Reaper DPS needs to be toned down

[asket.5674]

On 12/5/2023 at 7:13 PM, Vinny.7260 said:

nerf ele buff chill

Chill ele, buff nerf

[Flowki.7194]

12 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

I have no idea what you're really getting at here.  Bottom line up front:  Thief is the core sin of GW2's low skill ceiling due to how it broke the limitations of other classes with unbridled saturation of teleports and freebie risk mitigation enabled by a flavor-over-function "design" concept and the initiative system.  Instead of addressing this, a shortsighted anet just made more thieves:

Rev is a better/easier thief.  Soulbeast is the ranger's thief.  WB is the guardian's thief.  Mesmer eventually became pink thief after their cooldowns shrunk and they got more options to layer incoming effect mitigation over outing burst windows.  Engineer doesn't necessarily spam teleporting damage, but the excessive superspeed and long block windows layered over damage serves the same purpose; both holo and scrapper are thief.  Warrior also has two thieves with SB and, to a lesser degree, BS (but the latter also just recovers health quickly without any risky inputs or interactive game elements more than it outright negates incoming damage).

These classes often eat reaper (or never die to it) because reaper has to SOMEWHAT commit to ranged or melee damage within 10s cooldown windows (form or weapons), and it can't teleport freely to catch up if people blink out of range.  This means that all of the thief derivatives have huge opportunity windows during which they can attack mostly with impunity while the reaper cannot interact.  Does this mean that reaper's damage ISN'T overtuned?  Those two elements aren't mutually inclusive:  reaper damage is stupid high and busted; classes that eat reaper's lunch just invalidate risk, effort, timing and positioning altogether without trying because they're all mostly just copies of each other.

GW2 is jacked up because, yes, those builds exist because every class has one; they aren't interesting to interact with; the player base doesn't want risk; and now the vestiges of the original "attrition class" is the gatekeeper between "new, generic, bland trash with zero effort" and "weird attempts at experimentation and iteration in an extremely shallow and solved PvP mini game."

 

 

 

Actaully I would say the game is more so pushing power and condi bomb dps into the willbender playstyle; Front loaded blocks/invuln/mitigation while spewing out easy damage. However, sPVP is about 1v1 sides, AND group fight "zergs". The current most used side node duelists/roamers are mostly all low skill entry and/or low risk (hollow is hard, but in good hands its low risk). The current group fight specs ; basically core gaurds and necros, can all practically AFK face tank >50k damage due to overlapping passive and ground spam AOE utility. Then throw in relics like akeem and cerus, which even further reward such duelist/group specs, with no added extra effort. Firework and demonqueen are not much better, all you do for the relics is pick the one that has the most applicable passive effect on your spec /setandforget for a free upgrade to damage or utility. That would be ok if all specs already had a high skill floor, which 90% don't.. so why give already easy specs yet more passive bs.

 

The game did get harder for active mitigation specs after the relic changes, there was a huge loss to HP and utility, yet a spike in damage/condi bombs, which is not near as felt on classes like warrior, gaurd and necro, which quite litterally have face tank friendly mechanics built into their core abilitys/traits. Is it any suprise the likes of virt and SB are used so much now, its an arms race of what spec is the lowest skill, lowest risk burst for the most effect. That is the direct opposite of what any healthy game and its playerbase should be doing.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

PSA: Current update on Reaper

Reaper has too many CCs after the implementation of Pistol. Half of them are ranged AoEs and the melee range ones last waaay too long. Chilled To The Bone CC melee range 3s should be lowered to 2s. Chilled To The Bone lasts too long for being the lowest risk highest reward CC in the game that also buffs a ton of stability while leaving the opponent chilled nonetheless.

[Dadnir.5038]

• Page 1: Title -> Reaper's dps needs to be toned down.
• Page 2: Reaper's sustain need to be toned down
• Page 3: Reaper's CC need to be toned down.
• Page 4: ???

[felincyriac.5981]

necro is barely viable and you want to nerf it? lol

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

Kitten Reapers teleporting half across map casting 2s elite skill from stealth to 1shot me!
Ranger (with e-speces) that has one of the strongest utilities and weapon skills complain about 0 stealth and 1/16 mobility class.

[Swagg.9236]

5 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Actaully I would say the game is more so pushing power and condi bomb dps into the willbender playstyle; Front loaded blocks/invuln/mitigation while spewing out easy damage. However, sPVP is about 1v1 sides, AND group fight "zergs". The current most used side node duelists/roamers are mostly all low skill entry and/or low risk (hollow is hard, but in good hands its low risk). The current group fight specs ; basically core gaurds and necros, can all practically AFK face tank >50k damage due to overlapping passive and ground spam AOE utility. Then throw in relics like akeem and cerus, which even further reward such duelist/group specs, with no added extra effort. Firework and demonqueen are not much better, all you do for the relics is pick the one that has the most applicable passive effect on your spec /setandforget for a free upgrade to damage or utility. That would be ok if all specs already had a high skill floor, which 90% don't.. so why give already easy specs yet more passive bs.

 

The game did get harder for active mitigation specs after the relic changes, there was a huge loss to HP and utility, yet a spike in damage/condi bombs, which is not near as felt on classes like warrior, gaurd and necro, which quite litterally have face tank friendly mechanics built into their core abilitys/traits. Is it any suprise the likes of virt and SB are used so much now, its an arms race of what spec is the lowest skill, lowest risk burst for the most effect. That is the direct opposite of what any healthy game and its playerbase should be doing.

 

 

That's a good point about how everything is "charge in and spam front-loaded skills ala Willbender," and I would agree; however, the engagement almost always opens up on the back of multiple teleports that don't require any real timing and often overlay damage with incoming effect mitigation.  Yes, the best builds will generally move about as much as a Runescape duel ONCE COMBAT STARTS, but the initial engagement (and often a break-away movement) will be something that negates timing and positioning (generally through teleports or some kind of scripted movement/superspeed with baked-in blocks/evades/invuln).

Warrior, Guard, and Necro are certainly face-tank stars, but are you also really going to deny that every time a ranger, revenant, mesmer or elementalist initiates a burst rotation, they aren't going to do so during a simultaneous window of passive/instant CD pops that are going to mitigate most incoming effect while they spam attacks?  Every class is basically doing the same thing, and it's just that Reaper kind of does it... the worst?  Hence, reaper is the gatekeeper between the braindead meta and anyone else who is just trying to figure out the game or trying to experiment with something that isn't necessarily "facetank with front-loaded attacks and a bunch of panic buttons in reserve."

[Flowki.7194]

1 hour ago, Swagg.9236 said:

That's a good point about how everything is "charge in and spam front-loaded skills ala Willbender," and I would agree; however, the engagement almost always opens up on the back of multiple teleports that don't require any real timing and often overlay damage with incoming effect mitigation.  Yes, the best builds will generally move about as much as a Runescape duel ONCE COMBAT STARTS, but the initial engagement (and often a break-away movement) will be something that negates timing and positioning (generally through teleports or some kind of scripted movement/superspeed with baked-in blocks/evades/invuln).

Warrior, Guard, and Necro are certainly face-tank stars, but are you also really going to deny that every time a ranger, revenant, mesmer or elementalist initiates a burst rotation, they aren't going to do so during a simultaneous window of passive/instant CD pops that are going to mitigate most incoming effect while they spam attacks?  Every class is basically doing the same thing, and it's just that Reaper kind of does it... the worst?  Hence, reaper is the gatekeeper between the braindead meta and anyone else who is just trying to figure out the game or trying to experiment with something that isn't necessarily "facetank with front-loaded attacks and a bunch of panic buttons in reserve."

 

SB is front loaded, no doubt about that, and its easy front loaded, with mostly all track-evade-lock on damage, aside from some GS skills. 

 

Power rev struggles a lot with stability, and what it can get, comes at a great cost to dps (assassin TP is also very costly). No rev build has any "attack while immune", well, aside from staff but its pittiful dmg, just a CC. Vindi and herald are also hard to play, punishing for mistakes, it also does not have any block spam, nion all of its defense is active mitigation, dodging, positioning, and 1 block. Staff blocks don't even count.. I mean, if youre in staff your are no threat at all for 10 seconds (if using staff). The energy costs and stability issues on rev are what actually keep it balanced and also hard to play as you get punished very hard for mistakes. It is the bluebrint for how to balance "TP in and do damage".. unlike SB, 0 downside for spamming hunter/smoke assault, then spamming more track-lock ond abilitys, 0 combos or energy to consider.

 

Ele has some immune, but can't attack back while using it, completely outclassed now. Ele also has the lowest HP in the game (11-13k depending on spec) to play with beserker, like everybody else can with 15k+ (thief aside.. but its thief... steriod level mobility). Nobody is really using focus anymore, dagger OH CC and damage is all close range, massively increasing risk. Even chaining 2x arcane shield+comboing for a shock aura, it very often gets shreded, even in 1v1 depening on the enemy spec. If you TP in, you then only have 1 escape, ride the wind, which is short range, many specs can catch that (So I rarely TP in for that reason). Power ele is a bit like chrono, only it is forced into melee range to do any significant dmg, which kinde sucks, like I said, even double arcane shields get shreded in under 2 seconds, its not comparable at all to invuln. You have to be ready to TP out in a split second.. its litterally a 0.2 second death if a decent player pressures you in a group fight, or you don't realise shields are down in 1v1.

 

Chrono at-least has to sacrafice clones to extend invuln, but even still.. attacking while immune is kitten, virt takes that to a whole new level.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Sahne.6950]

10 hours ago, Swagg.9236 said:

the best builds will generally move about as much as a Runescape duel

You apparently havent fought a MSB/AGS pure yet XD   they be zoomin.

 

 

[Sahne.6950]

9 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Nobody is really using focus anymore

Why wont you use focus anymore?

Focus is handsdown the most bloated weapon in all of gw2, with exactly 0 nerfs in the last few years. XD 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Dadnir.5038]

12 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Kitten Reapers teleporting half across map

Humm... Reaper's mobility... Good idea, keep it for page 4!

[Frequency.6407]

16 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

• Page 1: Title -> Reaper's dps needs to be toned down.
• Page 2: Reaper's sustain need to be toned down
• Page 3: Reaper's CC need to be toned down.
• Page 4: ???

Page 5: Reaper's downstate needs to be toned down.

[Sahne.6950]

17 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

PSA: Current update on Reaper

Reaper has too many CCs after the implementation of Pistol. Half of them are ranged AoEs and the melee range ones last waaay too long. Chilled To The Bone CC melee range 3s should be lowered to 2s. Chilled To The Bone lasts too long for being the lowest risk highest reward CC in the game that also buffs a ton of stability while leaving the opponent chilled nonetheless.

about what build are we talking exactly trevor?   Because you keep on mixing 3 different Reaper builds into one imaginary overpowered build, without giving any actual hint on what build you are exactly mad about.

Can you like link the actual build you think is overperforming, and then point at the areas you are struggling with?

[Vinny.7260]

2 hours ago, Frequency.6407 said:

Page 5: Reaper's downstate needs to be toned down.

Page 6: Reaper's effects are too distracting

[Flowki.7194]

8 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Why wont you use focus anymore?

Focus is handsdown the most bloated weapon in all of gw2, with exactly 0 nerfs in the last few years. XD 

Im saying what I see (roughly 3-400 games this season), 95% of ele I have played against are using dagger OH, including myself (EU). The mobility in the game has increased, focus offers better mitigation but at the cost of damage and mobility, you get +1'd or can't escape near as easy now (superspeed alone is not like it use to be). Ele immunes are good, nothing wrong with them.. but they are simply outclassed now by immunes that allow the continuation of burst. X spec can burst you while immune, if you counter pop with immune then ofc its  like for like. However.. if ele immune is on CD, they have a clear advantedge if they have theirs to use, becuase they can still attack while taking no damage, and other CDs are resetting. If their immune is on CD, yet the ele has it to use, who cares? ele cannot attack while immune, and their CD's (including immunes they can burst with) are cooling down along with the eles, you see what I mean? It tips the balance of many engagements, pressure is important, and attacking while immune gives such specs a clear pressure advantedge in many situations.

 

Most focus setups will have 2 immunes they can't attack back with (3 if using earthern shield but you never really see that now). Most current specs have access to 2+ blocks/immunes they can attack during, while warrior and virt have more ontop of that, hollow and warrior can also just leave the fight at will if youre on focus (as can many other specs). More blocks/invulns + more mobility than focus ele, its not hard math. Hammer cata falls to the same weakness of mobility, easy to get +1d on sides, or people just leave/reset the fight if losing. Its clense is not great in group fights given all the condi bomb and likes ok cerus relic, making you completely dependent on support.. or forever in "combo sustain mode". Somebody called this the mobility creep, and its real, along with the low skill attack while immune creep.. and low skill condi bomb creep.

 

There are a number of specs like hollow, virt, warrior in general where you have small dps windows between all the blocks/invulns, target drops or mobility resets. Using focus offhand reduces your spike burst to actually get kills during those small windows.This is not pre-cata nerf power meta anymore.. things have changed. If the focus is so bloated, yet 95% of eles I come across don't use it anymore (despite a big rise in LB rangers), then that speaks volumes for how bloated other specs are becoming, wouldnt you say?

 

I can upload a vid of exactly this creep in action. On LB ranger a BS attacked me, but landed on my trap, I placed another trap, and beside all the track/auto lock damage of sword/horn-smoke he took 22k melee range dmg, and didnt have any oppertunity to attack back. At that point I still have entangle roots for 0 0 0, but he ran away. I could also be using bear for more 0 0 0. This + evade damage accumulates to around 10 seconds of complete physical immunity while doing high melee range damage, before the use of insant stability, and this isnt even an optimal SB build. You go ahead and show me any ele build that can pull that off, and with such ease.. the SB build is also full glass with almost 16k hp, ele on the same comparison is at 11-13k, litteral high risk of being 1 or 2 shotted at any moment. And you think focus is bloated?

Edited December 11, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

about what build are we talking exactly trevor?   Because you keep on mixing 3 different Reaper builds into one imaginary overpowered build, without giving any actual hint on what build you are exactly mad about.

Every build uses Pistol/Staff Chilled To The Bone. I said what I meant the first time around.

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Can you like link the actual build you think is overperforming, and then point at the areas you are struggling with?

The builds in use are essentially the same build. They swap small aspects from match to match to slightly better adjust for particular matchups, which Reaper is very good at doing. Necro in general is good at doing this, probably its biggest strength it has actually. It is very easy to swap a trait or two or even a full trait line, while maintaining essentially the same build structure. The variations they use are not 3 different builds, they are suggested skill/trait swaps for the same build, to toggle match to match. Anyone looking at this from the standpoint of: "What exact single build selection of traits/skills/weapons is the problem?" Is not understanding the strength behind Necro's swap versatility and how the game is being played today to capitalize on that strength. Most other classes don't possess this kind of versatility & ease of swap adjustment. Usually, if a class/build were to swap a single trait line or a utility or two, these are massive changes to the build archetype that risks completely destroying the dynamic flow of what the original build was meant to do and needs to do to be successful. But this is not a problem at all on Necromancer. In the case of just utilities as example, a Necromancer stands only to benefit when it readjusts its utility line for the current match it is facing. It has this plethora of very useful utilities that do not effect its build structure at all outside of "What is best to bring for this match?" <- This is actually GOOD game design and the way other classes SHOULD work. But this is not the way other classes work. Other classes/builds very strongly get pigeonholed into needing to bring certain things or the build archetype just falls apart. So in this regard, Necromancer can so to say: "rock/paper/scissors itself around the current matchup" in ways that other classes cannot, concerning what options it is able to bring. My point being in explaining this, is that this is happening on what is considered the same build archetype, and that is a power/condi hybrid damage Reaper that uses pistol / staff / chilledtothebone. They have all of these skills to mix in and out depending on what they need in the current match up, and it doesn't effect the primary build structure at all:

1. Well Of Corruption "boon corrupts"
2. Well Of Darkness "blinding chilling bleeding damage"
3. Boon Corrupt "direct 3 boon corrupt skill 2x ammo"
4. Spectral Ring "mass AoE control skill"
5. Spectral Grasp "mass life force generation CC, fill your bar to full instantly in a team fight"
6. Spectral Armor "protection, stun break, life force generation"
7. Plague Signet "bounces back condis to target and is a stun break"
8. Of course Spectral Walk "mass condi cleanse, stun break, life force generation, return teleport"
9. Of course Wurm "stun break return teleport, can be used for forward teleport"
10. Nothing Can Save You "unblockable shout"

Good Reaper players toggle all of this stuff in & out from match to match depending on what they need or what will be most useful, and it doesn't effect the primary build structure at all. Again, point being, is that a pistol staff chilled to the bone Reaper wielding power/condi damage is the same build regardless of what he's toggling per the given match he's in. A Reaper changing his skills is nothing like alteration of say a Warrior choosing to take Bull's Charge or not, which largely immediately declares if the War build is offensive roamer or some kind of defensive bunker. In the case of other classes, a single utility swap changes everything and forces mandatory changes in other places that if you don't adjust, the build will just be dysfunctional.

IE: If I had you in a match and I knew we needed someone to push side node against your Ele all game, I'd simply take every obnoxious anti-ele option possible + speed relic. There wouldn't be anything you could do about it on node and you wouldn't be able to disengage me with a single flash due to the speed relic + ranged CCs + shroud 2 + wurm if I chose to bring it. Reaper can adjust itself to hard counter almost every class build this way. The only things I have not been able to adjust to and absolutely destroy with these current Reaper builds, are specifically Thieves. Thief is the last class left that has enough mobility to just stay away from the Reaper's bully stature. I'm actually fairly certain that if we ran another 1v1 season, the Reaper would likely be the dominant 1v1. It would have difficult match ups against Thief but it would win in the end through defensive play being in those small arenas. In normal conquest map though, a Thief doesn't need to ever be caught by a Necro.

But yeah, the list of CCs that pistol staff chilled to the bone is pumping out in a continuous cycle is just OP dude:

1. Vile Blast - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 1s stun 12s CD 10s CD with trait - 900 range 180 radius AoE
2. Wail of Doom - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 600 range cone 1s fear 24s CD AoE or Oppressive Collapse - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 900 range 2s knockdown 20s CD - and if you don't take these options you bring Lesser Spinal Shivers - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for big damage and boon hate every 20s CD to make sure you rip stability so your other CCs hit.
3. Reaper's Mark - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 1s fear 18s CD - 1200 range 300 radius AoE - often unblockable
4. Terrify - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 1s fear 25s CD 22s CD with trait 360 radius AoE
5. Executioner's Scythe - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) says it applies 2.5s stun for pvp split 30s CD 25s CD with trait but what it actually applies is a special ultimate CC named Reaper's Frost - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) that also pulses chill. For some reason they don't list the range/radius on this skill in the wiki but has got to be around 360+ range and the hit radius around 180 where it strikes.
6. "Chilled to the Bone!" - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 2s or 3s stun which is actually Reaper's Frost - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) on a 48s CD range 600 AoE also goes vertical for that range.
7. In most matches you can afford to bring Spectral Ring - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) a 900 range massive unblockable 1s fear ring that lasts 8 seconds on a 40s CD. This CC is so powerful it can immediately momentum shift a losing 1v1 into a winning 1v1 or even a losing team fight into a winning team fight. This is arguably the strongest CC in the game for several reasons, but primarily because it is a ground force effect that does not allow evade frames to surpass it. You need straight stability or a very well timed single stun break sometimes double stun break to get out of this or you're stuck for 8 seconds.
8. All of this is just the hard CC it has ^ Do I need to go into the ridiculous amount of soft CC that Reaper is pushing out? Do we really consider Chill a soft CC at this point? Chill is a very powerful effect and when something is pumping it out with nearly 100% uptime, is that even soft CC at that point? Something to think about.

If we were to run a thorough examination of CC rotations, I'm sure the modern Reaper can throw a hard CC at opponents about every 3 seconds continuously on a cycle that doesn't end, on top of perpetual Chill application. Come on now. And then you throw Demon Queen on top of all that CC on top of the poison it already naturally applies, for additional poison applications at a -50% heal function, and you're gonna tell me you don't think this is the most enormous power creep we've ever seen a class undergo? There is A LOT of hidden damage in all that perpetual poison application at -50% man. Reaper has too much CC and is dealing extreme damage values on its own, but when we introduce DQ relic, the kill value it possesses becomes insanely bloated.

I don't know why you keep trying to cheap shot my skill factor with comments like "are you gold?" "tell us what you're struggling with?" come on dude. I don't do things like that to you, I don't know why lately you've regressed to doing things like this to me. I've already told you, I don't have problems with Reaper. Lately I run either LB Soulbeast as roamer which still handles them in 1v1s and for quickly picking them off, or a Bunker Support Druid that at the worst, holds a node under them even if I can't kill them, but usually they have to retreat or they'll die to attrition over time when shroud drops. I've already told you, my basis for these discussions in this thread is coming from what I see when running AT teams with other players. Regardless of if we are winning or losing a match, I notice that team fights are 90% decided on how many Reapers are present. It's true. You get 2x Reapers in the same team fight and then all of that hard & soft CC we just went over, turns into x2 output and it's just too much man. When both of them are running DQ relic, it's just too much ultra-benefits for a single class to have over other classes. All you have to do is cheese stack Tempest Sup with Guard Sup and 2x Reaper with w/e else you want as your 5th, and I'm telling you I don't care what metabattle says right now, that is the meta team comp. The 2x Reapers will have all the DPS & CC you need, and killing them is obnoxiously difficult when 2x Sup is present. The Reapers also possess so much AoE that provide easy cover for the Supports so it is highly unrealistic to target the Supports. And between all the stab coming off the Supports and the Reaper's themselves, you like can't CC anything, but they are tossing AoE CCs at you like every 2s is some massive ****ing AoE 2-3 second stun or knockdown that hits everyone in the team fight while perpetually applying perma poison at -50% heal. When you hear me talk about this Reaper stuff, I'm not talking about side node 1v1s dude. I'm talking about their snowball team fight value. It's just bloated as hell right now. Also, a great deal of this feedback is from me running Reaper and testing it in various 1v1s against players of all ratings in NA. If you're wise on these Reaper builds and don't overextend into stupid positions while burning important CDs, people simply can't push an offense on you without getting killed in 2s. I'm serious, if you play it ultra defensively/counter-offensively, anyone who tries to be the aggressor vs. the Reaper, is going to get killed. Again, only exception is extreme mobility & ranged DPS which generally only comes from Deadeyes & some other Thief builds if played by the right players.

I think it was Flowki that said it and he's right, Reaper has become the ultimate Gate Keeper Class. It absolutely demands certain aspects out of a class/build to be able to even begin to be able to deal with it, and if a class/build cannot bring those mandatory aspects, it can't be viable in the face of Reaper's current design. This is a problem as it completely denies the majority of options that could be selected to use in the game. No, it isn't just "kind of better than those options" no, it shuts them down completely.

This is what I'm talking about when I made this thread about Reaper. You want to nerf it or power creep other things? Fine, w/e man. Either way, people just want to be able to run stuff that isn't the same pigeonholed builds that you MUST use when some Gate Keeper like current Reaper arises. Right now there are a lot of things that would be semi-viable to run, viable enough to where a good player could outplay a mediocre player, if it weren't for the state of current Reaper. A good example would be a Core War. A great player on a Core War should be able to outplay a mediocre or good player on a Necro. But against Reaper? Nope, not gonna happen. Through sheer virtue of DPS output, hard & soft CC, stab output, the Reaper is going to truck over the Core War unless he just runs away and that's if he even brought options to be able to run from the Reaper "this is gate keeping". A great Core War could outplay many good players on most other classes, but it could never outplay current Reaper due to its insanely bloated close range combat value in 1v1s and team fights. Unless you have brought mandatory mechanics to kite in and out fast enough and/or to out-range the Reaper's mechanics, you will not be able to deal with its numbers output in close range. <- And this right here defines where it is gate keeping. It's forcing a certain of level of enhanced mobility & ranged, and if a class does not possess these, there are no ways to deal with it unless you are greatly outplaying the Reaper or are running some adamantine side node bunker that can't die unless it's getting 2v1'd.

Anyway, this was my "wake-up while drinking coffee post" for the morning. Time to do something else now.

[Axelteas.7192]

Imagine asking nerfs for the innofensive reaper and dont mentioning the kitten brokenbender.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Just now, Axelteas.7192 said:

Imagine asking nerfs for the innofensive reaper and dont mentioning the kitten brokenbender.

Willbender is quite balanced right now, honestly.

[Vinny.7260]

13 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Every build uses Pistol/Staff Chilled To The Bone. I said what I meant the first time around.

The builds in use are essentially the same build. They swap small aspects from match to match to slightly better adjust for particular matchups, which Reaper is very good at doing. Necro in general is good at doing this, probably its biggest strength it has actually. It is very easy to swap a trait or two or even a full trait line, while maintaining essentially the same build structure. The variations they use are not 3 different builds, they are suggested skill/trait swaps for the same build, to toggle match to match. Anyone looking at this from the standpoint of: "What exact single build selection of traits/skills/weapons is the problem?" Is not understanding the strength behind Necro's swap versatility and how the game is being played today to capitalize on that strength. Most other classes don't possess this kind of versatility & ease of swap adjustment. Usually, if a class/build were to swap a single trait line or a utility or two, these are massive changes to the build archetype that risks completely destroying the dynamic flow of what the original build was meant to do and needs to do to be successful. But this is not a problem at all on Necromancer. In the case of just utilities as example, a Necromancer stands only to benefit when it readjusts its utility line for the current match it is facing. It has this plethora of very useful utilities that do not effect its build structure at all outside of "What is best to bring for this match?" <- This is actually GOOD game design and the way other classes SHOULD work. But this is not the way other classes work. Other classes/builds very strongly get pigeonholed into needing to bring certain things or the build archetype just falls apart. So in this regard, Necromancer can so to say: "rock/paper/scissors itself around the current matchup" in ways that other classes cannot, concerning what options it is able to bring. My point being in explaining this, is that this is happening on what is considered the same build archetype, and that is a power/condi hybrid damage Reaper that uses pistol / staff / chilledtothebone. They have all of these skills to mix in and out depending on what they need in the current match up, and it doesn't effect the primary build structure at all:

1. Well Of Corruption "boon corrupts"
2. Well Of Darkness "blinding chilling bleeding damage"
3. Boon Corrupt "direct 3 boon corrupt skill 2x ammo"
4. Spectral Ring "mass AoE control skill"
5. Spectral Grasp "mass life force generation CC, fill your bar to full instantly in a team fight"
6. Spectral Armor "protection, stun break, life force generation"
7. Plague Signet "bounces back condis to target and is a stun break"
8. Of course Spectral Walk "mass condi cleanse, stun break, life force generation, return teleport"
9. Of course Wurm "stun break return teleport, can be used for forward teleport"
10. Nothing Can Save You "unblockable shout"

Good Reaper players toggle all of this stuff in & out from match to match depending on what they need or what will be most useful, and it doesn't effect the primary build structure at all. Again, point being, is that a pistol staff chilled to the bone Reaper wielding power/condi damage is the same build regardless of what he's toggling per the given match he's in. A Reaper changing his skills is nothing like alteration of say a Warrior choosing to take Bull's Charge or not, which largely immediately declares if the War build is offensive roamer or some kind of defensive bunker. In the case of other classes, a single utility swap changes everything and forces mandatory changes in other places that if you don't adjust, the build will just be dysfunctional.

IE: If I had you in a match and I knew we needed someone to push side node against your Ele all game, I'd simply take every obnoxious anti-ele option possible + speed relic. There wouldn't be anything you could do about it on node and you wouldn't be able to disengage me with a single flash due to the speed relic + ranged CCs + shroud 2 + wurm if I chose to bring it. Reaper can adjust itself to hard counter almost every class build this way. The only things I have not been able to adjust to and absolutely destroy with these current Reaper builds, are specifically Thieves. Thief is the last class left that has enough mobility to just stay away from the Reaper's bully stature. I'm actually fairly certain that if we ran another 1v1 season, the Reaper would likely be the dominant 1v1. It would have difficult match ups against Thief but it would win in the end through defensive play being in those small arenas. In normal conquest map though, a Thief doesn't need to ever be caught by a Necro.

But yeah, the list of CCs that pistol staff chilled to the bone is pumping out in a continuous cycle is just OP dude:

1. Vile Blast - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 1s stun 12s CD 10s CD with trait - 900 range 180 radius AoE
2. Wail of Doom - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 600 range cone 1s fear 24s CD AoE or Oppressive Collapse - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 900 range 2s knockdown 20s CD - and if you don't take these options you bring Lesser Spinal Shivers - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) for big damage and boon hate every 20s CD to make sure you rip stability so your other CCs hit.
3. Reaper's Mark - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 1s fear 18s CD - 1200 range 300 radius AoE - often unblockable
4. Terrify - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 1s fear 25s CD 22s CD with trait 360 radius AoE
5. Executioner's Scythe - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) says it applies 2.5s stun for pvp split 30s CD 25s CD with trait but what it actually applies is a special ultimate CC named Reaper's Frost - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) that also pulses chill. For some reason they don't list the range/radius on this skill in the wiki but has got to be around 360+ range and the hit radius around 180 where it strikes.
6. "Chilled to the Bone!" - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) 2s or 3s stun which is actually Reaper's Frost - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) on a 48s CD range 600 AoE also goes vertical for that range.
7. In most matches you can afford to bring Spectral Ring - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) a 900 range massive unblockable 1s fear ring that lasts 8 seconds on a 40s CD. This CC is so powerful it can immediately momentum shift a losing 1v1 into a winning 1v1 or even a losing team fight into a winning team fight. This is arguably the strongest CC in the game for several reasons, but primarily because it is a ground force effect that does not allow evade frames to surpass it. You need straight stability or a very well timed single stun break sometimes double stun break to get out of this or you're stuck for 8 seconds.
8. All of this is just the hard CC it has ^ Do I need to go into the ridiculous amount of soft CC that Reaper is pushing out? Do we really consider Chill a soft CC at this point? Chill is a very powerful effect and when something is pumping it out with nearly 100% uptime, is that even soft CC at that point? Something to think about.

If we were to run a thorough examination of CC rotations, I'm sure the modern Reaper can throw a hard CC at opponents about every 3 seconds continuously on a cycle that doesn't end, on top of perpetual Chill application. Come on now. And then you throw Demon Queen on top of all that CC on top of the poison it already naturally applies, for additional poison applications at a -50% heal function, and you're gonna tell me you don't think this is the most enormous power creep we've ever seen a class undergo? There is A LOT of hidden damage in all that perpetual poison application at -50% man. Reaper has too much CC and is dealing extreme damage values on its own, but when we introduce DQ relic, the kill value it possesses becomes insanely bloated.

I don't know why you keep trying to cheap shot my skill factor with comments like "are you gold?" "tell us what you're struggling with?" come on dude. I don't do things like that to you, I don't know why lately you've regressed to doing things like this to me. I've already told you, I don't have problems with Reaper. Lately I run either LB Soulbeast as roamer which still handles them in 1v1s and for quickly picking them off, or a Bunker Support Druid that at the worst, holds a node under them even if I can't kill them, but usually they have to retreat or they'll die to attrition over time when shroud drops. I've already told you, my basis for these discussions in this thread is coming from what I see when running AT teams with other players. Regardless of if we are winning or losing a match, I notice that team fights are 90% decided on how many Reapers are present. It's true. You get 2x Reapers in the same team fight and then all of that hard & soft CC we just went over, turns into x2 output and it's just too much man. When both of them are running DQ relic, it's just too much ultra-benefits for a single class to have over other classes. All you have to do is cheese stack Tempest Sup with Guard Sup and 2x Reaper with w/e else you want as your 5th, and I'm telling you I don't care what metabattle says right now, that is the meta team comp. The 2x Reapers will have all the DPS & CC you need, and killing them is obnoxiously difficult when 2x Sup is present. The Reapers also possess so much AoE that provide easy cover for the Supports so it is highly unrealistic to target the Supports. And between all the stab coming off the Supports and the Reaper's themselves, you like can't CC anything, but they are tossing AoE CCs at you like every 2s is some massive ****ing AoE 2-3 second stun or knockdown that hits everyone in the team fight while perpetually applying perma poison at -50% heal. When you hear me talk about this Reaper stuff, I'm not talking about side node 1v1s dude. I'm talking about their snowball team fight value. It's just bloated as hell right now. Also, a great deal of this feedback is from me running Reaper and testing it in various 1v1s against players of all ratings in NA. If you're wise on these Reaper builds and don't overextend into stupid positions while burning important CDs, people simply can't push an offense on you without getting killed in 2s. I'm serious, if you play it ultra defensively/counter-offensively, anyone who tries to be the aggressor vs. the Reaper, is going to get killed. Again, only exception is extreme mobility & ranged DPS which generally only comes from Deadeyes & some other Thief builds if played by the right players.

I think it was Flowki that said it and he's right, Reaper has become the ultimate Gate Keeper Class. It absolutely demands certain aspects out of a class/build to be able to even begin to be able to deal with it, and if a class/build cannot bring those mandatory aspects, it can't be viable in the face of Reaper's current design. This is a problem as it completely denies the majority of options that could be selected to use in the game. No, it isn't just "kind of better than those options" no, it shuts them down completely.

This is what I'm talking about when I made this thread about Reaper. You want to nerf it or power creep other things? Fine, w/e man. Either way, people just want to be able to run stuff that isn't the same pigeonholed builds that you MUST use when some Gate Keeper like current Reaper arises. Right now there are a lot of things that would be semi-viable to run, viable enough to where a good player could outplay a mediocre player, if it weren't for the state of current Reaper. A good example would be a Core War. A great player on a Core War should be able to outplay a mediocre or good player on a Necro. But against Reaper? Nope, not gonna happen. Through sheer virtue of DPS output, hard & soft CC, stab output, the Reaper is going to truck over the Core War unless he just runs away and that's if he even brought options to be able to run from the Reaper "this is gate keeping". A great Core War could outplay many good players on most other classes, but it could never outplay current Reaper due to its insanely bloated close range combat value in 1v1s and team fights. Unless you have brought mandatory mechanics to kite in and out fast enough and/or to out-range the Reaper's mechanics, you will not be able to deal with its numbers output in close range. <- And this right here defines where it is gate keeping. It's forcing a certain of level of enhanced mobility & ranged, and if a class does not possess these, there are no ways to deal with it unless you are greatly outplaying the Reaper or are running some adamantine side node bunker that can't die unless it's getting 2v1'd.

Anyway, this was my "wake-up while drinking coffee post" for the morning. Time to do something else now.

The post discusses the strengths and adaptability of the Reaper build in "Guild Wars 2", specifically focusing on its versatility in PvP matches. The author argues that the Reaper, a Necromancer specialization, is particularly strong due to its ability to easily swap skills and traits to counter various opponents without compromising its core build structure. This flexibility allows the Reaper to effectively "rock/paper/scissors" itself around matchups, a capability not shared by most other classes. The build primarily uses Pistol/Staff and the "Chilled to the Bone" skill, alongside a mix of utilities like Well of Corruption, Spectral Ring, and others, which can be adjusted according to the match.

The author notes that the Reaper's strength lies in its continuous cycle of hard and soft crowd control (CC), especially the use of Chill, and its ability to deal significant damage. This makes the Reaper particularly dominant in team fights, where its presence can often decide the outcome. The post also mentions the Demon Queen relic, which further enhances the Reaper's capabilities.

The writer expresses frustration with the Reaper's current state, suggesting it has become a "Gate Keeper Class" that dictates the viability of other classes and builds in the face of its overwhelming power. This dominance, according to the author, limits the diversity of viable builds and strategies in the game. They conclude by calling for a balance adjustment, either through nerfing the Reaper or enhancing other classes, to allow for a wider range of viable playstyles.


Decided to use ChatGPT to summarize it.

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Vinny.7260

At first I laughed, and then it terrified me when I realized how accurate it was.

Wait till this thing has access to game accounts and learns how to play.

Imagine fighting it in something Street Fighter, where it in immediance, reads exactly what you're doing in a nano-second, and know exactly what to do to counter you.

Then we'll see real ape rage come out in human gamers. 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

8 minutes ago, Vinny.7260 said:

The post discusses the strengths and adaptability of the Reaper build in "Guild Wars 2", specifically focusing on its versatility in PvP matches. The author argues that the Reaper, a Necromancer specialization, is particularly strong due to its ability to easily swap skills and traits to counter various opponents without compromising its core build structure. This flexibility allows the Reaper to effectively "rock/paper/scissors" itself around matchups, a capability not shared by most other classes. The build primarily uses Pistol/Staff and the "Chilled to the Bone" skill, alongside a mix of utilities like Well of Corruption, Spectral Ring, and others, which can be adjusted according to the match.

The author notes that the Reaper's strength lies in its continuous cycle of hard and soft crowd control (CC), especially the use of Chill, and its ability to deal significant damage. This makes the Reaper particularly dominant in team fights, where its presence can often decide the outcome. The post also mentions the Demon Queen relic, which further enhances the Reaper's capabilities.

The writer expresses frustration with the Reaper's current state, suggesting it has become a "Gate Keeper Class" that dictates the viability of other classes and builds in the face of its overwhelming power. This dominance, according to the author, limits the diversity of viable builds and strategies in the game. They conclude by calling for a balance adjustment, either through nerfing the Reaper or enhancing other classes, to allow for a wider range of viable playstyles.


Decided to use ChatGPT to summarize it.

 

*Distant snort, leaves room in a hurry*

I will say this though. rock/paper/scissors should be the end goal for every class on this game. If you're losing a matchup, there should be a build you can make on that class that allows you to flip it. 

I still don't think Reaper is the arbiter of this, but that balance direction is fine.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

You guys sling too much dirt at me lately.

It's odd considering I'm the only person who actually uses the forum for what it was designed for, giving feedback that stirs real game discussion beyond dropping some one liner complaint.

Anyway, I love you guys man, even if you hate me.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

57 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You guys sling too much dirt at me lately.

It's odd considering I'm the only person who actually uses the forum for what it was designed for, giving feedback that stirs real game discussion beyond dropping some one liner complaint.

Anyway, I love you guys man, even if you hate me.

We don't hate you, just please condense your posts, is the point. ❤️

I don't think I'd be too off the mark to assume that most people here are super checked out, and while being descriptive rocks, there's an upper limit to how much on the topic of [Class is op] people are willing to digest at once. Besides that, if people were to be checked in it probably wouldn't be because of Reaper, methinks.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

35 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

We don't hate you, just please condense your posts, is the point. ❤️

I don't think I'd be too off the mark to assume that most people here are super checked out, and while being descriptive rocks, there's an upper limit to how much on the topic of [Class is op] people are willing to digest at once. Besides that, if people were to be checked in it probably wouldn't be because of Reaper, methinks.

And I wouldn't be too far off the mark to say that some people actually enjoy participating in real game feedback/discussions beyond singular comments.

Look man, if you haven't noticed in recent years, I don't insult or toss condescending ad-hominem stuff at anyone. If anything, I don't have the warn points left to risk it. I just make very straight forward statements with elaborate explanation behind it. If people don't want to read it, they don't have to. But what you said in your statement here is no justification for being a jerk on a consistent basis to forum users who are actually contributing content in the way it was meant to be contributed.

It gets to where I have to wonder what is going on here behind this forum scene. I'll show up and post actual completely in-game related feedback that is neither negative or aimed at anyone, and that has extreme accuracy in all aspects outside of my own personal view of the topic. Then I'll get 30 confused faces which I'll sit and watch come in waves, where I'll see no emoji responses for 4 hours and then all of a sudden with no thread bump, 6+ users log in at the same time and go to read my topic. Within about 30s to 60s I get 6+ confused faces on every post I've made in the thread and then they log off simultaneously. This is usually followed by a plethora of responses from the same people who have to make sure to post something negative & aggressive to me, regardless of what I have posted. I'm the only person they do this to, and I have to wonder why is it, that if I post things like they do, I get suspensions & warn points, but when they post these things over and over and over continuously, there are never repercussions for them. It makes me wonder, am I really talking with players in here? Or is this some kind of campaign to get me to shut up because some group of people really just doesn't want actual balance discussions happening in this forum. It is also awfully strange that everyone shows up to attack & label me as some kind of villain for giving completely on topic nothing but game related feedback, but no one says anything at all to the people who show up who are actually being jerks, posting nothing but 100% insulting aggressive condescending completely off topic remarks.

No matter how many heart emojis you put into what you say, no matter how smiley-faced you try to word things, and no matter how coy & funny you try to make it look so no one reports it, being a jerk is being a jerk.

You know what though, for whatever reason it may be, no one wants to hear anything I have to say in this forum anymore.

If no one wants me around, I guess won't be.

 

 

[Vinny.7260]

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Vinny.7260

At first I laughed, and then it terrified me when I realized how accurate it was.

Wait till this thing has access to game accounts and learns how to play.

Imagine fighting it in something Street Fighter, where it in immediance, reads exactly what you're doing in a nano-second, and know exactly what to do to counter you.

Then we'll see real ape rage come out in human gamers. 

Heh, yeah. I tend to mess with it fairly often. Quite impressive what all you can do with it. Definitely makes googling information easier.

Spooky stuff.

 

3 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You guys sling too much dirt at me lately.

It's odd considering I'm the only person who actually uses the forum for what it was designed for, giving feedback that stirs real game discussion beyond dropping some one liner complaint.

Anyway, I love you guys man, even if you hate me.

I don't hate ya, if that's any reconciliation. Just friendly jest at most. The longer a forum post gets, the less willing people are able to digest it, therefore unwilling to absorb its information or form a fair opinion on it. Then it turns into the whole 'confused emoji' fiasco.