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Downed Rally Revive Mechanics


XenesisII.1540

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1. There is a one to one ratio limit on how many players can rally up from a death of an enemy.

2. The same concept should apply to Reviving an ally with F, only a limit of one player is permitted to do so, not five players for an instant revive. If they are unwilling to change the amount of players that can revive one(because of pve), then maybe they should slow down the revive amount while in combat in wvw.

3. Instant revive skills should only have one target. Signet of Undeath has 1, Signet of Mercy has 1, Glyph of Renewal has 1, Illusion of Life should only have 1.

4. The utility revive skills should have very long cooldowns, like 240sec or more.

5. The elite revive skills like warrior banner has 5 targets and 120s cooldown.

6. The elites revive skills should keep their 120s cooldown but their targets should also drop to 1 or 3 at most. The lower cooldown than the utilities are their "bonus" for being an elite skill.

Some of you want no downed state, but that ain't happening.

Discuss 🍦

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i think revive by hand having multiple people be able to rez both makes it compete with using the utilities/elites but also can generate an opportunity to burst the group trying to rez, which wont happen if that is out of the option.

alternative suggestion towards the same result: one could make the Downed Penalty stick more and/or have less stacks till death in WvW.  example changes:

  • in WvW one gains 2 stacks per downed
  • stacks are only lost 1 at a time after 30-60s out of combat time, they are not lost during combat.

 

also while not as important: glyph of renewal on earth = 3 target AoE rez which is used when possible and the teleport of air is not needed.

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5 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

1. There is a one to one ratio limit on how many players can rally up from a death of an enemy.

2. The same concept should apply to Reviving an ally with F, only a limit of one player is permitted to do so, not five players for an instant revive. If they are unwilling to change the amount of players that can revive one(because of pve), then maybe they should slow down the revive amount while in combat in wvw.

3. Instant revive skills should only have one target. Signet of Undeath has 1, Signet of Mercy has 1, Glyph of Renewal has 1, Illusion of Life should only have 1.

4. The utility revive skills should have very long cooldowns, like 240sec or more.

5. The elite revive skills like warrior banner has 5 targets and 120s cooldown.

6. The elites revive skills should keep their 120s cooldown but their targets should also drop to 1 or 3 at most. The lower cooldown than the utilities are their "bonus" for being an elite skill.

Some of you want no downed state, but that ain't happening.

Discuss 🍦

A one to one revive mechanic merits a test week in my opinion and how it impacts various group play. Others, its 3 AM, I reserve the right to revisit. 😉 

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2 hours ago, Chrome.9841 said:

They should remove downed state from wvw and make revive skills with high cd but can res dead people.

This is an ongoing one. Maybe we need a poll of leave, adjust and remove to see a better picture of things, and yes I like no downstate weeks personally but no downstate...I think it removes more gameplay and strategy versus adds. So a flat remove will have to go with a no without testing adjustments to the system.

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59 minutes ago, joneirikb.7506 said:

I think it could be interesting to test no hard-rez in combat. So you'll have to win to be able to rez.

But a 1 to 1 for hard rez could also be interesting, would like to see ANet try both.

There already is a no hard rez in combat. There's a soft rez which reduces how fast you can pick up a downed player.

What you more likely want to see but aren't aware of it is reducing the impact of stats and traits. If they changed the speed and efficacy at which a player can be manually picked up to be uniform across all classes regardless of things like healing power/mercy relic/ revive traits then maybe we'd see a slight reduction in power that raw numbers bring to a fight... But you'd more likely just reintroduce old SA revive thief and nobody liked that.

Edited by TexZero.7910
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11 minutes ago, TexZero.7910 said:

If they changed the speed and efficacy at which a player can be manually picked up to be uniform across all classes regardless of things like healing power/mercy relic/ revive traits then maybe we'd see a slight reduction in power that raw numbers bring to a fight...

As those of us willing to compromise/nerf downstate has said many times:

- 1:1 res (only one person can res)
- No rally

Those two changes would significantly reduce the "strength" of downstate in largescale combat (in particular comebacks while ignoring the downed) while keeping it similar in smaller scale where more "tactical" ressing remain important in combat. In addition, I would also add this:

- 3rd times the charm (begin downed state at 66% hp with 33% and dead as the 3 states, currently you first down with 75% and have 4 states)
- Downed state penalty timer doubled
- Reduced heal when ressing

But as we know from previous discussion, any kind of arguments for or against is moot because the other side we are trying to argue with accept absolutely no compromise. They say downstate removed period. That leaves no room for anything. And talking to a brick wall is pretty pointless. So as I said... here we go again. Inc brick walls.

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12 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Discuss 🍦

Problem since day one: PvP can kind of balance 5v5, but WvW needs to balance e.g. 1 vs. 3 and Blob vs. Blob

Any idea to tinker with rezzing should focus on the annoyance that large numbers can pretty much rezz anyone in a short time with minimal consequences for the one rezzing and the one getting rezzed.
I like the idea of limiting the amount of people being able to perform a "normal rezz" to 3 and to stop the downed penalty from recovering while in combat to start with.
Next step for me would be to do what @Dawdler.8521 hast just posted: going from a 100/75/50/25/dead downed penalty system to a 100/66/33/dead system in WvW. Interesting would also be the idea of removing 10 supply ("bandages") from your pool of supply for a successful rezz, to bring supply back to the meta-game.

Edited by Gorani.7205
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4 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

But as we know from previous discussion, any kind of arguments for or against is moot because the other side we are trying to argue with accept absolutely no compromise. They say downstate removed period. That leaves no room for anything. And talking to a brick wall is pretty pointless. So as I said... here we go again. Inc brick walls.

Oh...in that case

See you next week when the same topic comes up ?

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22 minutes ago, ChrisWhitey.9076 said:

Getting hit should interrupt revival and cancel it so that hand revival is not a priority in combat.

You might as well have suggested no downstate, that would effectivly make it impossible (and utterly pointless) to even try to res. The entire point of downstate is the complete opposite - make it a priority in combat, use teamplay to bring people back. There is already tactics to interrupt. It's called CC.

Your idea would also be extremely harsh to smallscale in particular while doing basicly nothing to zerging. And that to me is completely kitten backwards.

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With our combat system, No Downed State would favor the side that can best cope with lag spikes. 

Rally should be scrapped and I think everyone should get the same set of generic mitigating Downed skills that give a chance but won't disrupt the flow of a good large fight. I'd take a skill that can allow other players to press G or something to slowly drag me out of the way like the Medic /drag ability in old Starwars Galaxies and maybe something to throw at the enemy to slow them a bit if I want to be a hero. 

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I like to rez over time skills but not the out right rez some one. Maybe we need to make all rez skills into over time effects giving space for ppl to conter the skill it self (of cores make the skills have an lower cd and make them aoe over all.)

On top of that we may be better off having spike skills work the same way an over time spike but faster then the normal player spike as well as aoe.

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There is a meta where instead of wining can be done by using revival skills to all downs then just burn cause the enemy wasted the spike. I don't like it but if it becomes the new meta I gotta role with it.

Edit - removed how it is done cause guilds want to keep it a secret

Edited by ChrisWhitey.9076
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11 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Oh boy here we go again.

I know that been talked a lot but, no downed state is better. This will also give more chance to players who likes roaming solo or with small groups to play. WvW has not many roamers and this is causing WvW become boring out of prime times. But at least if you can take down one of them, that will give the energy to roam more for that player. Some people say its "GUILD Wars"; yes but boring is boring. In past at least with core era that wasnt a big problem but now there a lot of broken builds + downed state to handle. Some of my friends start game but after experiencing WvW, they say "There are only big fights, even if I down someone they res before I finish them, then kill me" and they stop playing WvW..

From the other side, while no dowstate gives opputunity to fight for people who don't like being in a big group, that will also make people follow their commander better. Cuz tail means death. So if people want to play in big groups, they will have to be more aware of commander rather than throwing skills around and ppt.

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As seen by just what we have so far there are a lot of options and potential changes that might make it be less of an issue of numbers and more of an issue of choices. An example from just this thread. When talking 1:1 is that revival of downed or resurrection(rez) of defeated? Should there be impact on defeated like forced respawn? A middle ground there might be bleed out or cleaved can be rezed but spiked are forced to respawn as a simple example of differences.

As a player that likes no downstate weeks but am not in favor of no downstate permanent is that when you drop a member of a larger group odds are good that they are out which gives you more chance of taking on the larger group. So if your goal in attacking a larger side was to slow their side down there is more of an impact in trying to do so which means more fighting versus people running away from fights. At times it actually triggers more conflict and play versus players avoiding the conflict when they have no chance since even in a pyrrhic victory just a few survivors can in short order rez a good number of defeated allies and they can just continue on as if it was a total victory.

Considering the number of differing mechanics that make up downstate we have a number of combinations that could be tried in test weeks that would still allow for having a downstate but not one that just favors numbers.

Examples of mix and match from above and prior threads:

  • No rally
  • 1:1 Revive
  • 1:1 Rez
  • Defeated Respawn - no rez
  • Spiked Respawn, cleaved/bleed out can be rez'd
  • No extra HP while downed
  • Limited Revive numbers (100/66/33)
  • Supply cost on reviving (that one is new 😉 )
  • 3:1 Revive
  • Limit revive skills
  • Increase revive skill cooldowns
  • ......

When you consider mixing and matching those and others there are a lot of options to adjust downstate so size is no just the major factor. An example of the above might be 1:1 Rally, 3:1 Revive, Spiked means respawn. Another is No rally, 3:1 revive, defeated respawn-no rez, and on and on.

Right now we have regular weeks and no downstate weeks, yet there are so many other options I don't think it needs to be one or the other.

 

 

Edited by TheGrimm.5624
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15 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

1. There is a one to one ratio limit on how many players can rally up from a death of an enemy.

2. The same concept should apply to Reviving an ally with F, only a limit of one player is permitted to do so, not five players for an instant revive. If they are unwilling to change the amount of players that can revive one(because of pve), then maybe they should slow down the revive amount while in combat in wvw.

3. Instant revive skills should only have one target. Signet of Undeath has 1, Signet of Mercy has 1, Glyph of Renewal has 1, Illusion of Life should only have 1.

4. The utility revive skills should have very long cooldowns, like 240sec or more.

5. The elite revive skills like warrior banner has 5 targets and 120s cooldown.

6. The elites revive skills should keep their 120s cooldown but their targets should also drop to 1 or 3 at most. The lower cooldown than the utilities are their "bonus" for being an elite skill.

Some of you want no downed state, but that ain't happening.

Discuss 🍦

In general I am not opposed to players creating medic builds. Had this on one of the roamer alts. Set them with various aspects to revive faster and any skills that could aid getting downed up. It had the cost of not doing as well on its own survival or winning fights so there was a cost to doing it. Was fun at the expense of winning solo fights but dodging in and out of a fight to get people up had its moments.

Illusion of Life, that's a different story, needs a better indicator to the player its being applied to so that they better known what they need to do in the short time they have lol, but that's off topic.

War Banner dropping to 3 I could see. Have 3 or 4 of most classes, on the Wars I think just 1 runs it now, that Medic build above.

1:1 Rally makes more sense than the old system and I think it still plays the same role for roamers, small scale and large scale. 

Limiting numbers to revive or resurrect or combinations could be interesting. Example allow for 5:1 on revive but 1:1 on rez or 0 so that there is more pressure for players to get the downed up else there is more price on them for not doing so. A test middle group might be 3:1 Revie, 1:1 Rez.

As I said before I think outside of even points there should be more risk/reward to spiking a downed, so could see a forced respawn on a spiked player. Lots of potential options to adjust but keep the overal mechanism so that there are gameplay options and choices for a player to make from both sides of a fight.

All that said we are overdue for a no downstate week. 🍿

 

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I'd like to see ress skills reworked. The fact that their range in general is 1200 units and you can of ignore going into damage for a ress is terrible design. If anything, skills should work like MI on guard where you are ported to a person and then maybe forced into a "ressurecting player" state. That would force people to get into danger and to be very reactive when using their skills.

I'd also like the "no rally from kills". It would help smaller groups with being able to do some kind of hit and run strats while forcing the group with downs to reset for resses, or take the offensive.

Lastly, I'd like to see some penalty for being ressed. Something along the lines of "HP, healing and damage reduced by X% for Y seconds".

 

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I don't mind if downstate exists. If a group is coordinated enough to get their downs back up, good on them. But I definitely would like to see downstate reworked so it's more challenging for bigger/more comped groups to just instant-rez their downs vs smaller groups. 

  1. Remove the invulnerable state when someone initially goes down.
  2. Decrease the number of people who can hard rez from 5 to 1 (or even 3). 
  3. All the instant revive skills should work like Signet of Undeath and require the player to sacrifice a chunk of their health and give it to the downed person. It'd be even more interesting if the amount of health the downed person got varied based on the actual health of the skill user (eg: lower health on warr means the person getting bannered gets up with lower health). But I know this one would be more of a pipe dream; the first two are more reasonable. 
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