result in different play-styles. There was a point between 2014-2016 where I was pretty infamous as a dueling Mesmer and had people inviting me to join their ESL teams. I used to be in a guild that did 5-mans on comms and we'd win pretty much 90% of the time.

But things have really seemed to change. When I logged in a few days ago I tried my dueling build that facilitated my fame and it didn't go well (Domination/ Dueling/ Illusions - Sword/ Pistol, Scepter/ Sword. Berserker Amulet/ Rune of the Traveler). Nowadays it seems like every class has access to AOE bursts, blocks, and invulnerability. I feel like this started with Dragon Hunter being able to 1-shot people with traps and has permeated to all classes now. Condi pressure is insane now too. I've had multiple deaths where I check the log and it's literally 16,000 damage from burning or bleeds but it doesn't even tick, it's like instant death. I also think 11,000 damage from a single DH trap should be mentioned here too.

It just doesn't make sense to me honestly. AOE attacks should, by their nature, be less powerful with the advantage that they hit 5 players. Direct damage attacks don't even seem to register with the proliferation of every class having blocks and invuln.

I got roflstomped trying to play power necro yesterday so I'm trying my old AH shout guard build today but I've gotten instakilled doing that too.

I've noticed that people don't generally target (or fight on point) and I'm wondering if that's a symptom of every class just being able to burst people with AOEs.

What happened to minion mancers and DD celes? What happened to turret and kit engis? Why do people AFK when they see me playing power core mes? Are core builds completely irrelevant?

[Sahne.6950]

welcome to 2023 gw2.

Everything you said is 100% true and the current state of the game.  Thats why its dead.

 

The whole game evolves around who can chain their blocks/invulns the longest, and who can burst the other one down faster when these blocks/invulns run out. The more braindead your build is... the better....   fastpaced highskill builds are mostly dead...   i mean... they can work.. but why put in 10 times the effort when you can just play Condizerker and facetank everything.

We have reached a point where visual clutter and AoE-spam is so apparent and to make matters worse, there is literally no corellation between visibility of a skill and its impact anymore. A Catalyst will throw a giant firesphere with a big phoenix animation in it and it deals literal 7 damage.... after that he slightly raises his hammer and you Eat a 6-7k triple sear. loosing half your health without any visual tell other than that he slightly raises his hammer.

Just to give another example of the bad visuals.....Stabilityspam is everywhere, but it has 0 animation... so it forces you to actually look at the opponents boonbar constantly to know if you can CC them or not. Its at a point where i spent 50% of a fight just monitoring my and the enemys boons. 

Core builds are also mostly dead.  mayyybe core mesmer can work... somewhat... idk... not rly tho....  maybe core necro....  but you wont have alot of success with them no matter how good you play, you will simply crumble if you meet someone on a metabuild.     

Builds that were good at a older time, like yours,  all have received a nerf in the good old anet fashion.  They have a tendency to not nerf strong builds... they wil just straight up delete them, because they cant figure out to make them healthy... they just rather delete them and get rid of the problem. ESPECIALL FOR MESMER!        

There is builds and whole archetypes that have just completly vanished..... and no word or mention or hope that they will ever come back.   

 

You have your 5-10 builds that can be considered metaviable... and everything else is quite literally wintrading xD   Thats why people will simply go afk if they see a core mesmer... they expect to loose... and rather go make a sandwich in the meantime.

Thats what gw2 has become.    

welcome back. 😘

Edited December 1, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Chase.8415]

To be fair you can sort of predict when stability is going to be used based off the build you are fighting and in general if you are being stunned, there is most likely going to be a huge burst after that so you need to use stun break and dodge immediately. That works even against plat players, their rotation is rather predictable a lot of times. Top players wont be that obvious, but generally speaking if you're stunned for any reason you need to get out of it as quickly as possible

[Nabbut.7480]

Just get dropped to the lower leagues, damage is much less there.

[Eddie.9143]

Not at all, since soto and being able to use all the weapons, core has become MUCH more viable.

 

Mesmer, necro, rev, and engi specifically 

[ccccc.4963]

No just the players they attract generally 

[Buran.3796]

In coordinated teams core Guardian is still very, very strong, as the last MAT showcased.

Some other core builds as Necro can do well, albeit the power creep nature of the specs means that usually the latest additions have advantages over the older designs, yes.

[Widdershins.6824]

3 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

In coordinated teams core Guardian is still very, very strong, as the last MAT showcased.

Some other core builds as Necro can do well, albeit the power creep nature of the specs means that usually the latest additions have advantages over the older designs, yes.

This is true.
I've seen almost all core specs since I've returned 1 week ago in spvp around gold level.
My opinion is the same: new specs are easier, but older ones are just as viable.
Oh and condition builds are too strong but that's just a me issue.
Gw2 pvp in its worst state is much-much better than any other mmo's pvp by a mile.

[Khalisto.5780]

I feel core guard, ranger and now warrior with the recent buffs are playable. Everything else os y tier, core ele and engi are z tier.

[Sinister.5792]

nah, I play core thief in ranked matches and I destroy people with it..

[arazoth.7290]

2 hours ago, Sinister.5792 said:

nah, I play core thief in ranked matches and I destroy people with it..

don't make me throw my hammer at you!

[asket.5674]

On 12/1/2023 at 11:30 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

welcome to 2023 gw2.

Everything you said is 100% true and the current state of the game.  Thats why its dead.

 

The whole game evolves around who can chain their blocks/invulns the longest, and who can burst the other one down faster when these blocks/invulns run out. The more braindead your build is... the better....   fastpaced highskill builds are mostly dead...   i mean... they can work.. but why put in 10 times the effort when you can just play Condizerker and facetank everything.

We have reached a point where visual clutter and AoE-spam is so apparent and to make matters worse, there is literally no corellation between visibility of a skill and its impact anymore. A Catalyst will throw a giant firesphere with a big phoenix animation in it and it deals literal 7 damage.... after that he slightly raises his hammer and you Eat a 6-7k triple sear. loosing half your health without any visual tell other than that he slightly raises his hammer.

Just to give another example of the bad visuals.....Stabilityspam is everywhere, but it has 0 animation... so it forces you to actually look at the opponents boonbar constantly to know if you can CC them or not. Its at a point where i spent 50% of a fight just monitoring my and the enemys boons. 

Core builds are also mostly dead.  mayyybe core mesmer can work... somewhat... idk... not rly tho....  maybe core necro....  but you wont have alot of success with them no matter how good you play, you will simply crumble if you meet someone on a metabuild.     

Builds that were good at a older time, like yours,  all have received a nerf in the good old anet fashion.  They have a tendency to not nerf strong builds... they wil just straight up delete them, because they cant figure out to make them healthy... they just rather delete them and get rid of the problem. ESPECIALL FOR MESMER!        

There is builds and whole archetypes that have just completly vanished..... and no word or mention or hope that they will ever come back.   

 

You have your 5-10 builds that can be considered metaviable... and everything else is quite literally wintrading xD   Thats why people will simply go afk if they see a core mesmer... they expect to loose... and rather go make a sandwich in the meantime.

Thats what gw2 has become.    

welcome back. 😘

Thats a very nice take. Especially the part on the readability of animations. I am used to do this but I cant wrap my eyes and hands about this in gw 2 at least not in a matter that satisfy me and give me a feeling of control. Its really hard in duels but i guess i am just getting old and have no chance in closing that gap as a rather new player. 

[Remus Darkblight.1673]

I get on quite well with core engi, granted it's a condi spec, but it's fun.

[deathdealer.2197]

On 12/2/2023 at 6:46 AM, ccccc.4963 said:

No just the players they attract generally 

Found the guy who rages at new players without expacsplaying core classes

[ccccc.4963]

11 hours ago, deathdealer.2197 said:

Found the guy who rages at new players without expacsplaying core classes

Find me who asked

[Flowki.7194]

At least from what ive played there are quite a few effective core builds.

Core gaurd, condi thief, necro, ranger, rev. The best all rounder I found was rev vent/mallyx, it can fill the roles of healing/condi dps/roam/1v1, with a lot of CC+poison queen procs all in 1 build, its clense would also be good if condi builds like zerker etc where not completely out of hand. I can give you the build if you convo me in-game.

 

Core scepter/dagger ele is  good spike burst (fire/lightning/arcane), but its FA power, not forgiving at all with 11k hp. Like you have seen, there is so much block/invuln/aoe spam, your burst windows are absolutely tiny.. and you can still die when doing everything right as specs like necro can litterally face tank your entire burst window, while you jump through multiple hoops (like double chaining arcane shields) just to not die while doing it.

I tried a little core mesmer, but chrono extra speed+quickness+split just felt way superior (not that Im great at mesmer).

 

Unless im mistaken though, only core garud support has been the spec that can handle high level play. I don't know if that has changed now.

Edited December 8, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[vcxxx.3159]

Update:

Shortly after writing this thread I changed to PU Shatter Mes (which just so happens to be rated Great on metabattle) and did ok for a while. I climbed up to 1350 until I went on two consecutive 7 loss streaks (I was playing on the weekend). So I changed my approach, here's a little backstory:

I've been grinding PVE for a month or so to build HOPE and trying to get weapon mastery achievements so I started using axe. I was pretty amazed when the axe 3 skill was criting mobs for 8k and thought it might work in PVP. Needless to say, it didn't, but I tweaked the build again and again until I found a reliable condi Mirage build.

I'm using Axe/ Pistol + Scepter/ Sword and it's really fun to play. I use the swashbuckler's amulet, rune of the traveler, and agony and torment runes. With the PU build I was basically trading wins but with this condi/ power build I'm winning around 70-80% of the time. I use the dodge rolls offensively with the Scepter to get additional Torment stacks and the disengage targeting from Axe 3 is pretty useful for survival.

I still run into issues with Dragon Hunters if I get targeted by their F1 and pulled into traps. Especially if they get me before I can spawn a clone to trigger the traps. Also, the Ele's magnetic shield can really mess up my rotation if the whole team gets the buff.

The build in general works really well in the meta because it doesn't rely on a massive 1 time burst to bring enemies down. The condi pressure is pretty good even though I'm only utilizing 500 condi damage and if I can get the whole team to suffer from Torment and Bleeds it usually causes them to panic and wipe. Even if an enemy is utilizing lots of condi clear, the majority of the damage comes from shatters and Axe/ Scepter 3.

My only gripe is the shadowstep from the axe is a little wonky. It doesn't work as well as Sword 3 imo.

[Eddie.9143]

Keep practicing and eventually you'll figure out the truly frustrating mirage builds

[Psycoprophet.8107]

19 hours ago, vcxxx.3159 said:

Update:

Shortly after writing this thread I changed to PU Shatter Mes (which just so happens to be rated Great on metabattle) and did ok for a while. I climbed up to 1350 until I went on two consecutive 7 loss streaks (I was playing on the weekend). So I changed my approach, here's a little backstory:

I've been grinding PVE for a month or so to build HOPE and trying to get weapon mastery achievements so I started using axe. I was pretty amazed when the axe 3 skill was criting mobs for 8k and thought it might work in PVP. Needless to say, it didn't, but I tweaked the build again and again until I found a reliable condi Mirage build.

I'm using Axe/ Pistol + Scepter/ Sword and it's really fun to play. I use the swashbuckler's amulet, rune of the traveler, and agony and torment runes. With the PU build I was basically trading wins but with this condi/ power build I'm winning around 70-80% of the time. I use the dodge rolls offensively with the Scepter to get additional Torment stacks and the disengage targeting from Axe 3 is pretty useful for survival.

I still run into issues with Dragon Hunters if I get targeted by their F1 and pulled into traps. Especially if they get me before I can spawn a clone to trigger the traps. Also, the Ele's magnetic shield can really mess up my rotation if the whole team gets the buff.

The build in general works really well in the meta because it doesn't rely on a massive 1 time burst to bring enemies down. The condi pressure is pretty good even though I'm only utilizing 500 condi damage and if I can get the whole team to suffer from Torment and Bleeds it usually causes them to panic and wipe. Even if an enemy is utilizing lots of condi clear, the majority of the damage comes from shatters and Axe/ Scepter 3.

My only gripe is the shadowstep from the axe is a little wonky. It doesn't work as well as Sword 3 imo.

Try dagger, pistol/staff chaos mirage with akeem, lynx and carrion. Use blink, jaunt, midnight sig and ambush. It's been great for me so far.

[Loboling.5293]

Core builds work just fine for some classes. I can personally attest that core power ele, while incredibly difficult to play is viable and lots of fun, and can be played as team damage. Core ranger is also viable as a roamer. Core guardian can play support. Core thief works as a roamer. 

Otherwise, all the other classes can play, but at reduced efficiency. 

I'd say the next one's with a chance are core rev and warrior. 

Mesmer and engie would be a bit of a gimmick and necro would be dog kitten. 

 

Still anything is possible in the game mode, just depends on your bracket. In silver and gold, all are viable if you're just having fun. But Mesmer, engie and necro start to fall off in gold. Rev and warrior is kind of similar.

 

The rest can surely hit platinum with enough notice skill.

 

So your options are ele, guardian, ranger, thief if you want to win.

Rev, warrior if you want a chance.

And Mesmer, necro, engie if you want a gimmick build to mess around with. Probably some good one shots for Mesmer and engie you could pull it off. Not sure how to build a core necro.

[Yerlock.4678]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:53 PM, vcxxx.3159 said:

I've been playing sPVP since 2014 and just came back after a four year break. 

I've played nearly every core build really well. My main has always been Mesmer with around 5,000 games, and every other class around 500-1000 games.

I was very enamored by the combat system in this game coming from WoW due to the dodge roll and being able to move while casting. I thought that was really cool. Like I said earlier I've played basically every Power/ Condi/ Bunker variation for every class. I thought that was really neat how the different weapons could result in different play-styles. There was a point between 2014-2016 where I was pretty infamous as a dueling Mesmer and had people inviting me to join their ESL teams. I used to be in a guild that did 5-mans on comms and we'd win pretty much 90% of the time.

But things have really seemed to change. When I logged in a few days ago I tried my dueling build that facilitated my fame and it didn't go well (Domination/ Dueling/ Illusions - Sword/ Pistol, Scepter/ Sword. Berserker Amulet/ Rune of the Traveler). Nowadays it seems like every class has access to AOE bursts, blocks, and invulnerability. I feel like this started with Dragon Hunter being able to 1-shot people with traps and has permeated to all classes now. Condi pressure is insane now too. I've had multiple deaths where I check the log and it's literally 16,000 damage from burning or bleeds but it doesn't even tick, it's like instant death. I also think 11,000 damage from a single DH trap should be mentioned here too.

It just doesn't make sense to me honestly. AOE attacks should, by their nature, be less powerful with the advantage that they hit 5 players. Direct damage attacks don't even seem to register with the proliferation of every class having blocks and invuln.

I got roflstomped trying to play power necro yesterday so I'm trying my old AH shout guard build today but I've gotten instakilled doing that too.

I've noticed that people don't generally target (or fight on point) and I'm wondering if that's a symptom of every class just being able to burst people with AOEs.

What happened to minion mancers and DD celes? What happened to turret and kit engis? Why do people AFK when they see me playing power core mes? Are core builds completely irrelevant?

 

[Sifolstour.3210]

Besides core support guard that has been running strong since launch i can't think about others. That doesn't mean that you cant play them, but by any means they are meta.

[ToffeeLatte.8243]

On 12/1/2023 at 10:30 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

The whole game evolves around who can chain their blocks/invulns the longest, and who can burst the other one down faster when these blocks/invulns run out. The more braindead your build is... the better....   fastpaced highskill builds are mostly dead...   i mean... they can work.. but why put in 10 times the effort when you can just play Condizerker and facetank everything.

And the worst part is, you'll be hard pressed to find a Warrior main who actually wants to play Condizerk, yet in terms of the meta it's the best hand we've been dealt for sPvP all expansion when I'm sure many of us would just rather they stopped kittening around with Bladesworn and Power Zerk, the latter being an especially big issue in itself because why play power zerk when you can lick your keyboard as condizerk, be near immortal and still probably do the same damage.

[Shagie.7612]

10 minutes ago, ToffeeLatte.8243 said:

you'll be hard pressed to find a Warrior main who actually wants to play Condizerk

oof why hurt me like this
though i haven't played war in a long time specifically because i don't like the changes

i think being a big angry guy who gets so mad you light yourself on fire is cool
like krieg in borderlands 😞

[ToffeeLatte.8243]

14 hours ago, Shagie.7612 said:

oof why hurt me like this
though i haven't played war in a long time specifically because i don't like the changes

i think being a big angry guy who gets so mad you light yourself on fire is cool
like krieg in borderlands 😞

Thing is that isn't even a good build anymore (the one with king of fires, torch etc). I actually enjoyed that version of condi zerk. It's this bow kitten that feels so pedestrian to play.

Edited December 30, 2023 by ToffeeLatte.8243