WvW Skirmish Claim Ticket system and requirement for Conflux.

[TheGrimm.5624]

27 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I'm pretty sure you have to kill the boss to win at Dragon's End, according to last time I was there.

You don't have to kill the boon ball.

The better analogy is that hero point in Auric Basin with the champion guarding it. You don't have to kill the champion to get it-- it is possible to sneak through. Back then when the game was a bit harder. people would complain a lot while banging their head against it. I just stealthed and got it.

The game sometimes demands you use a little problem solving ability.

As a PvXer, man HoT before nerfs was still some of the best times out there. Watching the Pocket raptors tear peeps up. Was amazing. Still favorite release, can't say I have been back to the others as much.

[Chaba.5410]

5 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

Not necessarily. WvW has merit, so it should have its own exclusive shiny reward for people who manage to excel at it, but the acquisition method should be symmetrical with the acquisition method of other game modes' exclusive shinies.

But why? The other game modes aren't symmetrical to each other. Rewards are designed for each context.

Feels like I asked this already and haven't seen a convincing answer.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Anasate.5408]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

But why? The other game modes aren't symmetrical to each other. Rewards are designed for each context.

But is it a good design?

[Chaba.5410]

Just now, Anasate.5408 said:

But is it a good design?

Still avoiding the question?

[ArchonWing.9480]

12 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

If you insist: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formal_fallacy

Sorry, you only answered half the prompt and arguably the less important half of it.

35/100 is the best score I can give.

[Chaba.5410]

8 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

But is it a good design?

Is what you want good design?  You're asking for the game to throw skirmish tickets at the veteran players even faster than it does now.  Anet already struggles with providing uses for those rewards.  Do you have any idea how many skirmish tickets players have stacked up and nothing to use them on?  How many Badges of Honor?   Other currency?  There's players well beyond 10k WXP rank and no masteries to spend them on.  That's good design to you?

Have you finished purchasing all the HoT, PoF, and EoD skins?  Nothing to spend your useless currency on?

Edited December 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Anasate.5408]

5 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Still avoiding the question?

If you had bothered to read and assimilate my previous posts, you wouldn't be asking that question because you would've already had the answer. In the interest of fairness.

I am however asking you a question which you are avoiding - is it a good design?

[Chaba.5410]

4 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

If you had bothered to read and assimilate my previous posts, you wouldn't be asking that question because you would've already had the answer. In the interest of fairness.

I am however asking you a question which you are avoiding - is it a good design?

Oh, you thought appealing to some vague notion of fairness was a convincing answer?  My bad.

Your answer still contains the assumption that the game modes are somehow equal between each other.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Anasate.5408]

2 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Anet already struggles with providing uses for those rewards.  Do you have any idea how many skirmish tickets players have stacked up and nothing to use them on?  How many Badges of Honor?   Other currency?  There's players well beyond 10k WXP rank and no masteries to spend them on.  That's good design to you?

Well, no. It seems we're in agreement. But yes, I would like good design, which requires players to stand together and demand it from those who can provide it.

[Anasate.5408]

2 minutes ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Your answer still contains the assumption that the game modes are somehow equal between each other.

The rewards are analogous, which begs comparison of the acquisition systems. I never said the game modes are equal.

[Anasate.5408]

12 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Sorry, you only answered half the prompt and arguably the less important half of it.

35/100 is the best score I can give.

As if you're entitled to an answer when you're not even on topic.

[Chaba.5410]

2 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

The rewards are analogous, which begs comparison of the acquisition systems. I never said the game modes are equal.

If you want an analogous system to compare WvW Skirmish Tickets to, look into PvP League Tickets.  Both systems were released originally around the same time.

[Chaba.5410]

6 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

Well, no. It seems we're in agreement. But yes, I would like good design, which requires players to stand together and demand it from those who can provide it.

We're in agreement then that increasing the rate at which Skirmish tickets are obtainable is bad design?  Thanks!

[Anasate.5408]

Just now, Chaba.5410 said:

If you want an analogous system to compare WvW Skirmish Tickets to, look into PvP League Tickets.

I can't, I don't play sPvP. I'm doing the best I can with the information that's available to me.

1 minute ago, Chaba.5410 said:

Both systems were released originally around the same time.

Doesn't mean they're immutable.

[TheGrimm.5624]

25 minutes ago, Player.2475 said:

Good points are being made, but I'd say sPvP is probably a better introduction to WvW than WvW is to sPvP because you spend a lot more time fighting players in comparatively fair match-ups. You can more effectively learn how to fight players when one side doesn't severely outnumber the other, and you will not be scared to get into fights if you slowly learn how to deal with 1v2, 1v3, 1v4, 1v5 in a sterile environment like sPvP without a 50 man zerg around the corner.

Agree here, sPvP is a good link into WvW. When lkistening to the bit in the video I was already thinking the same. Open world can lead you to sPvP which gets you into WvW.

Was a better one in the past in my opinion when skills weren't split and we had more amulets. Allowed you to get close to the same build which allowed you to practice more fights in a shorter order and less run back. Some could make the case that dueling works for that and I could see that point. But it doesn't help to get you in those spots where you need to practice against more than one. If anything large scale WvW will give you more breaks and allow you more mistakes as the group size goes up and more boons come into play but knowing your build will help in both large scale, small scale and in roaming.

[Anasate.5408]

1 minute ago, Chaba.5410 said:

We're in agreement then that increasing the rate at which Skirmish tickets are obtainable is bad design?  Thanks!

No, you're shifting the context. If you don't want to contribute it's fine, but take your agenda elsewhere. I'm here to discuss a properly defined paradigm, not play volleyball with baseless assertions.

[XenesisII.1540]

13 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

The fact that some players already acquired the reward doesn't mean the acquisition method can't or shouldn't be changed. I got a Heart of the Khan-Ur years ago when it was worth 20k gold. Then the drop rate was increased. If I had kept it, I would've lost roughly 18k worth of value on it because of inflation, but I wouldn't have been entitled to cry about it.
A flawed system should be changed, and if Anet wants to be fair about it, they can reimburse the claim ticket difference to players who already got the ring.

Already accounted for dailies in my OP. I did not account for OSR because it's very difficult to quantify, as it is highly situational. If you can come up with a sensible statistical analysis which can account for the large total play time requirement discrepancy between the WvW ring acquisition method and the Raiding ring acquisition method, I would gladly revise the comparison. If you can't, the point is moot. As Kant puts it in his "Critique of Pure Reason" - "For if no intuition could be given corresponding to the concept, the concept would still be a thought, so far as its form is concerned, but would be without any object, and no knowledge of anything would be possible by means of it. So far as I could know, there would be nothing, and could be nothing, to which my thought could be applied."

If it's optional then it is an option, and the option should be on par with other existing counterparts for it to be a fair option.

That's why we should make no assumption about prior experience or achievements of a player within the compared game modes.

That is a very good point. However, how do you rationalize this? Can you use effort as a coefficient for decreasing the required time, something like effective_time=base_time*(1/game_mode_effort_constant)? Also, and this is tangential to the subject but it's an interesting thought - if you start doing that, wouldn't you lose justification for capping currencies? 
None of that matters anyway because it's not Anet's philosophy to compute reward acquisition time as a function of effort. If it was, its effects would've be present within the reward acquisition systems. In WvW you'd have substantial claim ticket OSR rewards and smaller rewards for the AFK track (to preserve the expected weekly income), and in raiding LI rewards would scale with the encounter difficulty.

Not necessarily. WvW has merit, so it should have its own exclusive shiny reward for people who manage to excel at it, but the acquisition method should be symmetrical with the acquisition method of other game modes' exclusive shinies.

It's the same 3-4 people over and over again. A vocal group to be sure, but hardly a majority. 

Do you have an argument in there somewhere or are you just typing words in an order that seems right to you? Yes, 6 hours for FC is a very sensible number which I got from my experience as a not terribly experienced raider. As Cyninja.2954 kindly pointed out, this is what my weekly clears look like. And yes, after doing the achievements you can just do the easy bosses. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to reiterate the fact that raid rewards are linear, which means the total hour investment doesn't go up no matter how many weekly resets it takes you. Even assuming you don't have guilds that can do full clears in that time, the difficulty among encounters is not homogenous, so if you only do the easy encounters, the total hour investment actually goes down, as opposed to WvW where taking the easy route makes the total hour investment go up. I didn't make this argument in my OP because it's very difficult to quantify, but since some people insist on bringing occult optimizations to the discussion table, there you go.

Heart is a droppable item with a monetary value, a value assigned by the player according to supply, you can acquire it with no time or effort put into it, just swipe your creditcard and you're good to go.

Legendary rings are account bound and it's value comes from it's minimal time and effort that everyone needs to put in, you can buy parts of it, but you still need to put in the time for the tickets. There is no assigned value, no ratio of what needs to be more time or more effort, most of gw2 stuff comes down to whether you want to spend time farming for the materials, or farm gold in whatever way and buy it off the trading post instead. For stuff that have no monetary value they usually assign a grind of time and effort for it.

Now if you want the time to acquire to be the same, and lower the requirement in wvw, then increasing tickets per week isn't the only thing that would change, but also increasing effort to be comparable. To be fair they would have to ask you to do something like raid in a minimal 10 man squad and capture like 20 T3 keeps. Because running solo to cap a camp every 10 mins sure as kitten isn't the same as running a 10 man squad in a raid.

Bottom line though...

Why should you, a newbie who doesn't even want to play the game mode, be able to acquire the item faster than me who spends 99% of my gw2 time in the game mode?

[Chaba.5410]

5 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

No, you're shifting the context. If you don't want to contribute it's fine, but take your agenda elsewhere. I'm here to discuss a properly defined paradigm, not play volleyball with baseless assertions.

No, you didn't answer my question and only responded nonsensically to a supporting example.

Here's the question again without the supporting example:
"Is what you want good design?  You're asking for the game to throw skirmish tickets at the veteran players even faster than it does now."

 

If you want to discuss, don't go off on tangents.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[Chaba.5410]

10 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

I can't, I don't play sPvP. I'm doing the best I can with the information that's available to me.

The information is available to you.  It's on the wiki.

[Anasate.5408]

1 minute ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

There is no assigned value, no ratio of what needs to be more time or more effort

I beg to differ and I've proven a numerical comparison can be performed. If you want to make an objection to the methodology, be my guest, otherwise don't deny what has been shown without any proof.

3 minutes ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Now if you want the time to acquire to be the same, and lower the requirement in wvw, then increasing tickets per week isn't the only thing that would change, but also increasing effort to be comparable

Yep, I can accept that as a solution.

I can also accept as a solution raising the bar for raid legendary ring. If Anet implements a weekly LI bonus for full raid clears that brings it on par with the WvW curve, that would also make the systems mutually fair.

[Anasate.5408]

1 minute ago, Chaba.5410 said:

The information is available to you.  It's on the wiki.

Then you do it, make sure to include all systems that have symmetrical rewards. Oh wait, sPvP has no ring.

[Chaba.5410]

2 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

Then you do it, make sure to include all systems that have symmetrical rewards. Oh wait, sPvP has no ring.

sPvP has an amulet.  You don't need to do sPvP to get it anymore though because Anet added one to open world.  Maybe they'll add another ring to PvE too so we don't get the repeated posts like yours anymore.

And no, I'm not doing your research for you.  You're the one wanting to compare analogous reward systems.

Edited December 13, 2023 by Chaba.5410

[TheGrimm.5624]

6 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

I'm here to discuss a properly defined paradigm

Two things, we didn't have an option for a Leggo ring for a long time and feedback was, as was for WvW to get the armor,  it was fine if it took longer if it gave us options to acquire it at all versus just amassing gear and accessories which quite often meant spending even more time out of WvW to make if you wanted to change up a build. Thereby it was huge time savings for WvW and meant more time in the game mode versus out of it.

Second, I think you are using the wrong view of ring to ring, compare the time of WvW ring to Leggo Amulet and use that as a basis. Again a single player can get both and the time to do so were more in line. Not saying that is the logic Anet used but I also couldn't say I don't see them having used that metric to compare to what would be required to get it since it is after all the last rings and amulets you will ever need. 

[XenesisII.1540]

2 minutes ago, Anasate.5408 said:

Yep, I can accept that as a solution.

Great, so go ahead and create and command an open squad of 10, that will get you extra 3 pips easily, then capture as much keeps as possible, that'll get you some good wxp for more ranks for more pips to go through the skirmish track faster every week.

Problem solved, lets go get a beer everyone.  🍻

[MercurialKuroSludge.8974]

Imo the current Conflux is fine, 1850 tickets isnt too bad, its 4 weeks if u tryhard in WvW, not too far off for a Leggy.
The GoBs have severely deflated in price, so buying 7 stacks is now almost the same raw gold cost as 3 stacks before the price drop.
The sPvP thing can also still be bought, only need 1 stack.
Everything else is PvE possible.
In fact, flabby wallet peeps like me spend more time grinding gold in PvE than it takes to manually farm 7 stacks of GoB and 1850 tickets.

Coal on the other hand, takes a minimum of 5 weeks with full tryhard all Strike CM/Raids, not to mention somebody probably has to freshly learn all 7 raid wings and all the Strike CMs.
Additionally, it requires Map Completion of 4 PoF maps, hunting Leggy bounties for Elegies (or lord forbid u do Hearts manually in Vabbi), as well as the tike taken to finish the collection achievements.
Coal can easily take far longer than 15 hours per week, people just don't typically see it all add up.

Conflux is just chilling for 4 weeks and then u never have to deal with WvW again, even if your are somewhat new to WvW, play a second game, watch a youtube, take a camp and then WP back to spawn and afk again.