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Rereading Sea of Sorrows, the Maw felt a bit weird


Slowpokeking.8720

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It was undead Risen, at least when it showed up the last time.

But it was eating both the Dead Ship and the Living Ship's crew, shouldn't it obey Zhaitan's will?

Maybe it's hinting that the Maw was DSD's minion so even as undead, it was not fully under Zhaitan's control?

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Soo-Woe's minions wouldn't be killing humans randomly.

Keep in mind the Elder Dragons don't care about the fate of their minions. The Maw's role was to gobble up everything that fell into the sea. The point of it was that it wasn't bothering to differentiate friend from foe - it was too stupid to do so. It was just following its orders of gobbling up everything that fell into the sea.

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6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Soo-Woe's minions wouldn't be killing humans randomly.

Keep in mind the Elder Dragons don't care about the fate of their minions. The Maw's role was to gobble up everything that fell into the sea. The point of it was that it wasn't bothering to differentiate friend from foe - it was too stupid to do so. It was just following its orders of gobbling up everything that fell into the sea.

At that time there was no Soo-Woe, obviously DSD was set to be evil as well.

Risen can still fight even after they fell into the sea, I don't think it's wise to reduce your own number during the fight.

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3 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

At that time there was no Soo-Woe, obviously DSD was set to be evil as well.

Risen can still fight even after they fell into the sea, I don't think it's wise to reduce your own number during the fight.

Leviathan's weren't really described as DSD minions, which were unknown but thought to be tentacled monsters. Maw is, as far as I know, simply a massive regular leviathan that was raised as a Risen Leviathan.

 

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5 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

At that time there was no Soo-Woe, obviously DSD was set to be evil as well.

Risen can still fight even after they fell into the sea, I don't think it's wise to reduce your own number during the fight.

"I don't think it's wise" is kind of the point from a Doylist perspective.

Tyrians didn't view the Elder Dragons as intellectual beings until the later half of the personal story - and even then that was only the view of Pact soldiers who fought through risen forces using tactics to trap them. So early actions would pretty visibly not make sense to someone expecting tactics.

Risen in general are an "overwhelm them with force" methodology, and Zhaitan specifically doesn't care if their numbers are reduced during the fight. They can always just make more. Easier to send dumb minions to do simple tasks rather than complicated tasks and kitten up.

Even if Soo-Woe wasn't invented as a remorseful mother full of woe at the time, the DSD was still unrelated to Leviathans or undead.

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7 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

"I don't think it's wise" is kind of the point from a Doylist perspective.

Tyrians didn't view the Elder Dragons as intellectual beings until the later half of the personal story - and even then that was only the view of Pact soldiers who fought through risen forces using tactics to trap them. So early actions would pretty visibly not make sense to someone expecting tactics.

Risen in general are an "overwhelm them with force" methodology, and Zhaitan specifically doesn't care if their numbers are reduced during the fight. They can always just make more. Easier to send dumb minions to do simple tasks rather than complicated tasks and kitten up.

Even if Soo-Woe wasn't invented as a remorseful mother full of woe at the time, the DSD was still unrelated to Leviathans or undead.

In Sea of Sorrows they knew Zhaitan was infusing will, and nearly all the crew on Indomitable was intelligent.  The Risen armada also showed clear tactics rather than just swarm in, especially the xebec ships.

Cobiah even said the xebec might be able to better understand Zhaitan's command.

 

Edited by Slowpokeking.8720
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2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

In Sea of Sorrows they knew Zhaitan was infusing will, and nearly all the crew on Indomitable was intelligent.  The Risen armada also showed clear tactics rather than just swarm in, especially the xebec ships.

Cobiah even said the xebec might be able to better understand Zhaitan's command.

Will != intelligence

It's well established in the lore that champions are smarter than the grunts. This was the first Tyrian acknowledgement, which didn't persist long enough to become common knowledge even among the military fighting the dragon minions.

My point remains. The Maw is not intelligent, and Zhaitan does not care about the survival of its own forces - because it can always make more.

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40 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Will != intelligence

It's well established in the lore that champions are smarter than the grunts. This was the first Tyrian acknowledgement, which didn't persist long enough to become common knowledge even among the military fighting the dragon minions.

My point remains. The Maw is not intelligent, and Zhaitan does not care about the survival of its own forces - because it can always make more.

Since this was the first major war against the Risen, I think ppl were well aware of Zhaitan's intelligence.

Jormag also being the example.

If it was ordinary time Zhaitan probably shouldn't care, but it was in a fierce war and it would be dumb to consume many of your own soldiers since it could result in a loss.

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34 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Since this was the first major war against the Risen, I think ppl were well aware of Zhaitan's intelligence.

Then you think wrong.

From a book on Elder Dragons in DR:

This book has been well-thumbed. In the introduction, it says, "They are ancient and unfathomable. They embody concepts of nature—fire, ice, crystal, even death—but their very presence threatens to destroy the world."

Forging the Pact, over a hundred years later:

Trahearne: Where did that come from? This was supposed to be our way out.
Agent Zrii: The Orrians funneled us here. They've shown disturbingly advanced tactics ever since we arrived.
Trahearne: Commander, to me. I need your opinion.

From the Zephyrites in Season 1:

Zephyrite (1): The dragons are not inherently evil, children. They're natural. They're forces of nature as are the wind, the sun, and the lightning.
Zephyrite (2): But they kill so many people. Doesn't that make them evil?
Zephyrite (1): Have you not known wind or sun or lightning to kill people?
Zephyrite (2): Well, yes.
Zephyrite (1): There you have your answer.

Three of many, many examples. Just play the personal story and you'll see it's clear as day that Tyrians were not aware of Zhaitan's intelligence. Just because some of the crew of the Indomintable show intelligence, doesn't mean they'd assume that's common place or even associated with Zhaitan itself. Double so if most people who were in the battle and saw this didn't survive, or just assumed it was because of the individuals they had known in life that got risen.

Most Tyrians fully believed the Elder Dragons to be mere "mindless forces of nature" up until the Pact assault.

38 minutes ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

If it was ordinary time Zhaitan probably shouldn't care, but it was in a fierce war and it would be dumb to consume many of your own soldiers since it could result in a loss.

What is a fierce war for an Elder Dragon who's loved over 30,000 years, seen countries fall and view mortals as ants on average?

If you go out into your yard and begin hosing down anthills, is this a fierce war to you? Do you care about the water consumption? No, you wouldn't.

A fierce war to an Elder Dragon is a war with another Elder Dragon or equal being.

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26 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Then you think wrong.

From a book on Elder Dragons in DR:

This book has been well-thumbed. In the introduction, it says, "They are ancient and unfathomable. They embody concepts of nature—fire, ice, crystal, even death—but their very presence threatens to destroy the world."

Forging the Pact, over a hundred years later:

Trahearne: Where did that come from? This was supposed to be our way out.
Agent Zrii: The Orrians funneled us here. They've shown disturbingly advanced tactics ever since we arrived.
Trahearne: Commander, to me. I need your opinion.

From the Zephyrites in Season 1:

Zephyrite (1): The dragons are not inherently evil, children. They're natural. They're forces of nature as are the wind, the sun, and the lightning.
Zephyrite (2): But they kill so many people. Doesn't that make them evil?
Zephyrite (1): Have you not known wind or sun or lightning to kill people?
Zephyrite (2): Well, yes.
Zephyrite (1): There you have your answer.

Three of many, many examples. Just play the personal story and you'll see it's clear as day that Tyrians were not aware of Zhaitan's intelligence. Just because some of the crew of the Indomintable show intelligence, doesn't mean they'd assume that's common place or even associated with Zhaitan itself. Double so if most people who were in the battle and saw this didn't survive, or just assumed it was because of the individuals they had known in life that got risen.

Most Tyrians fully believed the Elder Dragons to be mere "mindless forces of nature" up until the Pact assault.

What is a fierce war for an Elder Dragon who's loved over 30,000 years, seen countries fall and view mortals as ants on average?

If you go out into your yard and begin hosing down anthills, is this a fierce war to you? Do you care about the water consumption? No, you wouldn't.

A fierce war to an Elder Dragon is a war with another Elder Dragon or equal being.

No, not because a few of the crew, but the whole Risen armada was showing very well organized intelligence, and they also follow strict order in close combat. They never attack mindlessly, if Zhaitan was mindless, he wouldn't even make up such a big armada with Orrian magic on the xebecs.

Nearly every encounter showed that the Risen got intelligence and was well organized.

EoD also showed Eir was well aware of Jormag's cunning manipulation.

If they lose and champion was killed, Zhaitan itself would be weakened, and it did happen when Whiting was killed.

Edited by Slowpokeking.8720
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Is the Maw explicitly describing as destroying the Risen that fall into the water? Or is it just swallowing anything? That doesn't mean the Risen are outright destroyed, it could be spitting them up back into ships it bites.

Think of it like an RTS. Zhaitan/Champion is focusing on the ships and crew, and set the Maw to auto attack/area attack underwater and left it there, friendly fire or no. It's doing more harm to the enemy then to the Risen.

Or like the Starcraft 2 heart of the swarm intro. The zerg don't care if an Ultralisk stomps on several zerglings, they got way more.

 

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Zhaitan's minions show a wide variety of mental capacity. From the champions, who can act more or less autonomously and hold a conversation to mere walking flesh machines who have a task and just do that (Bloated Creepers for example). 

The Maw probably was one of the later ones. Go there, swallow everything that is in the water. A simple command for a simple minion.

And why should Zhaitan care that some of his risen are destroyed as well? He can make many more. Besides it is not like this battle was such an important event for him anyway. The Pact was centuries later. So a couple hundred risen more or less - why care? Giving the Maw the ability to pick&choose would have been much more of an investment than some risen. 

In fact, we have plenty of real life examples of commanding officers not giving kitten about their troops and just shelling/bombing their positions. And more often than anyone should be comfortable with it is not out of desperation but just not giving a kitten if those guys survive or not and not caring enough to make sure your troops are save.

 

Edited by VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.
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3 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

Zhaitan's minions show a wide variety of mental capacity. From the champions, who can act more or less autonomously and hold a conversation to mere walking flesh machines who have a task and just do that (Bloated Creepers for example). 

The Maw probably was one of the later ones. Go there, swallow everything that is in the water. A simple command for a simple minion.

And why should Zhaitan care that some of his risen are destroyed as well? He can make many more. Besides it is not like this battle was such an important event for him anyway. The Pact was centuries later. So a couple hundred risen more or less - why care? Giving the Maw the ability to pick&choose would have been much more of an investment than some risen. 

In fact, we have plenty of real life examples of commanding officers not giving kitten about their troops and just shelling/bombing their positions. And more often than anyone should be comfortable with it is not out of desperation but just not giving a kitten if those guys survive or not and not caring enough to make sure your troops are save.

 

Zhaitan relied on its champions very much. It got weakened when some of its champions were destroyed.

The Maw was simply circling the ships and eating whatever fell off.

In this novel as well, when Whitning died and Indomitable was destroyed, the whole armada and The Maw wailed, and indeed Zhaitan felt it and it was a painful blow.

 

Edited by Slowpokeking.8720
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it was 'a champion' among many. Not as important than the eyes, mouths or the dragons. Yes, the armada fell. But in the greater picture, it wasn't that important. It was a nice source of bodies - but with risen already on the main continent, it wasn't needed as a source. Nice to have, not worth to spend massive ressources on. 

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12 minutes ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

it was 'a champion' among many. Not as important than the eyes, mouths or the dragons. Yes, the armada fell. But in the greater picture, it wasn't that important. It was a nice source of bodies - but with risen already on the main continent, it wasn't needed as a source. Nice to have, not worth to spend massive ressources on. 

Captain Whiting obviously is very important.

He is the commander of the Risen Armada, after his fall, the Risen took a long while to be able to launch such a big invasion again. I don't see how it's not important. His death also weakened Zhaitan itself.

Remember Risen were in Orr, to to expand to human territory and continue the blockade on the sea, the armada is very important. And it happened in 1253, which the Risen had not established much lands in the main continent yet.

Had the Risen won this war, they would pretty much destroy both Lion's Arch and Kryta's navy, and human lands would be left defenseless against the Risen, which is terrible to even think of.

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4 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

Zhaitan relied on its champions very much. It got weakened when some of its champions were destroyed.

The Maw was simply circling the ships and eating whatever fell off.

In this novel as well, when Whitning died and Indomitable was destroyed, the whole armada and The Maw wailed, and indeed Zhaitan felt it and it was a painful blow.

Zhaitan was weakened when the Eyes of Zhaitan and Mouths of Zhaitan were destroyed.

Not Generic Risen Champion #423.

Sure Zhaitan feels the death of other powerful champions, but Zhaitan isn't weakened by their deaths. And Zhaitan still doesn't care about Generic Risen Grunt #45376829473.

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7 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zhaitan was weakened when the Eyes of Zhaitan and Mouths of Zhaitan were destroyed.

Not Generic Risen Champion #423.

Sure Zhaitan feels the death of other powerful champions, but Zhaitan isn't weakened by their deaths. And Zhaitan still doesn't care about Generic Risen Grunt #45376829473.

But Captain Whiting was a big important figure, he was the commander of the armada, the one who was handling the full invasion against Lion's Arch and Kryta's navy.

When he died, the ship crumbled, the whole armada and the Maw, all made "a cry of unified anguish ", the next text was even more clear:

"As if the dragon itself was screaming".

Obviously it had hurt Zhaitan itself.

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2 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

But Captain Whiting was a big important figure, he was the commander of the armada, the one who was handling the full invasion against Lion's Arch and Kryta's navy.

When he died, the ship crumbled, the whole armada and the Maw, all made "a cry of unified anguish ", the next text was even more clear:

"As if the dragon itself was screaming".

Obviously it had hurt Zhaitan itself.

I think you're overstating the importance of a single group of about a dozen ships to an ELDER DRAGON THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD who lived through the creation and destruction of countless armies millions of ships worth of minions, who at this very time already had hundreds of ships of minions worth thanks to the Cataclysm.

And honestly, that text you quote is very clear indeed.

As if. Which is common writing for it isn't but it's similar, but either way, Cobiah had no actual way to know if Zhaitan was reacting to Whiting's death in any form. That was purely Cobiah's guesswork, As the narration was limited third person perspective, from Cobiah.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I think you're overstating the importance of a single group of about a dozen ships to an ELDER DRAGON THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD who lived through the creation and destruction of countless armies millions of ships worth of minions, who at this very time already had hundreds of ships of minions worth thanks to the Cataclysm.

And honestly, that text you quote is very clear indeed.

As if. Which is common writing for it isn't but it's similar, but either way, Cobiah had no actual way to know if Zhaitan was reacting to Whiting's death in any form. That was purely Cobiah's guesswork, As the narration was limited third person perspective, from Cobiah.

It was Zhaitan's main invasion force against the living at that time.

Strategically, only a few eyes and the mouth were more important than it. I also doubt the small dragons were created at that time.

Also if the war could be won here, the Risen would have destroyed Lion's Arch, and the navy of Kryta, the king was also on the flagship. Which would cause the humanity be in great danger and let the Risen be able to land on Kryta, start swarming the mainland of Tyria quickly.

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Strategically, this was nothing but a little skirmish for Zhaitan.

We are talking about an Elder Dragon. A being that worked on timescales human minds can't even grasp.

So he can't take LA now. Not a biggie. LA will still be there in 200, 300, 500, 1000 years. 

You are thinking 'we need to survive the now and maybe have peace for a couple of decades'. From Zhaitan's POV a couple of decades are the blink of an eye and there is no need to rush things - or worry about a miniscule setback that can easily be reversed next Monday (next monday: 200 years later). 

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4 minutes ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

Strategically, this was nothing but a little skirmish for Zhaitan.

We are talking about an Elder Dragon. A being that worked on timescales human minds can't even grasp.

So he can't take LA now. Not a biggie. LA will still be there in 200, 300, 500, 1000 years. 

You are thinking 'we need to survive the now and maybe have peace for a couple of decades'. From Zhaitan's POV a couple of decades are the blink of an eye and there is no need to rush things - or worry about a miniscule setback that can easily be reversed next Monday (next monday: 200 years later). 

"The fleet is lost."
"Who cares? I have the entire sea floor to get ships from and crew. I have a nation of buried dead to use"

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12 hours ago, Slowpokeking.8720 said:

It was Zhaitan's main invasion force against the living at that time.

Strategically, only a few eyes and the mouth were more important than it. I also doubt the small dragons were created at that time.

Also if the war could be won here, the Risen would have destroyed Lion's Arch, and the navy of Kryta, the king was also on the flagship. Which would cause the humanity be in great danger and let the Risen be able to land on Kryta, start swarming the mainland of Tyria quickly.

You're still over-emphasizing the existence of a single few dozen ships to an entity that is several tens of thousands years old, who's not even part of the conflict, who hasn't even tapped into the majority of its forces "at that time", and who wasn't even bothered by the death of its forces when the Pact was steamrolling them on its own territory.

 

And no, the king wasn't involved in that battle. Baede was still alive in DR, just on a sickbed. And Edair had at least two siblings, so humanity wouldn't have been in any danger. Nor would Zhaitan know or care about that stuff.

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6 hours ago, VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig. said:

Strategically, this was nothing but a little skirmish for Zhaitan.

We are talking about an Elder Dragon. A being that worked on timescales human minds can't even grasp.

So he can't take LA now. Not a biggie. LA will still be there in 200, 300, 500, 1000 years. 

You are thinking 'we need to survive the now and maybe have peace for a couple of decades'. From Zhaitan's POV a couple of decades are the blink of an eye and there is no need to rush things - or worry about a miniscule setback that can easily be reversed next Monday (next monday: 200 years later). 

Where is Zhaitan now? Is he still around?

The Elder Dragon which rely on its fleet to go outside. The Risen fleet never ever was that strong again, never was it able to threaten human land like that again.

He can't take LA now, and he lost the best chance to take it, which resulted Kryta being able to know its threat, not to fight with Lion's Arch again, and prepare for the Risen Fleet's offense. And later the mortal races were able to unify together to take Zhaitan down.

Seriously, I think you guys didn't even read the book and just trying to argue for the sake of argue.

Edited by Slowpokeking.8720
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5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

"The fleet is lost."
"Who cares? I have the entire sea floor to get ships from and crew. I have a nation of buried dead to use"

The fleet is lost, the best chance to take human land is lost. He lost a champion and he obviously suffered from losing Whiting.

Never had Zhaitan got such a powerful flagship like Indomitable and Whiting.  And he later got slaughtered by the Pact.

Did you even read the book? That Risen armada was much stronger than what we saw in the game, it never recovered from that. And it warned the humans to defend against the Risen, which finally resulted the Pact' formation and Zhaitan's own death.

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