The balance is...

[Kuma.1503]

Im okay with Rene dealing high damage. Its very easy to blow them up if they misstep. Maybe ease back on the nerf to Vindication?

2 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

 

Well you kind of contradict yourself with point 1 and point 2, which is it? Furthermore, despite power cata being meta for god knows how long? there were NOWHERE NEAR as many power catas as say, necros. Never. But look at SB now, very strong, not that difficult to pick up, SB's EVERYWHERE. Cmon man, see it for what it really is.. exact same thing when condi cata hit, condi catas everywhere. Power cata? not at all.

I ran into a few power catas yesterday. Last game I played had 3 (including me). 

No my statements do not contradict. You can reward complexity without making easier classes unplayable. 

One does not require the other. 

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Kuma.1503
Cut down for brevity.

[Flowki.7194]

50 minutes ago, Kuma.1503 said:

I ran into a few power catas yesterday. Last game I played had 3 (including me). 

No my statements do not contradict. You can reward complexity without making easier classes unplayable. 

One does not require the other. 

 

 

Seing a few catas means what? count the catas vs tempests over your next 50 games, also count the amount of garudians and necros. I seen a weaver today, weavers are all over the place 😜

 

You can't have both, if you are to reward complexity, then complex specs will dominate, which they don't in Gw2. Again, count the amount of catas you see vs the amount of condi zerkers, or scourge, or blood, or willbender. Nobody cares that the top 5% of this playerbase can "dominate" on something like cata or hollow, with the high floors and ceilings. In 95% of the playerbase, low effort specs are dominating, absolutely.. becuase most of us don't reach the ceiling to dominate on a complex spec, and all behold, all of the complex specs are extremely under represented. They take way too much effort for lower reward than playing a simple spec, for the same skill input at those below elite levels.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Quote

You can reward complexity without making easier classes unplayable. 

3 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

You can't have both

I don't see why these would be mutually exclusive. This is like saying that you can't reward your children for good behavior, without killing some of your children. You don't need to do that unless this is Game of Thrones or something lol.

But seriously, i think your too much in your feelings here about this. Try to see a bigger picture and remove yourself from bias. Complexity is relative in that, difficulty for one, might be simple for another...and measuring complexity is not a thing you can do in a straight forward way.

I will say this : Not everyone likes playing the piano class, nor wants be forced to play piano class. It's much more...logical...to reward those that can, than to destroy those who can not.

 

[Sahne.6950]

21 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

Yes ok, now compare the complexity of tempest/rev support to the complexity of gaurdian.

The thing is..... the most effective way that you used to play d/f Support tempest when it was meta.....    WAS WITH A FIXED ROTATION, Overloading everything but water.

You would just rotate   water -> fire -> water -> air -> water -> earth -> water.....  rinse and repeat.  

 

You need to understand this very simple but crucial detail about gw2..        ->COMPLEXITY MEANS NOTHING.<-

Just because your build is harder to play, doesnt mean you will or even should get better results.     

Guildwars philosophy is:    Being easily accessible for almost everyone. 

You need to understand this.     it took me quite some time to realize that.....   but thats just the philosophy behind gw2.

The only reason to go the extra mile, is because you enjoy doing it.          

Alot of people, me included, fall asleep when playing some facetank snoozefest.

 

You have high complexity specs for people that want to refine their skills..... and then you have Bladesworn.... facetanking whole burst.... simply mashing shouts off cd.....  and getting away with it.

You need to learn to enjoy going the extra mile. That feeling of accomplishment when you are able to reel in some kills against people on metabuilds.    Dont be sad if you lost. Affterall.. you are fighting a uphill battle. You could also go on a spec like that any time.   But you are diffrent.    You have to learn to appreciate that.   

Nothing more fun to blow up a CZerker as Core!  You can be kitten sure that the second they touch the ground... their brain goes:  " well.... not even a metaspec can carry me against this dude"

 

Afterall... do you play this game for fun?  -> then play what you enjoy.         Or do you play this game to win? -> pick a ez mode spec and feel like a good player.

But dont be mad at people for picking the ez route.  Not everyone wants to dump in endless hours into pvp.   Some just want to hop on and have some fun with their buddys without having to play piano.   No shame in that.  

Edited December 18, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Shagie.7612]

11 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Im okay with Rene dealing high damage. Its very easy to blow them up if they misstep. Maybe ease back on the nerf to Vindication?

I don't think unnerfing Vindication would add as much damage as it sounds like. With a full 25 might stack, Sevenshot hits for 850 per arrow, Bloodbane for 1457. That's 10k damage for the whole burst. Chrono in the same situation would do like double that.

If you eat a full Chrono burst, or don't stop a Deadeye, or let a Scrapper nade kite you (something they can do similarly to shortbow, arguably better with superspeed, even), or whatever else, you're gonna die very quickly, and all of those have considerably better survivability, whether that be by something like Impact Savant, Superspeed, Stealth, Invulns, or whatever.

They'd straight up have to buff Renegade by like, 30% or something absurd to match them.
If you ate Sevenshot+Bloodbane Path, you'd be dead, if Renegade's damage were to be relative to how easy it is to kill.

That's absolutely never happening nor would it be a good idea.

The other half of the trait is borderline wasted too, considering Citadel Bombardment sucks at hitting people. Plant it dead center on a downed body and out of 10 bombs you hit 5 if you're lucky. The underwater version sends em directly at the target, make it work like that thanks.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Shagie.7612

[Sahne.6950]

1 hour ago, Shagie.7612 said:

They'd straight up have to buff Renegade by like, 30% or something absurd to match them.
If you ate Sevenshot+Bloodbane Path, you'd be dead, if Renegade's damage were to be relative to how easy it is to kill.

That's absolutely never happening nor would it be a good idea.

Thats why adding survivability to Renegade is prolly the better way.   

A cleanse here.... some prot there.... and you could maybe make it work somehow.

 

Or.... hear me out....  

reworked heroic Command:   -> This skill now grants the user 0,5 seconds of superspeed per Kallas Favor, consuming all Kallas Favor currently on the user.

At max stacks that would be 2,5 seconds Superspeed.       At a max, this translates to 25% superspeed uptime when spamming it under perfect conditions... so its hardly op...   

But it gives Rene a much needed speedboost, when the burst failed and they need to GTFO.  After the burst, you will likely have a few stacks, and can then burn these stacks to GTFO and reposition.   Would make perfect sense from a design standpoint.

 

 

The trait "lasting legacy" would then also needed to be reworked. 

When equipping this Trait, heroic Command no longer removes Kallas favor and you gain 1 might per stack of Kallas favor, ontop of the superspeed.

thoughts?

Edited December 18, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Vinny.7260]

3 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Thats why adding survivability to Renegade is prolly the better way.   

A cleanse here.... some prot there.... and you could maybe make it work somehow.

 

Or.... hear me out....  

reworked heroic Command:   -> This skill now grants the user 0,5 seconds of superspeed per Kallas Favor, consuming all Kallas Favor currently on the user.

At max stacks that would be 2,5 seconds Superspeed.       At a max, this translates to 25% superspeed uptime when spamming it under perfect conditions... so its hardly op...   

But it gives Rene a much needed speedboost, when the burst failed and they need to GTFO.  After the burst, you will likely have a few stacks, and can then burn these stacks to GTFO and reposition.   Would make perfect sense from a design standpoint.

 

 

The trait "lasting legacy" would then also needed to be reworked. 

When equipping this Trait, heroic Command no longer removes Kallas favor and you gain 1 might per stack of Kallas favor, ontop of the superspeed.

thoughts?

I'd personally go the approach of targeting traits and reducing costs on the Citadel Orders. (10/15/15)

 

 

And then touch some of the traits like Bold Reversal granting Superspeed on stun break. (3s)

Change Righteous Rebel to pulse healing in addition to Alacrity. Nothing exceptionally high in number. Maybe something like 200(0.1) per pulse. Meaning a passive heal on a 16s CD (assuming Alacrity lasted the full duration), 1.2k healing wouldn't be game breaking, but on top of the fact it grants increased alacrity duration, reduces incoming condition damage, and heals. That'd give a massive boost.

Increase Lasting Legacy's Might increase from 1 stack bonus to 2 stacks, meaning they get 15 might stacks on 10s CD. Also reduces the cost of Heroic Command from 10 to 0.

As for Vindication, I guess just double the missiles granted. 20 missiles would be hilarious to see sent out, especially if you use a spot where AoEs bug out and send projectiles all into a single spot.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

10 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Just because your build is harder to play, doesnt mean you will or even should get better results.     

There is also complexity in simplicity. Not having an answer to certain skills or playstyles baked in to your kit (as long as not having this answer doesn't instantly kill you) can lead to all sorts of creative solutions for fighting bad matchups, and those scenarios are important for the game too.

There's a reason people have limited reaction to people picking Jin in Tekken, but double take if someone picks Panda. There's a reason people don't talk about the several hundred fox dittos that ran through the smash scene, but have notes about isabelle/yoshi/jigglypuff. 

more button indeed does not mean you should win more.

Edited December 18, 2023 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[arazoth.7290]

1 hour ago, Vinny.7260 said:

I'd personally go the approach of targeting traits and reducing costs on the Citadel Orders. (10/15/15)

•0/10/10

•Make Citadel Bombardment 75-100% faster travel speed.

•Citadel Bombardment 30% damage reduction => Because it's faster, hits more often and low energy useable a lot but on high cd still (for rev)

[Burnfall.9573]

What specs do you feel like are too good? I would like to add one to the list

removed, mistake. 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Burnfall.9573

[Vinny.7260]

1 hour ago, Burnfall.9573 said:

What specs do you feel like are too good? I would like to add one to the list

 

 

 

As hilariously painful this is to watch, unfortunately this isn't the right section to post WvW.

 

WvW and PvP are separate categories.

 

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/forum/23-world-vs-world/

 

[Shagie.7612]

12 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

reworked heroic Command:   -> This skill now grants the user 0,5 seconds of superspeed per Kallas Favor, consuming all Kallas Favor currently on the user.

 

The stacking mechanic is basically meaningless, consuming them wouldn't matter honestly. Like, you'd have it back instantly in disengage situations from residual damage or kiting with shortbow. Not really any need to consume the stack.

8 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

I'd personally go the approach of targeting traits and reducing costs on the Citadel Orders. (10/15/15)

Okay, but the whole point is to net buff the spec, not make it trade significant amounts of damage via Vindication/Lasting Legacy for survivability in Righteous Rebel. You already give up a ton of damage just to live on it, and it still has some of the worst survivability in the entire game. Now more?

[Burnfall.9573]

4 hours ago, Vinny.7260 said:

As hilariously painful this is to watch, unfortunately this isn't the right section to post WvW.

 

WvW and PvP are separate categories.

 

> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/forum/23-world-vs-world/

 

 

You are correct. I just noticed my mistake

[Flowki.7194]

On 12/18/2023 at 5:07 AM, JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

I don't see why these would be mutually exclusive. This is like saying that you can't reward your children for good behavior, without killing some of your children. You don't need to do that unless this is Game of Thrones or something lol.

But seriously, i think your too much in your feelings here about this. Try to see a bigger picture and remove yourself from bias. Complexity is relative in that, difficulty for one, might be simple for another...and measuring complexity is not a thing you can do in a straight forward way.

I will say this : Not everyone likes playing the piano class, nor wants be forced to play piano class. It's much more...logical...to reward those that can, than to destroy those who can not.

 

That is a rediculous comparison. A more fitting comparison would be this; Child A wins the race and gets a gold medal, Child B comes last, but becuase child B did not train as much, child B also gets a gold medal, because we can't have child B getting too upset. There may be valid reasons while child B (a casual player) does not play the game as much, I get it, but thats life.. skill level at anything is relative to how much time you practice, if you can't practice for valid reasons, that a shame.. but don't expect top results, face reality. The reward for playing a complex class is simple; increased effectiveness the better you get. That is the very motivation to even bother with it.. find a complex spec you like + knowing the better you get, the more your reward. It is a fundemental human aspect of intrinsic motivation.

 

If a person has played this game longer than me, and is on a comlex class, I do not, under any circumstance, expect to have a fighting chance of winning that person on a lower complex class, while I am also of lower skill (within reason). That comparison then actually gets worse, when you put a high skilled player on an effective low effort spec (like condi zerker). 

 

This argument could not be further away from "feelings", its a matter of princible and logic. The game stinks of modern pandering to a lazy generation that want all the rewards with none of the effort or dedication. Play with me in-game anytime, youre all welcome to add me, you'll not see me complaining when dying to things like hollow, vindi etc. You will see me raging at selfish pricks for not attempting to pick up downed team mates, and thanking team mates who do. This is old school gaming mentality, which is lost on the modern generations, who all think they are the main charictor "I have to carry"  "I". 

 

If people don't want to play complex specs I completely get it. I was talking to a guy a while back who played condi mech becuase he had a genuine disability, and couldn't use his left hand very well. Lets take that example, should we buff condi mech to be as effective as a complex class for that person? I'd be ok with that.. but the issue then, is that a person who does not have a disability can then jump on the same spec and be EVEN MORE effective. If a player has no disability, and wants to play an easier spec as its more relaxing (been there) then sure.. but the downside of that is you should not be as effectice. More effort should always = more reward, you kitten with systems I can't even be bothered to get into by destroying that balance. I will say, messing with that balance has 1 result; completely lowers class diversity, as complex specs are no longer worth the effort. Complexity is the driver of diversity, its that simple.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Flowki.7194]

On 12/18/2023 at 7:32 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

The thing is..... the most effective way that you used to play d/f Support tempest when it was meta.....    WAS WITH A FIXED ROTATION, Overloading everything but water.

You would just rotate   water -> fire -> water -> air -> water -> earth -> water.....  rinse and repeat.  

 

You need to understand this very simple but crucial detail about gw2..        ->COMPLEXITY MEANS NOTHING.<-

Just because your build is harder to play, doesnt mean you will or even should get better results.     

Guildwars philosophy is:    Being easily accessible for almost everyone. 

You need to understand this.     it took me quite some time to realize that.....   but thats just the philosophy behind gw2.

The only reason to go the extra mile, is because you enjoy doing it.          

Alot of people, me included, fall asleep when playing some facetank snoozefest.

 

You have high complexity specs for people that want to refine their skills..... and then you have Bladesworn.... facetanking whole burst.... simply mashing shouts off cd.....  and getting away with it.

You need to learn to enjoy going the extra mile. That feeling of accomplishment when you are able to reel in some kills against people on metabuilds.    Dont be sad if you lost. Affterall.. you are fighting a uphill battle. You could also go on a spec like that any time.   But you are diffrent.    You have to learn to appreciate that.   

Nothing more fun to blow up a CZerker as Core!  You can be kitten sure that the second they touch the ground... their brain goes:  " well.... not even a metaspec can carry me against this dude"

 

Afterall... do you play this game for fun?  -> then play what you enjoy.         Or do you play this game to win? -> pick a ez mode spec and feel like a good player.

But dont be mad at people for picking the ez route.  Not everyone wants to dump in endless hours into pvp.   Some just want to hop on and have some fun with their buddys without having to play piano.   No shame in that.  

I pretty much covered this in the post above. I like your posts, although I disagree with your stance. The ethos of anything can change, this game is a human construct, its not fixed. Look at the sPVP playerbase, it gets smaller every month, wait times are getting longer OR MMR is getting wider. Why?

 

Stale pvp modes

Lack of new maps

Lack of reward for teamwork (see solo que support rants)

Lack of reward for playing complex specs (see representation of low efforr specs)

 

I agree with what you have said, that is what the game is.. but it sure as kitten aint working. I will never, ever side with the ethos that low effort and high effort should be rewarded similarly. It is the killer of all meaningful compitition, and sPVP is a compitition.. is it currently meaningfull?

 

1 last thing. If a person is just playing for fun and wants a nice easy spec, then by nature (in a well balanced game with decent MMR) they will end up in low silver or bronze, but why do they care? they are playing for the pure fun of it, with no regerad to rank. In such a system, those who want complex gameplay, and team focused matches, rise to there current skill leveles, where effort/skill feel rewarded relative to a meaningful rank. For me its not about rank per say, I simply want to get to a rank where team play is evident, thats where my fun is, win or loss.. skilled games with both teams working together for their win. That is not possible in Gw2, no matter your rank. Cheap specs, wide MMR ranges, and an overall balance/selfish population that often punishes any effort to team play.

Edited December 19, 2023 by Flowki.7194

[Kuma.1503]

7 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

I pretty much covered this in the post above. I like your posts, although I disagree with your stance. The ethos of anything can change, this game is a human construct, its not fixed. Look at the sPVP playerbase, it gets smaller every month, wait times are getting longer OR MMR is getting wider. Why?

 

Stale pvp modes

Lack of new maps

Lack of reward for teamwork (see solo que support rants)

Lack of reward for playing complex specs (see representation of low efforr specs)

 

I agree with what you have said, that is what the game is.. but it sure as kitten aint working. I will never, ever side with the ethos that low effort and high effort should be rewarded similarly. It is the killer of all meaningful compitition, and sPVP is a compitition.. is it currently meaningfull?

 

1 last thing. If a person is just playing for fun and wants a nice easy spec, then by nature (in a well balanced game with decent MMR) they will end up in low silver or bronze, but why do they care? they are playing for the pure fun of it, with no regerad to rank. In such a system, those who want complex gameplay, and team focused matches, rise to there current skill leveles, where effort/skill feel rewarded relative to a meaningful rank. For me its not about rank per say, I simply want to get to a rank where team play is evident, thats where my fun is, win or loss.. skilled games with both teams working together for their win. That is not possible in Gw2, no matter your rank. Cheap specs, wide MMR ranges, and an overall balance/selfish population that often punishes any effort to team play.

The problem with this philosophy is that it takes focus away from the player and puts it on the class. What you're suggesting is that the better player should make it into high ranks because of the class they picked, not based on how well they play. 

In healthy games, there are very often characters/classes that are easy to pick up, but reward solid fundamentals over complexity. This allows players to express their skill via different means. 

I play a lot of Smash, Ultimate is considered by most to be the most balanced title to date in spite of its massive roster. And while there are difficult top tiers in that game like Joker, Pikachu, Sora, and Shulk. There are also more straight forward top tiers like Wolf and Palutena who have low bars to entry, but greatly reward players with good fundamentals. Most players in this game will agree that, in a battle between good characters, it's the better player who tends to win. 

Gw2 has countless problems that hider it as a competitive title (the biggest being it wasn't designed from the ground up as a PvP game). The existance of "easy" classes in high level matches is not one of those problems.  

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by Kuma.1503

[Sahne.6950]

19 hours ago, Flowki.7194 said:

. I will never, ever side with the ethos that low effort and high effort should be rewarded similarly.

From a logical standpoint... i get what you are saying.... i really do.

BUT... if we would just blindly follow your train of thoughts here.....  we steer in to a big problem...   Please try and really understand and think about what i am saying here.

 

Certain specs are just alot simpler than others... by design..   If they would put you in charge right now.. and you implement your  "effort -> reward philosophy"...

Then Necrowould be super bad... regardless of how good you play it.. simply because its not as mechanically challenging, than for example Holo or Ele.

 

Answer the following thing

-> Do you want the "ez-specs" to be straight up bad, just because they are easy? <-     

-> Do you want Ele/Holo and Herald to dominate high elo, just because they are hard to play? <-

Because that is what would be the next logical step when following your logic.        

The answer here has to be NO.    

There is builds and specs that are easier to play...   Thats just how it is right now. And Anet cant and wont change that at this point of the game.

 

so the only thing they can do, is:    make all the specs, regardless of complexity, when played perfectly, perform roughly on the same level.    <-  THAT is their current philosophy.   

And is that soo bad?   

You simply have to accep that certain things are easier... and others are more challenging.     

Pick what works for you... but dont be mad at people for picking the other thing. 

Spoiler

you also need to understand that the Vindicator you are playing falls in the "ez" category.  

Following your logic, would mean nerfs to it, as the "effort<->reward" is simply out of whack.

It can get away with alot of things simply because you can mindlessly spam evade and blockframes. But still is able to burst people down in mere seconds, inbetween those windows.

I personally think its easier to play than Reaper, atleast inside of Conquest. A Reaper has to be positioned right all the time to never get focused by the team, as they have no "full mitigate" outside of their 2 dodges.   Reapershroud wont protect you when there is 3 people wanting you dead.

A vindi.....  not so much.  You have ALOT of Evade and blockframes to completly negate incoming Damage, which lets you get away with bad positioning alot more and take alot more "heat" compared to necros.

Just my 2cts tho.    mileage may vary... but i feel like Vindi is in the top 5 easiest specs. 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Shagie.7612]

when everyone else saw the 10 ele tournament match they went "wow this is stupid lol"
when ele players saw it, their only thought was that's how it should be

specs without a ton of short CD buttons and answers for literally every situation are harder anyways
 

[Sahne.6950]

8 minutes ago, Shagie.7612 said:

specs without a ton of short CD buttons and answers for literally every situation are harder anyways

Thats a valid and very underrated point!

Whenever i play necro, and i get bursted... i am just like... okey... i dodged twice.... WHAT NOW!?   REEEE..... wurm?   oh yeah! i use that for mobility!     then i eat a stun and die.....

on ele i would swap air ->2+3 for blind to avoid the big hitter -> Gale to get him off me -> superspeed away -> throw arcane blast in earth behind, to root -> ZOOM ->  i am 1200 units away. 

 

NOT having that much buttons is a level of complexity in itself.    You need to compensate the "lack of buttons" with smart positioning and useage of LoS.

But that is something that not many people can or even want to realize.   

more buttons = harder gameplay.   <-  thats where the thinking stops for most people.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Spellhunter.9675]

25 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

NOT having that much buttons is a level of complexity in itself.    You need to compensate the "lack of buttons" with smart positioning and useage of LoS.

But that is something that not many people can or even want to realize.   

more buttons = harder gameplay.   <-  thats where the thinking stops for most people.

Necro is the hardest class to play. Confirmed.

[Sahne.6950]

  We finally found it!    THE BIG FUNNY!

  You sir, just won the internet. 🏆 🎉

 

Spoiler

I just love how you completly ignore how i was rambling about the fact that Necro is mechanically ez to play,

but it would be unfair to just balance it to be bad, just because its ez.

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[Spellhunter.9675]

6 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

    You just won the internet. 🏆 🎉

 

  Hide contents

I just love how you completly ignore my 600 word essay on the fact that Necro is mechanically ez to play, but it would be unfair to just balance it to be bad, just because its ez.

 

If I see a forum post with more than 30 words I just consider it to be Trevor-Boyer's-level of shitpost. So I'll just read last couple of sentences.
Nothing personal.

[Sahne.6950]

understandable.  have a great day.

[Sahne.6950]

I know i am derailing it... but SSBU is life! 😄

18 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

And while there are difficult top tiers in that game like....Pikachu....

Pikachu isnt toptier xD    Dont let ESAM fool you!

Spoiler

Data suggests hes lower high tier at best.     

ESAM, being the supposedly "best pickachu player" has managed to secure a wh00ping ONE SINGLE WIN in a tournament since 2019.   He won Glitch in 2021... but only cuz MKLEO dropped the ball big time and played byleth+ Corrin.  

Pikachu has crazy high pickrates, because people somehow think hes contender for #1 charackter... yet pika has close to no results to show.   Megaman has won more majors than pikachu.... let that sink in. 😄

Koreans call it the "ESAM syndrome".   That guy was hyping up the charackter so much, until everyone believed him XD   In "non NA" tierlists, you wont find pikachu any higher than A- tier.

The Charackter is crazy good on paper... BUT, his comboloops are sooo incredibly tight.... most of them require you to react to DI absolutely frameperfect. Because of this its so easy to drop the ball.   Someone fakes a DI out, you think you can land the Downthrow -> down B combo ... but last second he flicks to the right... DI´s in...  you use Down 'B, but it doesnt connect... now you have endless endlag and you eat a 30 Damage combo as a punishment.   Not even best pikachuplayer in the world, being ESAM, has enough consistency to pull it off against good players that simply fake DI. 

If even the best player cant pull it off... is it then justified to call him top tier, simply because he COULD be good, If you played him without doing mistakes.. which noone seems to be able to do.

Its so easy to drop the ball that most of the time, worlds best pikachu player wont reach top 30 in tourneys. 

How good can a charackter truely be, when even worlds best player cant seem to score good results with that charackter?

(yes i dumped prolly 500 hours into that rat. yes i still cant pull off Nair loops consistently in online play, because its a frameperfect loop that you are trying to do, while having 3 frames online delay, so you have to go by muscle memory and not what you see.... and YES that makes me mad.)

Edited December 20, 2023 by Sahne.6950

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:46 AM, Flowki.7194 said:

That is a rediculous comparison. A more fitting comparison would be this; Child A wins the race and gets a gold medal, Child B comes last, but becuase child B did not train as much, child B also gets a gold medal, because we can't have child B getting too upset. There may be valid reasons while child B (a casual player) does not play the game as much, I get it, but thats life.. skill level at anything is relative to how much time you practice, if you can't practice for valid reasons, that a shame.. but don't expect top results, face reality. The reward for playing a complex class is simple; increased effectiveness the better you get. That is the very motivation to even bother with it.. find a complex spec you like + knowing the better you get, the more your reward. It is a fundemental human aspect of intrinsic motivation.

Unless you've changed your position, i'm pretty sure this example reflects why the two properties are not mutually exclusive.

We are choosing to not reward Child B for winning the race, rather than chopping off it's legs so that it can never race again. There is a very clear difference between those two operations. 

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If a person has played this game longer than me, and is on a comlex class, I do not, under any circumstance, expect to have a fighting chance of winning that person on a lower complex class, while I am also of lower skill (within reason). That comparison then actually gets worse, when you put a high skilled player on an effective low effort spec (like condi zerker). 

 

This argument could not be further away from "feelings", its a matter of princible and logic. The game stinks of modern pandering to a lazy generation that want all the rewards with none of the effort or dedication. Play with me in-game anytime, youre all welcome to add me, you'll not see me complaining when dying to things like hollow, vindi etc. You will see me raging at selfish pricks for not attempting to pick up downed team mates, and thanking team mates who do. This is old school gaming mentality, which is lost on the modern generations, who all think they are the main charictor "I have to carry"  "I". 

 

If people don't want to play complex specs I completely get it. I was talking to a guy a while back who played condi mech becuase he had a genuine disability, and couldn't use his left hand very well. Lets take that example, should we buff condi mech to be as effective as a complex class for that person? I'd be ok with that.. but the issue then, is that a person who does not have a disability can then jump on the same spec and be EVEN MORE effective. If a player has no disability, and wants to play an easier spec as its more relaxing (been there) then sure.. but the downside of that is you should not be as effectice. More effort should always = more reward, you kitten with systems I can't even be bothered to get into by destroying that balance. I will say, messing with that balance has 1 result; completely lowers class diversity, as complex specs are no longer worth the effort. Complexity is the driver of diversity, its that simple.

 

I think for the most part we don't even seem to disagree all that much. But these are indeed "feelings" not principles and logic. I do understand what you are trying to say, but you aren't defining what it means for one thing to be simple, or something to be complex, not defining what a reward is, and what a reward is not. how does one even quantify effort? We have established that measuring these things, are not even straight forward to begin with, since these concepts are relative and will vary from player to player, from situation to situation, from build to build. There's bodies of science dedicated to the concept that Simplicity and Complexity are the same thing, even...i won't even try to talk about that, but you should know that, that is a thing and it only further drives a wedge in these sorts of philosophies.

So what you are trying to compose here (that simplicity should be punished, complexity rewarded) amounts to a red-herring, and won't lead to anywhere truly meaningful, because of the arbitrariness in trying to standardize notions of effort, notions of reward, notions of simplicity and complexity.

The true core of this is the following : that builds and strategies should exist, and whether other builds and strategies exist that counter them.

Ex: A player chooses a pistol/pistol thief, which operates on the basis of spamming one ability (Unload). Should we choose to make Unload un-usuable by making its only damage skill do no damage? Or should we introduce mechanics like reflection?

EX: A player chooses a condition build, that stacks burning after executing a sequence of skills. Should we choose to make these skills impossible to land and remove it's damage? Or should we introduce builds that can cleanse conditions?

I can keep going with this, but the point is that there are meaningful differences between these two operations, and that, the existence of builds, is the driver of diversity...and the driver of complexity...more generically "things existing." Removing things from existence (smiters booning), runs counter to these two. Sure, one can make the argument that Build A, drives Build B into extinction, and one can blame complexity/simplicity for that...but maybe Build C is going to drive Build A to extinction and we see a resurgence of Build B...that is why all Builds A, B and C need to exist.

So do you see the point here? In the same token that there is an infinite hierarchy of arbitrary numerical changes, so too are there an infinite hierarchy of arbitrary ways to defining how complex something is. Should Build A that uses 23 skills, be less rewarding than Build B that uses 24 skills? How we do we evaluate that in a quantifiable way when some skills might be easy to use, and others more difficult to land? Where some skills work in specific build configurations, where in others they would not work at all? and so on...

It's worth mentioning that even though i said you were in your feelings, does not mean others are not in their feelings either. I'd say every person here with the exception of Kuma, has looked at these kinds of things completely within their feelings, and those that do engage in that will of course, eventually reap what they sow. Ironically, the last swath of nerfs between Ele and Ranger is just a great example of people reaping what they were sewing...and even more funny (or sad really) is that it has been this exact same situation for 10 years . Build A points finger at Build B, Build B points finger at Build C, and Build C points finger at Build A...and the devs just slowly dismantled their game listening to that shieyte.

Edited December 20, 2023 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684