[PvE] Celestial stats in need of a trim.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

4 hours ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Celestial rev can solo silent surf cm.

Celestial reaper is insane in pve.

The fact a celestial geared character can solo what should NOT BE SOLOABLE.... is a problem. The overall stat total is very very high and allows for some really rare but overpowered builds.
I would advise looking at hizen on youtube to see just how stupid the celestial stat set is. 

Its not about the min/max of 1 focused heal / barrier well the rest are focused dps. Its about how with celestial stat set you can do what you should need 5 people for with 1 or 2. 
The whole point is that if you go high survival you drop dps and if you go high support you give up dps and if you go high dps you give up survival. That keeps balance for group content. Celestial = bring 1/5 the mount of players and beat the same content. 

If the power creep was not bad enough.
If the healing power was not already handled bad enough with some skills scaling off it and others taking maybe 30 more hps with 2k healing power.......
We have celestial just throwing away balance. 

And you think with the buff coming on the 30th for rev condi damage....... watch 2-3 celestial heralds solo any and all 10man. 

If you're thinking about min/max you wont care about celestial. If you're thinking balance........ well.

Congratz! 

You build yourself immortal and tickled a boss to death. What an insane display of skill.

If only being able to killing something meant something in PvE. 

 

Cele Reaper is insane? Where? Openworld? 

Again. Congratz I guess. Necro scaling good with Cele + Reaper, which is easy top 3 best elite spec in Openworld. 

Who would have thought. 

 

Kinda crazy that I said, like many others, that Cele is a niche stat combo. People then telling us their niche scenarios in which Cele is good to make a point. MIND BLOWN🤯

So yes, Cele is in fact training wheels in the vast majority of time, except some niche scenarios. 

 

[Phyb.6704]

Rev is one example. I did not say it was the only one. 

Anet have stated in the Guild Wars 2 Balance Philosophy

***

Power Budget

For a given skill or trait, there is a "power budget" that can be spent on individual elements. A skill that only deals damage can deal X damage, but if that skill also applies conditions or provides other value, then it needs to deal less damage to stay within budget. In the context of a weapon, the budget is considered across the entire kit, so some skills may be weaker than average in order to allocate more power to a particular skill. Budget can also vary depending on a skill's cooldown; skills with longer cooldowns are generally more powerful.

Trait budgets are to be considered on a per-tier basis; adept traits should have less power than grandmaster traits.

***

If a prof, spec, class, build, whatever you want to call it..... 

Can go from a 40k pure dps build to a celestial build and retain ROUGHLY half the dps. ROUGHLY means some fights require more movment or utility use then others. Less damage skills vs utility skills used in a set period of time will effect the dps. If well retaining  roughly half the dps they get enough self sustain to stay alive in a solo encounter meant for 5 people AND have enough dps to clear a dps check such as an enrage timer for example. I am not saying there is or is not one on a specific encounter as I am not listing a specific encounter in this post. It could be a fractal, strike, bounty, or whatever else..... Then the power of the survival utility and damage is not being balanced correctly in regards to the "budget". 

Once again rev is one example and yes Hizen is showing the ceiling of what can be done on many classes in regards to solo play however in truth the game is not THAT hard to play. Its not THAT hard to learn said builds. If players can handle weaver and its "dance dance revolution" then they can learn those builds as well. 

If the difaculty of using said builds was very high then this could be argued as part of the "budget" as it puts skill into the calc. I am not saying its super easy but its also not "rocket science" either. 

The power creep does need a squish IMO and celestial is a stat set that IMO is allowing things that should not be possible. HOWEVER I would also argue that celestial would not be such a problem is the power creep was not so bad. If the power creep was not so bad then a player probably could not get away with spreading stats out so far and would be forced to focus in on damage or survival more. The power creep being so bad allows celestial to be abused IMO. 

My point is there is things that should and should not be possible if a power budget and balance is done well. It is not just about what is done in the "meta" but what is possible that needs to be thought about as the area outside "meta" play is likely to get overlooked and then something starts getting abused. 

I would like to see the budget looked at first because celestial could be fine. However if the budget is disregarded as it currently is then then I would like to see celestial trimmed as IMO I see it becoming more of an issue as the power creep continues.

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Gaiawolf.8261 said:

Here's a guy that watches a Lord Hizen video and thinks it's because of the stats.

This just in: Puma shoes OP because Usain Bolt can break 27 mph in them. NERF PUMA SHOES!

Not Vindi (or cele), Hizen.

I imagine if you asked Hizen he would tell you that salvation vindi is the most durable build today, which is why he uses it for the most difficult challenges.

[Phyb.6704]

34 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

I imagine if you asked Hizen he would tell you that salvation vindi is the most durable build today, which is why he uses it for the most difficult challenges.

Yep. Never said this was just 1 build.

Imagine if healing power was more impactful.
But going even 1500 healing power gets you from 239 (1195)  to 349 (1745 ) barrier. Imagine if the total barrier was 0 with zero healing power and 1500 with 1500 healing power..... Now you actually need to budget for the self survival. 

Self survival is really not impacted enough by stats in many situations. Resilient spirit is just one example. You can still have some great self survival well you give up a lot of healing power for damage. 
This is not the only case but it is one example. 

Though I do enjoy not having to invest heavy into survival stats like healing power and toughness to have great self survival..... personally it makes me feel op. But from a balance perspective it is lacking imo. 

 

[Matoro.9708]

I've been playing with Celestial since 2017 and I've never once felt OP. I definitely notice when I survive hits other people don't, sort of feels like the Elden Ring vigor check but with toughness instead. The viability varies depending on profession, for me it was ideal with core engi because of all the different kits and hybrid choices. I'm mostly playing core ranger now and I really feel the desire to switch more often given how much more binary the choices are between power and condi. Regardless, I kill things much much slower than other builds and know I would get screamed at in a raid, for example, and got chewed out by some random for wearing it to strikes. 

[Leo G.4501]

On 1/23/2024 at 3:07 PM, LSD.4673 said:

A dungeon path awards 100 dungeon tokens, while a raid wing only provides 1 LI.

Just cos there's more, doesn't make them better. The vast majority of specs can't use all the stats, and in PvE of all places, the extra stats don't add up to anything meaningful. In fact, you're at a disadvantage cos you'll be sat there plinking away at mobs instead of killing them.

That is also a point in the OP's favor. Yeah, quite a few specs can't take advantage of cele to it's fullest...but which ones can? Elementalist specs, Herald, Chrono, etc....and that leaves other specs in a deficit. I'd be even bolder to call out the abundance of +% dmg they've added sharpens the edges of defensive builds, particularly cele that should be hurting for offensive. Of course you're not melting things, but you don't need to (outside of raids), you just need to do *enough* while puking out decent boons. I wonder which specs fill in that description...

[Phyb.6704]

3 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

That is also a point in the OP's favor. Yeah, quite a few specs can't take advantage of cele to it's fullest...but which ones can? Elementalist specs, Herald, Chrono, etc....and that leaves other specs in a deficit. I'd be even bolder to call out the abundance of +% dmg they've added sharpens the edges of defensive builds, particularly cele that should be hurting for offensive. Of course you're not melting things, but you don't need to (outside of raids), you just need to do *enough* while puking out decent boons. I wonder which specs fill in that description...

+ anything that is either a number or % that does not scale off stats or scales very little off stats is kitten.

Rev resilient spirit is one example of it a trait that gives dmg builds survivability with little trade off. Rev battle scars is a trait that should have just been made more dependant on healing power investment so you would be forced to trade dmg for the healing. Instead the scaling was pushed into the ground and its honestly pretty kitten for both damage and healing.

Much like how the % dmg bonuses give defensive builds free damage. I would debate that all def traits or spells should do zero healing or barrier if you have zero healing power and any % dmg bonuses should in some way scale off dmg stats like 1% for every 100 power or something like that. 

I will never understand why they did not make traits and skills much more dependant on stats. I would think that would make balance easier then having  no healing power and getting 1195 free barrier every 3 sec with zero investment in regards to stats. Would probably help the power creep as well if going full berzerker gear with no healing power and toughness meant being cc'd for longer, no self healing and getting crit harder. Then in order to not get 1 hit constantly you would actually have to sacrifice some damage. 

This is one of the largest problems with the gw2 balance philosphy and power budget system as instead of adjusting scaling they just said.... elite spec doesnt do nuf dmg.... give it 5% bonus in the trait line. Instead of adjusting the scaling of stats. It is LAZY. 

[Gaiawolf.8261]

4 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

That is also a point in the OP's favor. Yeah, quite a few specs can't take advantage of cele to it's fullest...but which ones can? Elementalist specs, Herald, Chrono, etc....and that leaves other specs in a deficit. I'd be even bolder to call out the abundance of +% dmg they've added sharpens the edges of defensive builds, particularly cele that should be hurting for offensive. Of course you're not melting things, but you don't need to (outside of raids), you just need to do *enough* while puking out decent boons. I wonder which specs fill in that description...

Firebrand and mirage can also make full use of celestial stats. Any mesmer using Chaos, really. The most that celestial stats start to be a problem in open world is when you have to solo dps a boss down before an event timer runs out. Sometime offensive stats are better then.

[AliamRationem.5172]

4 hours ago, Leo G.4501 said:

That is also a point in the OP's favor. Yeah, quite a few specs can't take advantage of cele to it's fullest...but which ones can? Elementalist specs, Herald, Chrono, etc....and that leaves other specs in a deficit. I'd be even bolder to call out the abundance of +% dmg they've added sharpens the edges of defensive builds, particularly cele that should be hurting for offensive. Of course you're not melting things, but you don't need to (outside of raids), you just need to do *enough* while puking out decent boons. I wonder which specs fill in that description...

Call me crazy, but I've never seen or heard of a celestial power build.  They're all condi builds because the power and ferocity are too low (and on most classes the weapons you would use that have conditions to take advantage of cele's hybrid nature have lower coefficients than full power weapons).  Sure, %dmg is better than nothing, but you wouldn't, for example, run a fire/air ele build with celestial stats, scholar runes, etc. because you'll do more damage if you run fire/earth with trapper rune and the usual trimmings for a condition build.  

Am I wrong?  Can you show me a cele power build that deals great damage?  When I try it out on my weaver I easily do more damage with a condi build.  Am I doing it wrong?

[Dadnir.5038]

5 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Am I wrong?

I'd say that you're right but try reaper if you want a cele strike damage build.

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'd say that you're right but try reaper if you want a cele strike damage build.

Can almost guarantee the bleed on chill version is going to deal majority damage from conditions and more damage than if you don't focus on conditions, but I am not experienced with it, so prove me wrong.  I want to see a cele power build beat a cele condi build in damage.  It'll be educational either way.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

12 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Call me crazy, but I've never seen or heard of a celestial power build.  They're all condi builds because the power and ferocity are too low (and on most classes the weapons you would use that have conditions to take advantage of cele's hybrid nature have lower coefficients than full power weapons).  Sure, %dmg is better than nothing, but you wouldn't, for example, run a fire/air ele build with celestial stats, scholar runes, etc. because you'll do more damage if you run fire/earth with trapper rune and the usual trimmings for a condition build.  

Am I wrong?  Can you show me a cele power build that deals great damage?  When I try it out on my weaver I easily do more damage with a condi build.  Am I doing it wrong?

I'll do cele with warrior rifle/Greatsword or dual axe. The expertise is nice for non damaging conditions.

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'll do cele with warrior rifle/Greatsword or dual axe. The expertise is nice for non damaging conditions.

Any idea what the DPS looks like in solo play with that build?  Just for the sake of comparison, as best I can tell 15-20k is the ballpark for celestial condi builds in solo play.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

19 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Any idea what the DPS looks like in solo play with that build?  Just for the sake of comparison, as best I can tell 15-20k is the ballpark for celestial condi builds in solo play.

ArcDPS keeps doing weird stuff on my PC so I stopped trying to keep it installed. FWIW I ran those sorts of builds in WvW prior to Cele becoming rampant and periodically in OW. The DPS isn't bad, but you won't be topping DPS meters either. I would take Ferocity, Power, and Crit Chance/Precision boosting traits from the traitlines to shore up the power DPS. Pretty much the only wasted stat is condition damage.

You can build a Cele warrior with 3.8k power, 100% crit chance, and 241% critical damage fully buffed in PvE. You used to get it to 4k until they removed the toughness->power trait in Defense. The numbers are a little lower but still very high in WvW (3.6k power, 85% crit, and 228% crit damage, though adding in SoF and a different utility/food can get you to higher crit chance).

[taara.3217]

2 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I'll do cele with warrior rifle/Greatsword or dual axe

There are more things in heaven and Earth, Horatio,  
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy... )

[taara.3217]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:12 AM, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

The fact a celestial geared character can solo what should NOT BE SOLOABLE.... is a problem.

1. Your experience and knowing of the game mechanics much more important that your gear
2. I'm not sure there is content in the game that can be soloed only with Cele but not with Dire or Trailblazer's (eg)

Edited January 26 by taara.3217

[Buran.3796]

7 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Can almost guarantee the bleed on chill version is going to deal majority damage from conditions and more damage than if you don't focus on conditions, but I am not experienced with it, so prove me wrong.  I want to see a cele power build beat a cele condi build in damage.  It'll be educational either way.

  Hizen had a celestial power Spellbreaker build with hammer + dagger & axe in his OW Spec Builds Part 1 from 4 months ago, but at PVE Spellbreaker in general is weaker at both dealing damage and self sustain compared to both celestial Berseker and power (assassin) Bladesworn:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKzAIhflJwuYTMKWJO2O/veA-DyIY1omvMKsCqIFs8sQACZP8aowoFoC-e

   I tried it and for me was clearly at least 3 tiers below the other two: Bldesworn does much more damage (but is relatively hard to play) whereas condi Berserker is both easy to play, tanky and has good damage. I'm of the opinion thatin power stats for solo OW PvE Bladesworn is probably the only decent choice since the alternatives (power Vindi, Willbender, Dragonhunter... ) have large holes in self sustain unless you make some trait choices that ruin your damage and at that point running a celestial hybrid damage build is just superior. I have litle experience with power Reaper, tho, but if the build were really, really good for solo we should have plenty of videos showcasing it and I think is not the case.

[AliamRationem.5172]

33 minutes ago, taara.3217 said:

1. Your experience and knowing of the game mechanics much more important that your gear
2. I'm not sure there is content in the game that can be soloed only with Cele but not with Dire or Trailblazer's (eg)

In the case of 100 CM on salvation vindi, it's both the fact that the build itself has an entire traitline devoted to sustain that benefits from healing power and the mechanics of the fight being both condition heavy and featuring damage that ignores armor.  Thus trailblazer/dire wouldn't necessarily be a great option for this specific scenario.  That doesn't invalidate your overall point.  It just means celestial was probably a better option for this particular fight and with that particular build.

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

  Hizen had a celestial power Spellbreaker build with hammer + dagger & axe in his OW Spec Builds Part 1 from 4 months ago, but at PVE Spellbreaker in general is weaker at both dealing damage and self sustain compared to both celestial Berseker and power (assassin) Bladesworn:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PKzAIhflJwuYTMKWJO2O/veA-DyIY1omvMKsCqIFs8sQACZP8aowoFoC-e

   I tried it and for me was clearly at least 3 tiers below the other two: Bldesworn does much more damage (but is relatively hard to play) whereas condi Berserker is both easy to play, tanky and has good damage. I'm of the opinion thatin power stats for solo OW PvE Bladesworn is probably the only decent choice since the alternatives (power Vindi, Willbender, Dragonhunter... ) have large holes in self sustain unless you make some trait choices that ruin your damage and at that point running a celestial hybrid damage build is just superior. I have litle experience with power Reaper, tho, but if the build were really, really good for solo we should have plenty of videos showcasing it and I think is not the case.

That's pretty much what I was thinking.

In any event, we're a long way from "OMG celestial is the best for everything! Nerf it!"

[Phyb.6704]

22 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Call me crazy, but I've never seen or heard of a celestial power build.  They're all condi builds because the power and ferocity are too low (and on most classes the weapons you would use that have conditions to take advantage of cele's hybrid nature have lower coefficients than full power weapons).  Sure, %dmg is better than nothing, but you wouldn't, for example, run a fire/air ele build with celestial stats, scholar runes, etc. because you'll do more damage if you run fire/earth with trapper rune and the usual trimmings for a condition build.  

Am I wrong?  Can you show me a cele power build that deals great damage?  When I try it out on my weaver I easily do more damage with a condi build.  Am I doing it wrong?

Celestial would not be just condi or strike dmg... its hybrid. Reaper for example can burst stack 100 bleed and have strike damage and high survival. Stop thinking only glass cannon damage builds. Being able to 1 man 5 man content is just as op as melting a boss that is supposed to take 10min in 30 sec. Both are far beyond what in intended and ignore balance. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 minutes ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

Celestial would not be just condi or strike dmg... its hybrid. Reaper for example can burst stack 100 bleed and have strike damage and high survival. Stop thinking only glass cannon damage builds. Being able to 1 man 5 man content is just as op as melting a boss that is supposed to take 10min in 30 sec. Both are far beyond what in intended and ignore balance. 

So then if Hizen solo'd a CM fractal in something other than celestial gear, presumably that would also be a problem for balance?  Because he did that years ago, you know?  Do you think maybe it's builds like pre-sustain nerf scourge and current salvation vindi that are simply impossible to kill if you slap some healing power on their gear that are the problem?  Do  you really think Hizen couldn't solo CM 100 in another set with healing power on it?  You keep insisting it's celestial that is the problem while ignoring literally everything else.

[Phyb.6704]

22 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

So then if Hizen solo'd a CM fractal in something other than celestial gear, presumably that would also be a problem for balance?  Because he did that years ago, you know?  Do you think maybe it's builds like pre-sustain nerf scourge and current salvation vindi that are simply impossible to kill if you slap some healing power on their gear that are the problem?  Do  you really think Hizen couldn't solo CM 100 in another set with healing power on it?  You keep insisting it's celestial that is the problem while ignoring literally everything else.

The point is that anet boasts a power budget within their balance style.

Celestial gives a MUCH higher stat total then any other set and allows certain builds to take advantage of that stat total and go beyond what is intended and break balance. This can be done outside of celestial gear and that is another subject about the power budget not being followed and going furhter into power creep and having too many things in traits and skills that are not at all or too little dependent on stats. That is another forum topic however. This is specifically about the celestial set.

I am not talking about the other stuff because this is a celestial forum topic and not a overall balance topic. 

I said previously that the main problem is having too many things be too little dependent on stats and how the power budget whole balance thing honestly has not been followed for years. I would rather fix the core problem but at this point that is a dead dream. 

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

The point is that anet boasts a power budget within their balance style.

Celestial gives a MUCH higher stat total then any other set and allows certain builds to take advantage of that stat total and go beyond what is intended and break balance. This can be done outside of celestial gear and that is another subject about the power budget not being followed and going furhter into power creep and having too many things in traits and skills that are not at all or too little dependent on stats. That is another forum topic however. This is specifically about the celestial set.

I am not talking about the other stuff because this is a celestial forum topic and not a overall balance topic. 

I said previously that the main problem is having too many things be too little dependent on stats and how the power budget whole balance thing honestly has not been followed for years. I would rather fix the core problem but at this point that is a dead dream. 

That's just it.  It is not specifically about celestial.  If you removed celestial today all of the issues you claim are symptomatic of the problem would still exist.  How can celestial be the root of the problem?

[Phyb.6704]

1 hour ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

That's just it.  It is not specifically about celestial.  If you removed celestial today all of the issues you claim are symptomatic of the problem would still exist.  How can celestial be the root of the problem?

When did I say it was the "root"? It contributes to a problem. I am fine with having a celestial stat set however in regards to the "power budget" I do not agree with how MUCH stat total the stat set gives. Its a much higher stat total then other stats. If the root problem was fixed then I do believe this would still need a trim as having a stat total so much higher then other sets may contribute to balance problems.

It needs a trim in my opinion because even if the root problem was fixed it is still too high a stat total. 
296 stat total from a zerk ring to 513 stat total from a cele ring. I could understand maybe a 20% ?? give or take from set to set  based on adjustments since some stats may be more impactful then others. An example is toughness for light armor vs heavy armor. You will hit the soft cap much sooner with heavy and make toughness past a certain point much less impactful. 
Cele should in theory be spreading an existing stat total of 250- 350 and spreading it across all stats. The stat total as I noted based on impact of stats may be + / - a little bit.  Giving over 70% more stat total and then spliting it across all stats is in my opinion is too much and bad for balance. Even if the root problem was fixed this could be a contributing factor to balance problem.

This is why I would like the set trimmed and if the effort to balance is not done then just remove it. That is my personal view.

edit: the stat total 250 - 350 is aprox as some sets have dif stat totals but cele is really really high relative to others. 

Edited January 27 by ohericoseo.4316

[AliamRationem.5172]

5 minutes ago, ohericoseo.4316 said:

When did I say it was the "root"? It contributes to a problem. I am fine with having a celestial stat set however in regards to the "power budget" I do not agree with how MUCH stat total the stat set gives. Its a much higher stat total then other stats. If the root problem was fixed then I do believe this would still need a trim as having a stat total so much higher then other sets may contribute to balance problems.

It needs a trim in my opinion because even if the root problem was fixed it is still too high a stat total. 
296 stat total from a zerk ring to 513 stat total from a cele ring. I could understand maybe a 20% ?? give or take from set to set  based on adjustments since some stats may be more impactful then others. An example is toughness for light armor vs heavy armor. You will hit the soft cap much sooner with heavy and make toughness past a certain point much less impactful. 
Cele should in theory be spreading an existing stat total of 250- 350 and spreading it across all stats. The stat total as I noted based on impact of stats may be + / - a little bit.  Giving over 70% more stat total and then spliting it across all stats is in my opinion is too much and bad for balance. Even if the root problem was fixed this could be a contributing factor to balance problem.

This is why I would like the set trimmed and if the effort to balance is not done then just remove it. That is my personal view.

edit: the stat total 250 - 350 is aprox as some sets have dif stat totals but cele is really really high relative to others. 

Except nothing works the way you seem to think it does.  If it worked the way you wanted it to, celestial would be completely worthless and nobody would use it except boosted players who don't know any better, which is what the change to celestial booster stats was intended to address in the first place.