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Condi Firebrand, How long will you be left to rot?


Mukizo.1269

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Firebrand used to be so fun. Sure one could argue it was overturned, but which class nowadays isn’t?
 

Everyone runs around happily with their virtuoso having perma ranged 42k dmg, boon rip, unlimited utility, teleports, invul, stealth, reflects and more. No one complains, no one cares. 
Yet cdps firebrand was gutted and left to rot. Its whole identity was stripped away and scraps were tossed back in pity, because apparently it was the most broken thing ever.

I almost see no one play the dps variant anymore. Tomes feels awful now, they used to be so fun. You have no control over the tomes, it feels so stiff and clunky to have them as engineer kits, the identity is gone. 
 

How long will you let it rot? 3 more years? I think it’s time to revert the changes. Make the dps lower if you want, just give us back our tomes. Remove stab from tome 3 if you want, just let us have fun.

Edited by Mukizo.1269
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  • Mukizo.1269 changed the title to Condi Firebrand, How long will you be left to rot?

Guess I'm doing it wrong when I play pure DPS condi firebrand in raids anyway.

And I guess Snowcrows and Hardstuck are wrong to still include it as a featured build. Better go and tell them, I'm sure they'd like to be spared the embarrassment of continuing to feature a non-viable build.

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11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Guess I'm doing it wrong when I play pure DPS condi firebrand in raids anyway.

And I guess Snowcrows and Hardstuck are wrong to still include it as a featured build. Better go and tell them, I'm sure they'd like to be spared the embarrassment of continuing to feature a non-viable build.

Perhaps the build does ok damage, the flow and feel, feels much worse. One of the best guardian players (especially firebrand) called Support Hero has made several detailed posts about why it feels bad to play cdps firebrand. Not just in my head as you make it try to sound like. If you disagree with all points I made great for you! Perhaps you didn't play the old version, or you somehow enjoy it more now.

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1 hour ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

Perhaps the build does ok damage, the flow and feel, feels much worse. One of the best guardian players (especially firebrand) called Support Hero has made several detailed posts about why it feels bad to play cdps firebrand. Not just in my head as you make it try to sound like. If you disagree with all points I made great for you! Perhaps you didn't play the old version, or you somehow enjoy it more now.

I played the old version.

If you're just running for pure DPS, the overall flow really isn't that much different to how it was before. Maybe you need to burn a mantra occasionally to refund pages, but F1-5-4-2 isn't really all that different from F1-2-5-4-1-2.

It does make it a bit more expensive to pull utility out of your tomes, but I generally find there's still plenty of pages unless things are really going to the Realm of Torment by express handbasket, and the option to refund pages by burning mantras is still there. On DPS builds, I've generally found it more convenient to be able to dip 1-3 skills on F2 or F3 and then be able to switch out freely rather than having any unused pages going to waste.

Also, I'm not sure if you were around when all the firebrand hate was flying around, but given how obnoxiously punitive most of the suggestions were, including by some self-professed guardian mains, we came out of it pretty much intact. We've gone back to the general (and blatently untrue) 'guardian never gets nerfed' memes rather than demands to basically destroy the specialisation, but we're still in a state where we'd probably be the premier quickdps, healdps, and dps-with-a-bit-of-support if it wasn't for how overtuned herald became. In exchange for needing to be a bit more judicious with pages, we gained a bit of flexibility and dodged not just a bullet, but a shotgun blast to the gut.

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10 hours ago, Mukizo.1269 said:

Perhaps the build does ok damage, the flow and feel, feels much worse. One of the best guardian players (especially firebrand) called Support Hero has made several detailed posts about why it feels bad to play cdps firebrand. Not just in my head as you make it try to sound like. If you disagree with all points I made great for you! Perhaps you didn't play the old version, or you somehow enjoy it more now.

As far as I knew, support hero's complaints covered the initial rework in November 2022. I read his article and agreed with him. Since then, arena net made some much-needed adjustments to the Tome of Justice page costs that greatly improved the situation for CFB. Subsequent changes to the trait line also gave us more options to regenerate pages. Has support hero published anything since then on the state of the class?

Personally, I've come to like the changes to the tomes, especially for WVW. Being able to pop into any Tome I want for the skill I need works much better for competitive modes. Tweaking my build for more pages also makes PVE fun for me again. I actually use the tome more often now, and can even blast away with searing spell whenever I need to burst. 

I find the mantra revert more problematic, considering the tome rework added some complexity to the spec. I'm fine with tracking pages and ICDs or mantra charges, but not both. 

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I like the way it is now myself. Much better flow than before. Now you can adjust your tome use without penalty whereas before you used one you HAD to use all of it or just waste it. Now if you hit F1 and then suddenly need F3 for one skill, you can then go back to F1 again. 
 

the only need I see with condi FB is the need for an additional condi.  Like we could have bleed on F3 skill 1 for example. 

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Here are my suggestions :

Bleed on axe autos are default, no need to pick Unrelenting Criticism trait.

Unrelenting Criticism is reworked. Spending all pages triggers Scorched AfterMath, and refreshes the cooldown of the skill.

Pages refresh every 4 seconds instead of 8.

The longest page skill on cooldown is displayed in each tome instead of the red mark.

A 1 second cd on tomes triggers after you exhaust all pages, this way you won’t  pop in and out immediately if you accidentally press the same button twice.

Renewed focus refreshes all pages and page skill cooldowns.

All tome abilities cost 1 page.

Quickfire trait trigger each time you spend 4 or more pages, instead of when granting quickness every 10seconds.

——————-

These changes would make it so you would actually spend time in your tomes, while not being forced to enter them to check the cooldown of skills. You would also not have to pop in and out constantly to spam f1, 2 and trigger quick fire. Cooldowns of page skills would be adjusted accordingly to that when all 5 pages would be ready (4x5= 20seconds) all 5 skills would be off cooldown, if you did the tome rotation properly.

 

 

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On 2/12/2024 at 6:57 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Also, I'm not sure if you were around when all the firebrand hate was flying around, but given how obnoxiously punitive most of the suggestions were, including by some self-professed guardian mains, we came out of it pretty much intact. We've gone back to the general (and blatently untrue) 'guardian never gets nerfed' memes rather than demands to basically destroy the specialisation, but we're still in a state where we'd probably be the premier quickdps, healdps, and dps-with-a-bit-of-support if it wasn't for how overtuned herald became. In exchange for needing to be a bit more judicious with pages, we gained a bit of flexibility and dodged not just a bullet, but a shotgun blast to the gut.

lmao the only build that survived was hfb and only for its' aegis/stab spam

the playrate for condi/q is laughable, nobody's enjoying nu tomes

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13 hours ago, Incurve Giidis.7829 said:

lmao the only build that survived was hfb and only for its' aegis/stab spam

the playrate for condi/q is laughable, nobody's enjoying nu tomes

They're still being used, and they're still effective. If the playrate's dropped, it's due to how strong and easy herald is.

Healbrand probably was actually buffed overall, it's just competing with heal herald.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I play heal Firebrand, celestial Firebrand, power Willbender, power Dragonhunter, and hybrid Willbender.  I can only speak for myself, but what keeps me from playing condi Firebrand, is that when I kit it out in full Vipers gear in order to get decent dps, it has the health pool of a jellyfish.  It's also slow AF!  I feel like I am walking in mud. 

There badly needs to be a core +vitality buff (like Dragon Hunter recently got) for Firebrand.  Also, just like Dragon Hunter and Willbender have +25% movement speed available, Firebrand needs the same.  Being forced into taking Superior Rune of the Traveler just to be able to walk at a decent speed sucks. 

As a general statement, Firebrand's Mantras are very direction oriented, so unlike others healers or boon givers, you need to be right behind your party - which makes movement speed important for positioning.  Movement speed is a pertinent problem for all Firebrand builds, and we shouldn't be forced into burning Tome Pages on swiftness for ourselves so we aren't walking like a turtle.  That's just cumbersome and ensures that pages aren't available when needed.

At least until these two issues are corrected, I have no interest in playing condi Firebrand.  It needs more health, and it needs better movement speed so I can actually take Runes that are meant for condition damage.  So how would I fix the problem?

Specific recommendations:

Swift Scholar: Movement Speed Increase: 25%

A movement speed increase of 25% can be added to the minor Firebrand trait Swift Scholar, just like Willbender has in it's minor trait Righteous Sprint.  Problem solved for all Firebrand specs.  

Imbued Haste: Vitality +180

A permanent +180 vitality can be added to the minor Firebrand trait Imbued Haste, just like Dragon Hunter had added to it's minor trait Defender's Dogma.  Imbued Haste would still retain the same increased attributes while under the effect of quickness.  If there is a balance concern about added vitality to a baseline trait stacking with Force of Will (which heal Firebrands take from Honor), then Force of Will can correspondingly have it's vitality reduced.

That's it.  Please consider making these two changes, and I'd be happy to give condi Firebrand a go.  Until then, it just feels bad to me, and I'd rather play something that is feels better.

Edited by Titan.7853
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