Reworking SA traitline or adding improved reveal to all classes

[kiranslee.4829]

At what point in what is now , 11 years now, we are going to see SA traitline reworked and more reveal added to all classes/builds. Maybe its possible to make thief class that needs some skill to play at some point ? Just a thought 😄 .

[Auragen.4162]

Every class has Target Painter already? I have 100 in my inventory and use them all the time.

It has already been reworked so that the traits activate on entering/exiting stealth, as all the complainers about stealth camping wanted. In other words, you already got what you wanted and didn't even realize it. Maybe you should address your own skill and knowledge before demanding a huge rework that has already happened exactly how the complainers wanted it to happen?

Game updates/2022-06-28

Before the rework there were already a ton of clueless complainers saying "stealth stack bad, SA would be fixed if you made them enter/exit stealth!". And here we are. And people still complain because Shadowstep just EXISTS. Y'all need to get good. 99% of thieves in WVW that don't have thousands of hours at this point are free kills for any meta Celestial build, or useless bodies on the map not doing much at all.

Edit: reacting confused doesn't change the reality of the patch notes lol 🤪🤡 stay mad stay bad

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Auragen.4162

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

At this point, I'm confident that all teef mains has an alarm that goes off whenever someone wants to bring teefs bs in line with other non-clownish classes. Dude instantly brings Target Painter to the table, forgetting that's a tool to mark enemy position for your whole server to see their movement, not some tool to fight clowns. Funnily enough, stealth abusers always forget it requires to hit a target (which will fail if enemy just steps outside or ports away) and it costs supplies which is finite amount. And it's not reveal but marked, which still allows stealth~
Imagine that you could only sit in stealth for maximum 3s and after that you're getting revealed for 3s that can't be removed in any way, but nooo, that would be too balanced and teefs would actually need to learn how to play. 

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

3 hours ago, kiranslee.4829 said:

more reveal added to all classes/builds. Maybe its possible to make thief class that needs some skill to play at some point ? Just a thought 😄 .

More reveal is just a bandaid. Stealth needs a rework, but it has needed it for 11 years, so these threads are just pointless.

@TrollingDemigod.3041 "Imagine that you could only sit in stealth for maximum 3s and after that you're getting revealed for 3s that can't be removed in any way, but nooo, that would be too balanced and teefs would actually need to learn how to play. "

That's what I defend too, a simple and elegant solution.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Lincolnbeard.1735

[kiranslee.4829]

There is a lot posts on how to fix SA traitline or stealth in general, problem is anet lets balancing into hands of ppl like sind and misha and never read anything else.  2nd problem are thief fanboiz who dont wish to learn how to play but rather QQ instantly on anything even related to thief.

PS.

I love the comment on painter trap that made my day, and i agree tbh , let me use it insta cast and with cost on 1 supply and we can start talking :).

[Auragen.4162]

2 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Imagine that you could only sit in stealth for maximum 3s and after that you're getting revealed for 3s that can't be removed in any way, but nooo, that would be too balanced and teefs would actually need to learn how to play. 

As you sit there complaining about an existing counter to thieves everyone has in their inventory and how you're incapable of using it efficiently lol so I guess it might as well not exist (I use it just fine tho?).

Good thief doesn't need stealth to survive (I fight while Marked and vs reveal specs all the time). Good thief uses stealth to deal damage because it's the only way to get access to stealth attacks. If I can keep Backstab while revealed/marked, do whatever you want then lol I'll show you how what you're complaining about is lack of skill, not stealth.

Protip, keep supply available when you're playing WVW. 🤪 Although cheaper target painter would be reasonable IMO.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Auragen.4162

[Auragen.4162]

5 minutes ago, kiranslee.4829 said:

I love the comment on painter trap that made my day, and i agree tbh , let me use it insta cast and with cost on 1 supply and we can start talking :).

You would still be crying that the thief didn't willingly hand his life over to you instead of waiting out the Marked to kill your crutching kitten.

[Acemos.2856]

It’s sad to see these posts over and over again; instead of learning how to counter a class that is meant for roaming and stealth, some people prefer to complain and hope that Arenanet will change the game to suit them. Whenever I see posts like this, I have to wonder if you have any experience with thief or if you're even here to have a constructive discussion. In fact, I just checked your forum history and it’s full of you ranting on various threads about how thief is OP, deadeye is OP, shadow arts is OP, and Cele is balanced and fine (lol). You have the means, you just need to stop being lazy and get better. From some of the comments in this thread, it seems that some don’t even grasp the basics of the game. Target painters are easy to use and mark a thief for 30 seconds; it’s not just a reveal, it forces thieves out of stealth if they stay longer than 1 second, essentially giving you the upper hand in a fight. A skilled player wouldn’t even need target painters because they can handle thieves and stealth, probably because they know the class’s abilities and tactics. That’s what it boils down to. Improve, expand your choices, and be creative with solutions. Don’t be scared to adapt and switch utilities or even traits.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Acemos.2856

[Dawdler.8521]

Just today I saw a thief attacking a camp and even the npcs didnt know wtf to make of it. 

He was hitting a guard for maybe 20% HP and instantly vanished. By instantly, I do mean instantly. The rest in the camp didnt move. The guard he hit didnt even react. Popped up again, 20% more HP, instantly vanish. Repeat every other second. The guards acted like the thief wasnt even there because he just appeared and instantly vanish the millisecond he hit.

It was so stupid to watch I had to laugh. 

And says everything about how stupid stealth on no cd is.

[Leger.3724]

Imagine being so good at game design you have to add a consumable item people can use from their inventory to counter a combat mechanic.

[Mimizu.7340]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Just today I saw a thief attacking a camp and even the npcs didnt know wtf to make of it. 

He was hitting a guard for maybe 20% HP and instantly vanished. By instantly, I do mean instantly. The rest in the camp didnt move. The guard he hit didnt even react. Popped up again, 20% more HP, instantly vanish. Repeat every other second. The guards acted like the thief wasnt even there because he just appeared and instantly vanish the millisecond he hit.

It was so stupid to watch I had to laugh. 

And says everything about how stupid stealth on no cd is.

You witnessed the core thief build that can glitch into certain objectives and kill the Lord without any npcs reacting or the map showing the under siege icon. 

It's used by many solo players, usually during the long lonely nightshifts.

[Acemos.2856]

1 hour ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Just today I saw a thief attacking a camp and even the npcs didnt know wtf to make of it. 

He was hitting a guard for maybe 20% HP and instantly vanished. By instantly, I do mean instantly. The rest in the camp didnt move. The guard he hit didnt even react. Popped up again, 20% more HP, instantly vanish. Repeat every other second. The guards acted like the thief wasnt even there because he just appeared and instantly vanish the millisecond he hit.

It was so stupid to watch I had to laugh. 

And says everything about how stupid stealth on no cd is.

I don't feel like this is a good argument. You're using an example of a thief fighting an NPC in WvW to support your claim, but that's irrelevant to the actual PvP aspect of the game mode. NPCs aren't players, they have fixed patterns and behaviors that can be easily exploited by any profession, not just thieves lol. NPCs don't react to stealth, they don't use reveal skills, they don't coordinate with other players, and they don't adapt to different situations. They're there just to provide basic objectives for players. With some skill and awareness, people can play around stealth.

[Leger.3724]

5 minutes ago, Acemos.2856 said:

I don't feel like this is a good argument. You're using an example of a thief fighting an NPC in WvW to support your claim, but that's irrelevant to the actual PvP aspect of the game mode. NPCs aren't players, they have fixed patterns and behaviors that can be easily exploited by any profession, not just thieves lol. NPCs don't react to stealth, they don't use reveal skills, they don't coordinate with other players, and they don't adapt to different situations. They're there just to provide basic objectives for players. With some skill and awareness, people can play around stealth.

The devs had to invent a purchasable resource after the launch of the game that you use from your inventory to counter stealth.

How about this? You have to pay a tax to play. If the counter costs money then mechanic should cost money.

[Acemos.2856]

8 minutes ago, Mimizu.7340 said:

You witnessed the core thief build that can glitch into certain objectives and kill the Lord without any npcs reacting or the map showing the under siege icon. 

It's used by many solo players, usually during the long lonely nightshifts.

Yes, this should be fixed. Exploiting things in the game to break into objectives is unfair; Arenanet should fix these exploits and punish players that abuse it. It should be noted that this, unfortunately, isn't the only exploit in WvW too. Being creative with gliding, warclaw, and certain other class skills allow players to bypass needing to break walls and gates to gain entry into objectives.

[Acemos.2856]

11 minutes ago, Leger.3724 said:

The devs had to invent a purchasable resource after the launch of the game that you use from your inventory to counter stealth.

How about this? You have to pay a tax to play. If the counter costs money then mechanic should cost money.

So, you're arguing that stealth is unfair because it requires a purchasable resource to counter? This would be a decent argument if the target painter was the only way to counter stealth. First, there are other skills and traits that reveal or can damage stealthed enemies; Knowing how stealth works can also be helpful. Stealth doesn't make them everywhere all at once, keep in mind that they still need to move or walk around, they only have so many options. Second, the target painter isn't a tax to play, it's a strategic option that you can choose to use or not. I don't think the devs invented the target painter for the sole purpose of countering stealth, but rather as a way to mark enemies for easier coordination and focus. Using it in small skirmishes is a way of adapting and gaining the upper hand, not a necessity. 
Your suggestion that if the counter costs money then the mechanic should cost money is absurd. By that logic, maybe damaging people should cost money since there are items that boost and reduce damage lol.

[Sleepwalker.1398]

1 hour ago, Acemos.2856 said:

I don't feel like this is a good argument. You're using an example of a thief fighting an NPC in WvW to support your claim, but that's irrelevant to the actual PvP aspect of the game mode. NPCs aren't players, they have fixed patterns and behaviors that can be easily exploited by any profession, not just thieves lol. NPCs don't react to stealth, they don't use reveal skills, they don't coordinate with other players, and they don't adapt to different situations. They're there just to provide basic objectives for players. With some skill and awareness, people can play around stealth.

oh my man, please come to T1 NA and join either the Reds or Blues side and show us how you combat the 3 clowns from Green side that are abusing stealth so much with mobility..

If you can provide me video evidence that you killed them, i'll believe all that you saying.

[Zekent.3652]

14 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

At this point, I'm confident that all teef mains has an alarm that goes off whenever someone wants to bring teefs bs in line with other non-clownish classes. Dude instantly brings Target Painter to the table, forgetting that's a tool to mark enemy position for your whole server to see their movement, not some tool to fight clowns.

I mean, very single forum user has some funny bias, but man, forum D/P SA thieves are the funniest ones lmao

Edited December 31, 2023 by Zekent.3652

[Oslaf Beinir.5842]

Target painter doesnt kill a slightly above average thief who presses buttons, stop coping would you?

[Junkpile.7439]

Good idea, but reveal should only work against thiefs who using sa traitline.

[Acemos.2856]

2 hours ago, Oslaf Beinir.5842 said:

Target painter doesnt kill a slightly above average thief who presses buttons, stop coping would you?

Your reply is a bit dismissive and rude, and doesn't address the main points. A target painter isn't a magic bullet that kills thieves instantly, it's a strategic option that you can choose to use or not; It can be a tremendous help towards fighting a thief, but only if you use it at the right time and place. Using it willy-nilly at the start of combat is not as helpful as using it later in the fight, when the thief is lower on health or resources. A poor player using a target painter isn't going to kill a slightly above-average thief, but a smart player using a target painter can make a big difference.

[Auragen.4162]

1 hour ago, Acemos.2856 said:

Your reply is a bit dismissive and rude, and doesn't address the main points. A target painter isn't a magic bullet that kills thieves instantly, it's a strategic option that you can choose to use or not; It can be a tremendous help towards fighting a thief, but only if you use it at the right time and place. Using it willy-nilly at the start of combat is not as helpful as using it later in the fight, when the thief is lower on health or resources. A poor player using a target painter isn't going to kill a slightly above-average thief, but a smart player using a target painter can make a big difference.

You see, it doesn't work because the thief didn't instantly reach 0 HP after I painted him!!!!! 😡I just want to turn my brain off and have the game win itself UGH!

[Leger.3724]

7 hours ago, Acemos.2856 said:

So, you're arguing that stealth is unfair because it requires a purchasable resource to counter? This would be a decent argument if the target painter was the only way to counter stealth. First, there are other skills and traits that reveal or can damage stealthed enemies; Knowing how stealth works can also be helpful. Stealth doesn't make them everywhere all at once, keep in mind that they still need to move or walk around, they only have so many options. Second, the target painter isn't a tax to play, it's a strategic option that you can choose to use or not. I don't think the devs invented the target painter for the sole purpose of countering stealth, but rather as a way to mark enemies for easier coordination and focus. Using it in small skirmishes is a way of adapting and gaining the upper hand, not a necessity. 
Your suggestion that if the counter costs money then the mechanic should cost money is absurd. By that logic, maybe damaging people should cost money since there are items that boost and reduce damage lol.

 

Stealth is unfun and it was so unfun they had to develop a consumable item purchasable for currency to counter it in a game mode.

Look at the approach serious games took (League of Legends - Evelynn, stealth wards since inception of the game)  and then look at games like this.

I guess they just figured thief mains are bigger whiners so they couldn't actually nerf it to make gameplay somewhat fun. Imagine stealth and teleportation not being completely braindead crutches for people who main velcro shoes IRL.

[T G.7496]

Game meant to be fun.

Playing against thief fun for exactly one player.

Bad game design.

[Sobx.1758]

18 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

Imagine that you could only sit in stealth for maximum 3s and after that you're getting revealed for 3s that can't be removed in any way, but nooo, that would be too balanced and teefs would actually need to learn how to play. 

I also proposed something similar in the past. I think it would be better to "balance stealth around itself", so to speak, instead of making it a deal of "it's oppressive, but here's the counterplay to completely shut it down for whatever amount of time".
I think out of combat stealth stacking should be allowed. In-combat stealth stacking shouldn't. Any time someone comes out of stealth -whether they attacked or not- they should be revealed to consistently provide windows of opportunity during fights. And then remove reveal skills because the point is to provide fair environment for both sides and not to completely shut down the mechanic a class is balanced around. Trying to balance stelath around itself while still leaving complete shut-down mechanics would be stupid.

So I agree with the core of what you're proposing, but with some additional changes on top of it.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Sobx.1758

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

14 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I also proposed something similar in the past. I think it would be better to "balance stealth around itself", so to speak, instead of making it a deal of "it's oppressive, but here's the counterplay to completely shut it down for whatever amount of time".
I think out of combat stealth stacking should be allowed. In-combat stealth stacking shouldn't. Any time someone comes out of stealth -whether they attacked or not- they should be revealed to consistently provide windows of opportunity during fights. And then remove reveal skills because the point is to provide fair environment for both sides and not to completely shut down the mechanic a class is balanced around. Trying to balance stelath around itself while still leaving complete shut-down mechanics would be stupid.

So I agree with the core of what you're proposing, but with some additional changes on top of it.

Yes and no, teefs has too much mobility outside of stealth access, so their reset potential is too high and allowing them to stack stealth out of combat will not fix much. If they would be out of combat for longer than 30s then sure, but if they get out of combat and then can stack stealth again then no.